Is it me or something not quite right

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Well, I have practiced and practiced on the Genos and I am very happy with it.
I am making up registrations and getting in a circle with everything.
I have powered Dxr8' s at home and they are powerful, but use them at low volume and set them up right.
I have made six registrations now and what is holding me back is the quality of sound and sound volumes.
I got my registrations sounding great on headphones as I do not want to annoy my other half In the house with repetition.
Now when I hear then on my powered speakers everything sounded loud and tinny in my view.
I pondered for a while and went to the Eq and compressor section and fiddled and fiddled but could not get things right.
I got this covered now I thought and my brain said put one of the demo tunes up and see what the quality is like.
Ok, but not as I envisaged It and now I am scratching my head.
At this time when adjusting the registrations, I found that I was lowering volumes of everything as things seemed too loud and not integrating together .
By this time my volumes were under 40 on most sliders and things not going well at all.
I even went into the Style editor and lowered all kick drums and harsh snare drums and bass drum.
Everything now is going flat on me. Frustration now creeping in and a sense of nothing will work forever.
I have got these quality speakers and keyboard , but I am not getting what I desire.
Now I am thinking maybe I have the wrong style for what I want.
I changed the style to a country modern style instead of the 80s beat that I had for the Wait for me Marianne, Marmalade song.
This style now fits perfectly with what I am looking for and now the style sounded full and rich on my speakers and headphones.
Now I had to raise all the volumes to suit and It was up to 60s and 70s on the sliders.What!!
Previously ,I had noticed a volume Increase and thought to myself ,what is going on and that is why I lowered everything and got In a pickle

IS THE GENOS SUFFERING SUDDEN VOLUME INCREASES OR DROPS???

I have an inkling that if you play a demo tune and stop it and go back to your style things get louder on the style without touching any sliders.
I am not sure if that caused anything ,but suspect. OR, does the wave files interfere with midi volumes??  or I MIGHT OF TOUCHED SOMETING I SHOULDN'T OF. 
The compressor and eq does not operate when playing wave files.

I am now getting the levels right and full sounding, but It takes a lot of fiddles.

One thing that is prominent on the Genos, is that the Kick drums and bass end Is way over the top In the styles and a lot of styles need the kicks snares bass drum need lowering quite a bit as not to dominate everything.
Eileen noticed that on the Tyros5 and It is just the same on the Genos.

That is my experiences up to now  and I cannot put the flippin keyboard down, It's  addictive!!!


All the best
john

[jwyvern]

Hi John,
"IS THE GENOS SUFFERING SUDDEN VOLUME INCREASES OR DROPS???"

You must be aware of the effect of having Style Dynamics on since you mentioned it in a different thread but presumably you have put it off for this session?
With some Ty5 registrations where over the years I used custom voices, settings and dsp's to get the sounds more to my liking, I found they were too hot for using unchanged in Genos and had to set their balances down to about two thirds and almost remake them. Having done that I'm not aware of a mysterious tendency for Genos to change levels, apart from my unfamiliarity or error that is!    (Or of course bugs, but that' s just me being mischievous .)
A likely possibility which can significantly affect flatness of sound and global level requirements would be if the Master Compressor parameters have inadvertently changed from custom settings you were previously happy with. These can change back to (presumably weaker)  default settings if you have carried out the simple keyboard reset any time. (The same for Master EQ).

John

[Gunnar Jonny]

IS THE GENOS SUFFERING SUDDEN VOLUME INCREASES OR DROPS???

A little odd that this topic came up right now, after I noticed this happened last night and the day before.
When play, all that sudden the volume at right 1 (solovoice) drop, regardless of what voice chosen. Styles don't drop volume as far as I'm aware of.
Been looking into several options that possibly could cause it, without find any other solution than use the power off/on.
This did happens after play for a while, regardless of styles, if the volumepedal is connected or not, using speakers or headset do no difference.

Today it seem to work fine so far, but not used it much yet, so I'll see what happens later on.....

