Need Advice/Feedback/Thoughts

[Jay B.]

Hello Forum Members,

I just joined recently and need some advice, feedback, etc. I have been reading your posts with great interest and have learned a lot from many of you.

My Background – I started taking classical piano lessons at 6, along with singing in the choir at church. At 14, I started playing professionally and at 19 had my own working band. I played mostly jazz, pop, rock, and some classical and musical theatre. At 27, I formed a group with three high-quality musicians that became the top event band in our part of Florida from 1987-1993. At 32, I retired from playing professionally and basically drifted away from music altogether.

My last keyboard was a 1989 vintage Yamaha SY77, the first one sold in my area, which I used to perform covers and record original music. I edited sounds, composed and arranged using MIDI, and generally played the heck out of that board.

Fast-forward 25 Years – for reasons not entirely clear to me, the desire to start playing, composing, arranging, and maybe even performing again has arisen within me again. I suppose it started by me helping a friend pick a keyboard as a Christmas gift for their child. I stumbled across the PSR-EW400 and watched the demos on YouTube. WOW. How could they make a keyboard that seems to sound really good SO CHEAP??? I started investigating all the other PSR S demos and that old urge to play and maybe perform started to rise up inside. (I also found this forum.)

It would have never crossed my mind to even think about an "arranger" style keyboard when I was playing full-time. I always had pro equipment like Rhodes, Yamaha DX7, Korg M1, a 300-watt keyboard rig, etc. It seems like today's arranger keyboards have progressed and become professional performing and composing tools. Apparently, pros still scoff at them, especially in the US.

The current situation – I made the transition to a solid professional life outside of music long ago, but believe I want to start playing, and perhaps eventually performing again – VERY part time. Arranging, composing, and playing only music that I like. I am concerned about my REAL level of interest, and thus the level of investment I should consider making. Another issue is the limited time I have to devote to music right now. A competent arranger keyboard seems to be a quick way to put music together, arrange and compose, but still sound professional, if not entirely original. Here are a couple of my questions:

- Should I get a less-expensive starter keyboard like a PSR-EW400/410 to gauge whether this is a passing fancy or not? My fear here is that I really get into this and quickly reach its limitations (polyphony, sequencing, sound quality, etc.) and will want something better quickly.
- Would a PSR-S975/775 be better? Much more expensive with higher capabilities, more polyphony, memory, tracks, etc. What if I spend the dough and then lose interest? I have only played a very few times in the last 25 years. Still, music speaks to me like no other art form.

Any thoughts or advice you might have for me would be greatly valued and appreciated.
Jay B., New Member

[SeaGtGruff]

Only you can tell whether this is just a passing (rekindled) interest or a lasting one.

The higher-end PSR-S models have better polyphony and voice-editing features than the PSR-E models, so if you're coming from a background in synths then you might enjoy the new PSR-S975 model if you can afford to go that high.

Otherwise, the PSR-EW400 certainly offers a great bargain, especially now that its price has been reduced by $100-- and it has 76 keys as opposed to just 61. Or if you can afford to wait a few months, once it's released the PSR-EW410 will be a better buy than the PSR-EW400 as far as features.

If you have any music stores near you that stock keyboards and-- more importantly-- have them set up on display for potential buyers to try out, you might spend some quality time there so you can test drive a PSR-EW400 or PSR-E453 (if they have one). You needn't do it all in a day; you could make multiple trips over the period of a week or two (if that isn't too inconvenient) so you have time to see how the keys feel, how the voices sound, how the functions work, etc. That should help you decide whether you think a PSR-EW410 or PSR-EW400 would offer enough to keep you happy.

Given your background, I'd normally recommend that you just forget about the PSR-E and go straight to the PSR-S975 if you can afford it. The only reason I'm suggesting that you spend some time noodling with a PSR-EW400 in a store is because you sound unsure about whether your rekindled interest will fizzle out, and the PSR-S975 would be a pretty expensive experiment.

[DerekA]

I had a similar experience (without the band part), I didn't play for around 10 years then picked it up again.

I went for an E443. I loved it, so much so that after only a few months I traded up to an S750 then to the S770 when it arrived.

Now I'm trying to justify a Genos ...

So I'd agree completely with Michael - how likely is it to be a lasting interest, can you afford to try the E and lose some money on the trade up to the S, can you afford to lose some money if you don't really use the S.

[Jay B.]

If you have any music stores near you that stock keyboards and-- more importantly-- have them set up on display for potential buyers to try out, you might spend some quality time there so you can test drive a PSR-EW400 or PSR-E453 (if they have one).

Yes agreed! I forgot to mention that the nearest music store would be a Guitar Center about 2.5 hours away. I called and the Keyboard guy there said he didn't have any arrangers on display. All synths and workstations. There is a Sam Ash about 3 hours away, or I could just order an EW400 from Amazon and try it out.

This is greatly exacerbating the problem - I think I could make progress in making decisions doing this. I may just have to take a day and go see...

BTW, thank you for your many contributions to this set of forums, I have read a great deal of your posts and gained a lot of useful knowledge from them. You are the very definition of a valued contributor!

