Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Does anyone know if the live control sliders send any type of MIDI values/info?

I'd like to control the drawbars in an external virtual instrument.

[Joe H]

Biggs,

I would suggest running MixMaster on your PC and open the MIDI Monitor... (you must turn it on) move the sliders and see what being transmitted by the Genos.

If you don't have it you can get it here:  https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

Another thought is to look at any MIDI Configuration file to see if there is any references on the Transmit page to the Live Control knobs or faders.

Joe H

[SeaGtGruff]

Note that if you can assign different functions to the Live Control sliders, the data being transmitted is likely to change based on what the sliders are assigned to.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

I would suggest running MixMaster on your PC and open the MIDI Monitor... (you must turn it on) move the sliders and see what being transmitted by the Genos.

Thanks, Joe! I figured I would probably end up having to run some type of monitoring program and just see what happens in real time.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Note that if you can assign different functions to the Live Control sliders, the data being transmitted is likely to change based on what the sliders are assigned to.

True, I considered that certainly could be the case. Alternatively, they could be set to output one type of data with a translator type of application, which is routing it internally dependant on what you have them set to control. Can't wait to find out!

[voodoo]

Yes, the slides send data to midi according to their assigned functions.

Example:

Moving the volume slider for part right 1 in the balance tab sends out midi control change #7 on the channel configured for right 1 in the midi transmit settings. This is very handy when using external midi sound modules and using the sliders to control them.

Uli

[pjd]

Hi --

MIDI-OX has some decent monitoring features with selective event filtering, etc. Does Sy*** capture, too.

-- pj

[Joe H]

Uli,

Yes the keyboard will transmit continuous controllers.  But I found on the S970 that some functions of the Live Control are NOT transmitted.  For instance the Arp gate Time and Arp Velocity.  And there is NO sy*** provided in the Data List Book to send this info via an external controller.

I requested the sy*** from Yamaha here in the USA, but they said there wasn't any such published data.  The Motif does provide sy*** for ALL arpeggio parameters in the Data List Book.  It's too bad Yamaha has omitted this info on the arranger.

Joe H

[voodoo]

Joe,

you are right. I am still trying to use midi and sy*** communication for my needs (in combination with an iPad).

* There are functions that are sent by midi, for example all changes to DSP parameters. That is quite cool. I can control the Drive parameter by external control.
* But others don't have midi messages. For example drawbar organ settings. This is sad.

Uli

[pjd]

But others don't have midi messages. For example drawbar organ settings. This is sad.

Hi Uli --

You've probably have seen it, but there is a Sy*** bulk dump message for organ drawbar settings. (Genos Data List PDF, page 112).

The problem for real-time control is that all drawbar parameters are packed into a single Sy*** message. It's not possible to change a single drawbar without sending the whole bloomin' message. If Yamaha want Genos to compete against clones, they need to provide drawbar control via MIDI CC.

I built a quick and dirty Arduino-based drawbar controller using this Sy*** message:
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/dangershield-drawbars/
but, I doubt that's what you're looking for. 

All the best -- pj

[Joe H]

It looks like there are 22 data bytes in the bulk dump string.  There are MIDI utilities that allow you send a dump request and save.

But I'm wondering if the draw bar settings are save in a registration... that would be the easiest way to save you custom organ settings.

Joe H

[voodoo]

Pj and Jow,

wow, you are fantastic. That is, what I was looking for.

1) I was looking for XG parameter request. I want to read out DSP settings and display/change them on iPad, using the iOS app "TB Midi Stuff".

2) With the organ Fluted data bulk dump, it should be possible to

* request the bulk dump with all settings
* change one parameter, for example the volume
* send the bulk back to Genos

This could be a way to change organ volume PRE DSP over Midi.
But, is there a way to request the organ flutes bulk dump? I don't see this request command in the listing.

Uli

[voodoo]

Some interesting comment:

I found out that some midi messages are only sent over port A of Genos. (!)