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  I have made it a rule never to set up registrations wearing head phones. The sound you hear is coming straight of the inside of the keyboard and not allowing for any change in the sound altered by your room settings ie. carpets and curtains etc.
  Years ago I noticed this, I would sit late at night setting up things and the next morning when I tried them with no head phones they sounded awful.
  I am finding the balance of the drums in styles a lot better than my Tyros 5. The kick drums are not so intrusive except perhaps what I call head banging styles which I would never use anyway.
  I am only using Genos speakers and find they sound great in my small room. Give me all the sound I need.

[soryt]

I have also very strange volume variations , also the Eq like to live on his own .
Ik hope this wil be fixed with the new "Update"

i never use a headphone .

Soryt 

[KeyboardByBiggs]

I have noticed something similar. I've tested two pairs of high-end headphones and two pairs of speakers, the Genos speakers and now a pair of high-end monitors I pulled out of my recording studio.

Eileen is absolutely right about the differences in pumping sound directly into your ear holes versus the effect of the acoustics in your room.

However, I believe I've picked up on something else. When you use the outputs to speakers I hear a difference in frequency response not attributed to my room. There is an annoying harshness right around the 3k-5k area (mainly, but there may be other offenders). On some notes on particular instruments, it feels like a pair of scissors have been shoved into my ears.

Now, I've been critical listening for years so I know I'm hypersensitive, but I imagine other folks have noticed this in some way and it could be amplified by room acoustics.

Also, when I record something internally and play it back on another system I don't hear this...so far anyway. I'll need to do more testing. Another piece of the puzzle that leaves me questioning the analog output stage on the Genos.

I'm hoping with some EQ fiddling in the Master section I can cancel this out (I've been trying a bit), but for some reason, it's a tricky one! I wasn't able to effect a quick fix like I expected.

I might actually have to hook up an analyzer and technically verify my anecdotal observations. I'll hook up a much more effective external EQ ahead of the speakers if need be. That's actually a low-cost solution if that would do the trick, or is needed. Running the outs to a quality direct box and then going balanced into the monitors could possibly have an effect as well.

It's not at the top of my priority list at the moment, but I'll share whatever I do, or don't, discover.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mr Biggs
I do know what you mean and I have noticed  on certain brass Instruments that some notes sound harsh,but you can disguise them by playing two or three notes.
I have sensitive hearing for my age and I cannot stand plates clashing together in the kitchen and that is like a pair of scissors in my ear or the telephone suddenly ring which makes me jump a mile high everytime.
It is going to be a lot of fiddling  and I am starting to win.
I have stayed with one registartion and keot beavering away and sounds good ,also i then have to have my headphones up to three quarters on the main keyboard volume to get a good comfortable sound. AKG's
Funny  though, now the music sounds good on my headset and speakers.
Something happened to my style and I still do not know what caused it to increase it's volume to sound really loud and harsh and all the other channels got boosted as well.
I changed to another style and the warmth came back and had to manipulate all the sliders again. .
I tried comparing with the demos and when i came out of a demo that is when trouble started with volume.
I suppose there Is a little green gremlin hiding inside the Genos.
I have got somewhere good with one registration and I will use that as a template and then fine tune later.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Hi Mr Biggs

Hey there! And it's just Biggs, no "Mr" required.

Keep us in the loop as you figure things out on your setup!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Biggs

Just being carefull not to offend
I will report back,keep in the loop

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
It is a battle sorting this keyboard out ,but hopefully getting really close to getting some music done.
I put my back out and groin Lifting that Tyros 5 out of my room  In November and I am still recovering .
May have a bit of sciatica as the back of my leg feels nervy and my posteria one side can be a little nagging.
I must be getting old

Things are on the up now.
I thought if the headphones sounded 100% after setting up a registration , the speakers would follow, but NO!!
I got the sound nice and warm on the speakers , but now the headphones are 75% up on the main Genos volume to sound ok.
After that  when recording a song It should not take too much mixing and that Is what I was thinking..
Hopefully will be banging out some music shortly. Still practicing hard and sudying Cubase. Blame that on Gibson.
All the Best
John