Jay B.

[Jay B.]

I had a similar experience (without the band part), I didn't play for around 10 years then picked it up again.

I went for an E443. I loved it, so much so that after only a few months I traded up to an S750 then to the S770 when it arrived.

Now I'm trying to justify a Genos ...

So I'd agree completely with Michael - how likely is it to be a lasting interest, can you afford to try the E and lose some money on the trade up to the S, can you afford to lose some money if you don't really use the S.

Thank you. Fortunately money is not an issue, but wasting money is. If I could "test drive" an EW400, I think I would know quickly whether I could live with it for awhile. I just can't seem to find a store anywhere around that has one on display. May have to order and risk returning. Like yourself, I would probably move up fairly quickly, and would be OK with that.

A question for you - how long did it take for you to feel like you were anywhere close to the level you were before you stopped playing?

[panos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VfTTbb_p18
https://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_psr_ew400.htm
Hi Jay B,
EW400 looks a good one in a very nice price.
Michael can you download new styles to play on the usb or it can use just the preset styles?

76 Touch sensitive keys
758 Sounds
48-Note polyphony
220 Styles
Pitch bend
Rotating control knob
Reverb
Chorus and DSP effects
150 Arpeggio types
Live! Grand piano tone
Preset master EQ
Dual and split function

[gerarde]

Hay B,
Sweetwater allows no questions asked returns.
Where do you live?

Gerard

[DerekA]

A question for you - how long did it take for you to feel like you were anywhere close to the level you were before you stopped playing?

I took myself a bit by surprise at how quickly both the enjoyment and the ability came back. Just a matter of weeks. And then I wanted more than the E443 could give me. The voices actually sounded pretty good - certainly compared to what I had used before  - but I wanted more flexibility around styles, voice expansion and multitrack recording. The E443 can load new styles and multitrack, but those functions are quite basic. Fine if you only do it now and then, but quickly become frustrating.

[mikf]

Your background is a bit like mine. I discovered arrangers about 12 years ago, and I would advise you to jump in at the PSR 975 level at least. If you need to save some money, look at relatively recent used models from the psr range. I also think you should seriously consider a 76 key arranger. This might push the cost up a bit, but for a pro level piano player, it offers much more satisfaction. With the advent of the Genos, I think there will be quite a few reasonably priced 76 key used Tyros for sale
For playing at home or one man band gigs, these top of the line arranger keyboards are great funl.
In terms of what if you decide after buying it that it is not for you, I think that the net cost might not be any more than a cheaper keyboard if you get rid of it.  The PSR range have a decent re sell value.
Mike

[DrakeM]

Get yourself over to Ebay and look for any of the following arrangers to bid on:

Tyros 3, Tyros 4, Tyros 5
PSR-S950, PSR-S970

If you are not needing the MIC to sing then you might also consider the PSR-S750 or the PSR-S770

All of the above keyboards use the SFF2 format of styles. Thus you can use any of the styles here in our library in these keyboards(of which there are thousands). With any of these keyboards you can arrange any thing you want. You can then find out if you really want or need something bigger later.

If you don't stay with the keyboard you can sell it on Ebay and minimize your losses.

Do NOT buy a PSR-S900 ... that keyboard line had issues with the screen failing.

Regards
Drake

[SeaGtGruff]

Michael can you download new styles to play on the usb or it can use just the preset styles?

Yes, you can use external style files on the PSR-E4xx models.

However, you cannot play them directly from a USB thumb drive, but must first "load" them into the User Style memory. There are slots for 10 User Styles.

Two other important factors with regard to styles is that only two style variations (A and B) can be used, and only SFF1 style files can be used. The significance of these two limitations will vary from owner to owner depending on how heavily they use the auto accompaniment feature. If Jay comes from a background more in synthesizers than arrangers, the style limitations might not be a big deal for him.

However, as Derek mentioned, the Song Recorder is much more basic than the Song Creator feature of the PSR-S models-- and there is no Style Creator, either. Also, you cannot load new voice samples, only tweak the parameters of the existing ones.

The PSR-EW410 that's coming out in a few more months has the ability to record audio files on the keyboard itself, but the PSR-EW400 doesn't have that.

Most of these lacks and limitations can be essentially negated by connecting the PSR-EW400 to a computer and using it as a 76-key MIDI keyboard controller for playing virtual instruments and soft synths, which is what I do. On the other hand, if I consider all the money I've spent on various soft synths over the years, I could easily have saved it all and used it to buy a PSR-S model instead. That's not to say I don't enjoy my collection of soft synths, because I very much do; and as far as "sound design," I think I can do more with my soft synths than I could with a PSR-S model. But it's something to consider, especially if you prefer being able to do everything on the keyboard itself instead of needing to be connected to a computer, laptop, or tablet.

Jay, I don't wish to make you even more confused and undecided, but if you come from a background with synthesizers then you might also want to consider looking at the MX line, or even the MOXF line. The MX line is less expensive, and comes in three sizes-- 49, 61, or 88 keys. I haven't tried one myself to see how it feels, but the MX88 is supposed to have graded-scale hammer-action keys similar to a digital stage piano, and costs only $1000. The more powerful MOXF8 costs about $1700 new. The smaller MOXF and MX models cost less, but have synth-action keys.