I always had my midi interface (USB or Bluetooth) at midi port B of Genos. There only messages for DSP parameter changes were sent (XG parameter change: F0 43 10 4C ...). But now I watched midi port A of Genos. And here also changes to organ flutes parameter are sent whenever a change takes place (Clavinova bulk dump: F0 43 73 01 ...).

So we can control organ flute parameters by midi. But as stated before, only all parameters at the same time.

Uli

P.S.: the sy*** messages that are needed for communication with Songbook+ are also sent only over midi port A. So connect midi interface always to port A.

[StuartR]

Some interesting comment:

I found out that some midi messages are only sent over port A of Genos. (!) the sy*** messages that are needed for communication with Songbook+ are also sent only over midi port A. So connect midi interface always to port A.

If this isn't documented in the reference manual, and not fixed in next week's update, please let Yamaha know.

[voodoo]

I found out that some midi messages are only sent over port A of Genos. (!)

Ok, some update to this:

The Sy*** messages concerning the transmission of organ parameters takes place on that midi port depending on the midi transmit settings for the part where the organ voice is loaded. So when the organ voice is loaded in part right 3 and part right 3 is set to transmit on port B channel 1, then the corresponding midi messages are sent to port B and not to port A. So it was my fault that I did not see theses messages.

However, the midi message containing the name of the registration bank, seems to be restricted to port A always.

Uli

[Joe H]

Ok, some update to this:

The Sy*** messages concerning the transmission of organ parameters takes place on that midi port depending on the midi transmit settings for the part where the organ voice is loaded. So when the organ voice is loaded in part right 3 and part right 3 is set to transmit on port B channel 1, then the corresponding midi messages are sent to port B and not to port A. So it was my fault that I did not see theses messages.

However, the midi message containing the name of the registration bank, seems to be restricted to port A always.

Uli

Unfortunately the arranger MIDI Data Formats are the worst Yamaha have provided.  There was more with the TG100, TG300, MU100R and MU128 sound modules which cost a lot less.  With the Genos there should be EVERYTHING included in the MIDI Data formats like with the Motif (which costs less BTW).  I'd be willing to bet the Montage come with a complete MIDI Format as well.

What we are talking about here is fixable with a firmware update.  Yamaha need to get with the program!



Joe H

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

With the Genos there should be EVERYTHING included in the MIDI Data formats like .....



Joe H

I see you guys are fluent in "Midileese". I am not.  You may know there was a YAMAHA BLOW CONTROLLER  to make wind instruments playable so that they really sound like a wind instrument which they do not  in case you cannot "blow" them. But the gadgets never caught on because it was a little "on-off-ish" and only affected volume. We all know a trumpet blown hard has a different  harmonic content than one blown at low volume so in addition to a VCA you need  VCF  reacting to the blow pressure. 25 years ago I got the schematics of  the  Steiner Master Touch and built a rack mount unit for the TYROS.   RH  2 and 3 are output on the TYROS/GENOS  AUX outputs, go through this unit into the amp mixer. But things evolve, and get smaller and lighter.  Now a Swedish firm has developed a midi unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U44kNtmI

but to use it you would have to be able to input midi control values into Genos for just the AUX output.  Does anyone of you midi experts see a possibility for that ?

Cheers
Kaarlo

[KeyboardByBiggs]

You may know there was a YAMAHA BLOW CONTROLLER  to make wind instruments playable

Oh man, this is awesome! I use to have the BC-1 and I have a WX wind controller. If this works with Genoe, I AM IN!