[vanray]

ALL VANRAY POSTS REMOVED & DELETED

[panos]

Thanks for the reply Michael and the usefull informations about the differences of W to S series.
I find the PSR-EW400 very good for the price they sell it.
And if someone likes just the piano sound and not much the synthi sounds and styles,is better go for the DGX series with also good prices.
The S series is for using any style(rythm) you can find,or create your own styles and you can edit any voice the way you like it with a bunch of parameters to suit your taste for the voices  for each song you play.
As for the speakers,the more expencive models have better speakers.

From the time I got the s750 I almost stopped playing music on my pc with FL studio(DAW).
I am a home player and if I was a moderate skilled keyboard/piano player I would also gave the money for a Tyros 5 or a Genos because I like music very much.

[SeaGtGruff]

As for the speakers,the more expencive models have better speakers.

I forgot about speakers!

The MX49 costs only $500-- or less if you get the white model ($450) or a used model-- which makes it a very affordable option for someone coming from a synth background who wants to get back into music but isn't sure how long his interest will last. But the MX and MOXF synths don't have built-in speakers, so you'd need to buy external speakers or else connect it to something else that has speakers (such as a computer?).

[Jay B.]

  Great replies - thank you all!! 

I have some more questions, but will post in the appropriate forums. I will also follow-up and let you know what I decided to do. This will get me started. Once again, many thanks...

Jay B.

[SciNote]

I have never played professionally -- yet -- but I have quite a bit of experience with multiple types of keyboards, from the Wurlitzer and Yamaha home organs I had as a teenager, to the Arp synthesizers we used in my high school electronic music class, to the Yamaha DX7 I had in the 1980's, to the various Yamaha and Casio portable keyboards I have had since then.  After the DX7, I got a Yamaha PSR-500 around 1991, which was the first portable keyboard that I felt surpassed the versatility and sound quality of the DX7 (not counting the more esoteric, "out-there" sounds a DX7 is capable of), and I currently have a Yamaha PSR-E433, which is a predecessor to the E453.

I have been very happy with my E433, and if I do start playing professionally, I fully intend to at least start by using my E433 and possibly a couple small amps depending on the size of the venue.  I fairly regularly post performances on this keyboard in the Songs from Users section of this forum -- my most recent are the themes from Superman and Star Trek: The Next Generation -- both should still be available if you want to check out the sound of this keyboard (the E453 is going to be similar).  I generally only use the style for the drum track.  I have also done several multi-track recordings using this keyboard.  I generally start out by putting the main ideas in action using the keyboard's built-in 6-track sequencer, and then I record that to my computer using Audacity software, and then I use Audacity to add more tracks, if necessary.

I was drawn to the cool synth features available on this keyboard.  I think of the main and dual voices like oscillators on a 2-oscillator-per-voice analog synthesizer, but instead of just having sawtooth and pulse waveforms available, you essentially have over 600 sounds available to start with.  Then, you can use the keyboard's filter, reverb, chorus, and envelope generator functions to create your own sounds.

The E453 (and soon, the E463) adds additional DSP effects (like phase shifter and distortion), tunable scales, audio input, and audio out through USB, as well as 48 note (max) polyphony (instead of 32).  The E463 will also add a sampling feature.

But, yes, you may definitely check out some of the higher-end models, as well, as they have more advanced built-in sequencers, more polyphony, more tones and styles, and more powerful built-in amps.  If the PSR-S775 or S975 is a little more than you want to spend at this time, you can check out the PSR-S670, which usually goes for about $800 US (of course, that's about three times the cost of the E453).  The S670 does include live-control knobs, similar to what is on the E453.

[guitpic1]

Like many others, I started out with a PSR E4XX something or other.  Now I have Genos.  Best advice is save money, buy want you really want.

If I hadn't kept trading up, and losing money, the money I could have saved would have paid for my Genos.
😊

[Toril S]

Hello Jay B! I don't think the interest of playing will ever go away. Other thibgs in life may take its place for a while, but once a musician, always a musician! I think the wisest thing to do is to buy an instrument that has many functions and options, so that you will not reach the limit of the instrument so fast. Whether it is a synth or an autocomp keyboard, that depends on how you best like to use it. I am a hobby player, performing occasionally, and I got the S970, and am very happy with it. I rely much on the autocomp, - styles are the backbone of my music, so that is right for me. I wish you good luck in choosing. Just being on this forum and getting all the inspiration from your friends here will help you to maintain your interest in playing

[Bedj]

I always had pro equipment like Rhodes, Yamaha DX7, Korg M1

My advise would be to pick a Yamaha MX (49/61/88 ?). The sounds are the same in the three versions. And you can edit them more than on a Psr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh3Q8lfCtJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMEtJQC8ios

A cubase recording software is included and both work perfectly together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ko-T34KAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_rpGE5xUso