[Joe H]

I see you guys are fluent in "Midileese". I am not.  You may know there was a YAMAHA BLOW CONTROLLER  to make wind instruments playable so that they really sound like a wind instrument which they do not  in case you cannot "blow" them. But the gadgets never caught on because it was a little "on-off-ish" and only affected volume. We all know a trumpet blown hard has a different  harmonic content than one blown at low volume so in addition to a VCA you need  VCF  reacting to the blow pressure. 25 years ago I got the schematics of  the  Steiner Master Touch and built a rack mount unit for the TYROS.   RH  2 and 3 are output on the TYROS/GENOS  AUX outputs, go through this unit into the amp mixer. But things evolve, and get smaller and lighter.  Now a Swedish firm has developed a midi unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U44kNtmI

but to use it you would have to be able to input midi control values into Genos for just the AUX output.  Does anyone of you midi experts see a possibility for that ?

Cheers
Kaarlo

Yes I own 2 Yamaha BC2 Breath Controllers.  They send MIDI CC02 or CC11 and do control Volume if you try to play the wind instruments on the arranger.  They were designed to be used with the VL keyboards, sound modules and VL plug-in cards install in a keyboard or sound module.

The important thing to know is when used with the VL instruments, there is a lot more going on than just the Volume.  There are 16 VL parameters that potentially can be set to respond to the Breath Control message, Pitch Bend or the Modulation Wheel.  Things like, Throat Formant, Pressure, Ambouchure, Tonguing, Scream, Breath Noise, Growl, Harmonic Enhanser, Damping, Absorption.  There is also a "Breath Curve" that sets the sensitivity as well as 2 controls on the BC2 that allows you to adjust the response in terms of how hard you need to blow.

The WX wind controller has more options than the BC1, BC2 or BC3.

Also, depending on how hard you blow and how quickly you blow will change the nuances of the VL wind instrument.

VL is Virtual Acoustic Physical Modelling that was developed by Yamaha and Standford University in the 1990s.  It is a quite fascinating technology. It has an element of realism unmatched by even SA2 Voices in the Tyros and Genos arrangers.

Joe H 

[Darius]

Hello,
it has been tested and confirmed : Genos sliders do send midi messages out! I am personnaly glad to read this because it makes Genos more capable of working as a master keyboard that can drive other pieces of hardware or software (via MIDI).
To go further, some of us might need some kind of "translator" that takes the outcoming MIDI data from the Genos slider and turns it into another MIDI data, for instance into another channel, CC number, or even Sy***. How to do this?
MIDI-Ox has already been metionned by PJ, it is a small useful software that runs on Windows platform.
I personally like solutions that do not require a computer. It is not always possible not to use a computer, but in this case there are some interesting options available and I would like to share my findings with the community.
In case you own an IoS device (IPhone, IPad), give MidiBridge a try. It features "StreamByter" which uses a powerful programming language to manipulate MIDI data. StreamByter is also available as an Audio-Unit (AU) plug-in, to be used within any compatible music app. There is also a forum where users can get support.
Midiflow is another IOs app that can convert MIDI Data.
In case you want a solution without computer/tablet, have a look at the product range from iConnectivity. Very interesting is also the BomeBox from BomeSoftware. The latter can run files for data manipulation previously programmed on a PC, in stand-alone mode.
There are surely some others solutions out there. Those are just examples which I find interesting.
Regards,
Darius

[Joe H]

FYI...

The manufacturer can implement MIDI anyway they want... anything is possible.  I would think that an instrument in the Genos price range would have the capability to transmit or not transmit (enable / disable transmit) any MIDI message via the knobs or faders whether it be a continuous controller, non-registered parameter numbers, or sy*** strings. 

BTW... we can send sy*** messages (strings) to control a parameter "real-time".  I do this all the time with my E-MU, Korg and Yamaha instruments. The only time this would be a problem is sending multiple sy*** messages.  In that case we would want to send a "bulk dump" BTW... bulk dumps are NOT intended for real-time control.  In the case of my VL instruments, I programmed my PC1600x to send multiple sy*** strings for setting up the VL Voice.  And a pedal is programmed to sending multiple controllers to change the nuance of the VL Voice on-the-fly (this is the equivalent of the Super Knob on the Montage) . The PC1600x is quite handy.

Joe H

[Darius]

Hello,
is it possible on Genos to use the Live Control faders to send MIDI data exclusively externally?
My idea: get rid of "volume  jumps" when moving the faders.
I would need to dissociate the fader position and the volume control.
Basically:
-set the faders physically in a medium ("reference") position.
-memorize the values of the channel volume and the fader position
-calculate an increase or decrease of the volume according to a new fader position
(calculation using MidiFire/StreamByter on Ipad)
- send a channel volume value back to Genos
So, moving the fader above the reference position increases the volume, up to the maximum, proportionally. And vice versa when moving the fader down.
The prerequisite is that the channel volume data goes exclusively to the MIDI OUT of the instrument and not to the internal mixer. A kind of "Local controll OFF" for the sliders.
Is this realistic?
Darius

[Joe H]

You might look at the Midi Solutions Event Processor:  http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm

There is a free download of their Programming Tools: http://www.midisolutions.com/progtool.htm

The format for the script is an RTF... (Rich Text File).  The software comes with many example scripts. It's easy to program and edit your scripts.

This little box can remap MIDI controllers and other messages.  Even remap a controller to send a sy*** string.  I bought one of these devices to change the MSB 063  to MSB 036 for a custom dummy pack I created in YEM to call up Voices on my Analog plug-in card installed in my Yamaha MU128.  You can program it to process up to 10 different MIDI messages at once.  It will pass all other MIDI messages not addressed in the setup.

Once you have written a script, you must temporarily connect the box MIDI In to receive from the computer MIDI Out. After that you will connect your Genos MIDI Out to the MIDI In on the box and the MIDI Out from the box to your external MIDI device you want to control.

Joe H

[Darius]

Thanks Joe for mentioning the Event Processor by Midi Solutions.
Actually my question is not so much about how to translate MIDI information (using a hardware solution like the Event Processor or a BomeBox, or a software solution like Streambyter or others)
than about the whole idea of getting a MIDI information from the Genos fader (per MIDI OUT) while preventing the fader to controll anything internally.
I do not own a Genos (yet), I am just wondering if it is possible to "disconnect" in some way a fader from its internal assignation, like removing the Local Control of the fader.

If this is not possible I would update my strategy "how to get rid of volume jumps" (when changing a voice, a style...):
INSIDE GENOS
-assign a fader to a function that I do not need or do not use
-set the fader physically into a medium ("reference") position.
OUTSIDE GENOS
-use a MIDI converter (hardware or software) to memorize the fader position and the volume which I want to control
- monitor the fader moves and calculate an increase or decrease of the volume (proportionally)
- send the volume value back to Genos

Example:
Fader set roughly in medium position, say 60 (on a scale from 0 to 127)
Calling a voice on [Right 1] sets the track volume to 100 (for example).
To increase the volume of [Right 1] I move the fader up, from 60 to 75
=> that is +15 on a range of 66 available "fader units" (from 61 to 127) = +25%
Now I calculate the proportional increase on the volume : +25% on a range of 27 available "volume Units" (from 100 to 127) means a volume of 107 (=27x0,25+100).

Normally with a the fader set at 60 and a track volume at 100, you get a "jump" as soon as you move the fader : the volume will drop from 100 down to 61 as soon as the fader reaches 61.
Using the trick above, the volume change is progressive. No "jump".
There is one drawback: the fader should be in a middle position if one want to have room for increase and decrease.
So it might be required to program a switch that allows to re-position the fader in the middle position without affecting the volume change.
I am curious to read if anyone has already tried to programm something like this, and if it helps when playing live.
Darius.

[Joe H]

The "jump" issue has been discussed previously when the Genos first came out. It's sloppy programming on the part of Yamaha. It could be fixed with a firmware update. My 1998 vintage Peavey PC100x hardware MIDI controller can "replace" incoming MIDI controller data with it's 16 faders so there is NO jump in the current value being sent to an external device or DAW.

The other issue you have (which I understand well) won't be fixed at all I assume, because the Genos wasn't designed to be a MIDI controller. There might be a "workaround" if you have a MIDI patch-bay and can create a custom MIDI configuration on the Genos. The idea is to loop back the transmitted data from the keyboard and select what data the Genos will "receive" via MIDI. That way it will transmit controllers, etc. but not receive it back to Genos and effect anything on the keyboard.

If you have a good understanding of MIDI... that might be accomplished, but I doubt some other person is willing to try to set this up for you.

Joe H

[ChokDK]

Hi.
As a "newcomer" to using iPad and Tyros 5 owner I searched for this.
Did anyone actually found out something or got closer to a solution?

In my case, I "just" want to control the Hammond B-X3 (IK Multimedia Hammond clone) via those sliders.
It doesn't need all 100/127 messages, only the numbers of steps for the drawbars (8-10 steps I guess), so a possibility might be to read out all those Sy*** and "organize" them in 8-10 groups.
I am far from expert on midi though, but I really would love getting this to work somehow.

P.S. Sorry to take up an old thread, but in this case I think it would be better than start over in a new

(EDIT): Oh and this guy might be a "powerbank" of knowledge.
AFAIK this is the guy who made (at least some of) the code for Songbook+
https://twitter.com/petegoodliffe

Best regards
Chris

[StuartR]

Yes, the slides send data to midi according to their assigned functions.

Example:

Moving the volume slider for part right 1 in the balance tab sends out midi control change #7 on the channel configured for right 1 in the midi transmit settings. This is very handy when using external midi sound modules and using the sliders to control them.

Uli

I've recently discovered that the Genos CC 7 volume data that's sent out isn't enough to get to 0DB on my external module. Additionally, the exact same scenario on an SX-900 does send out a higher value which reaches 0DB using the same module.
This issue is the same on both Genos keyboards I've tried.
What's going on here. Anybody know?

[pjd]

Hi Stuart --

How are you measuring dB? Analog signal level of the external module audio OUT?

All the best -- pj

[StuartR]

Hi Stuart --

How are you measuring dB? Analog signal level of the external module audio OUT?

All the best -- pj

Sorry Paul, should have been more specific. I'm controlling the iPad version of the Hammond B-3X directly from my Genos, and it has a volume slider with a reference DB value box. The problem is that both the Genos and SX900 keyboards don't send the full range of values for CC 7. They top out around 103 to 105 and vary depending on the voice selected on R3. On the Genos, the CC 7 103 value won't get the B-3X to anything above -6DB. While that's marginally ok, I'd like to have the extra headroom. On my SX900, using the exact same setup, CC 7 goes a bit higher, allowing the B-3X to get to 0DB.

Damned if I can see any reason either keyboard won't output the full range of values for CC 7 which like most continuous controllers is 0-127. I keep thinking I'm missing something, like perhaps a velocity curve but wouldn't that be in the actual external module rather than on the input?

I've got 2 Genos keyboards and the result is the same on both and in no case will CC 7 send anything higher than about 105 (verified using MIDI scope).

Any ideas?

[pjd]

Hi Stuart --

Just looked at the slider CC output using MIDI OX on Windows.

At first, I thought maybe the slider potentiometers weren't full range -- maybe just shy of maximum voltage. However, I get different max values when sending different parameters with the same slider(s). Kind of rules out a hardware issue.

So, for example, sending CC#7 for "Rhythm1" using the first (leftmost) slider gets me full-scale. The value goes all the way up to 127 (0x7F).

If I change to the Style, M.Pad, etc. group, the sliders seem to have a max setting well below 127. I wonder if these parameters are treated specially?

Overall, the behavior doesn't seem consistent and I can see why you're frustrated. BTW, I also have IK's B-3X for iPad and eventually want to do the same thing!

Curious behavior -- pj

P.S. Will be watching football most of today, so I might not see your reply until tomorrow.