[mikf]

I wonder if you are seeing something similar to what I picked up on my CVP705. If you look across to the CVP section you will see the thread, - but briefly I was seeing a big difference between headphones and speakers, which did not happen on my CVP 605 or my PSR. The Yamaha technician came to the house and checked everything out and could not fix it.
I wonder if they have changed something in the output circuits that causes this. It would make sense that if they changed it on their last 'new' keyboard, the CVP705, they might roll out the same output design on the Genos.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi John,
  I have made it a rule never to set up registrations wearing head phones. The sound you hear is coming straight of the inside of the keyboard and not allowing for any change in the sound altered by your room settings ie. carpets and curtains etc.

Eileen is 100 percent on the money (as usual ). The sounds not coming from your speakers are collectively known as room responses. Quality headphones probably negate room responses by about 99 percent. To set up any audio device with headphones versus audio speakers is like comparing apples and oranges. Even quality near field monitors like the Yamaha HS8s are completely unreliable for setting up sound for a gig or even your living room (asumming you don't use them for home playing).

To achieve proper sound you need to play the keyboard through your everyday speakers or gigging speakers, set it up as best as you can, and then move on. I gig on a regular basis and I find that I must make minor adjustments on the fly for every show, even though I have set all my sounds accurately with my gigging speakers at home. There's always some instrument that's too soft or too loud!

[travlin-easy]

Take it from an old man that has done this thousands of times. NEVER, EVER set your keyboard's registrations and sounds using a headset, even the best headset ever made. Every venue, room, hall, even outdoors, has it's own unique EQ requirements. Sounds do all kinds of crazy things when they are allowed to wander around and bounce off things, and be absorbed by other surfaces. It used to drive me crazy to continuously change my EQ settings, but after a while, I learned to do this quickly and easily. Most of the time, I didn't have to make many changes, but there were those special venues that required lots of work to get those sounds just right.

The best and easiest way to do this is to make your own, high quality, diverse, midi file on the keyboard. Pick a song that has lots of neat sounds for the right hand and the backing must be hot. Then, before the crowd arrives, play that midi file through the sound system and while it plays walk around the room and listen carefully to the highest and lowest frequencies, then go back to the keyboard and make some changes and repeat the process until it sounds just right to you.

Good luck,

Gary

[Lee Batchelor]

The best and easiest way to do this is to make your own, high quality, diverse, midi file on the keyboard. Pick a song that has lots of neat sounds for the right hand and the backing must be hot. Then, before the crowd arrives, play that midi file through the sound system and while it plays walk around the room and listen carefully to the highest and lowest frequencies, then go back to the keyboard and make some changes and repeat the process until it sounds just right to you.

Now there's a brilliant idea, Gary!! I've never thought of doing that, and I'm an old guy too ! Thanks for the tip.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi To all that is helping
Still learning.!!

The Dxr 8's In my room are beasts and hard to tame.
I have done what Eileen has said and Gary.
I have got my first registration sounding great on the speakers and the lead sounds also which took some fiddling.Things needed a little more panning about In the stereo field and all good now.
I listen on my headphone and the sound is also clearer and warmer as I like.
I do like the headphones on when putting the basics together as repetition can annoy the other half In the lounge with the Tv on.
I wait until Sandra goes over mums and then have a blast as you need a little volume to get things right and get a bit of feeling with the rocky stuff. When I lower the volume for general playing the quality shines In these speakers for the size of my room.
Now I can use that first one as a template and get all my styles on the same level
I will get some songs up soon when I get sorted.
I do not know what updates the Genos will have on the 25th of February but I have noticed occasionally the sound jumps up even when everything is set or I have done something wrong.
Not sure on that one, but I have had two or three incidents of sound increasing suddenly..


All the best
john

[soundphase]

I do not know what updates the Genos will have on the 25th of February but I have noticed occasionally the sound jumps up even when everything is set or I have done something wrong.

I didn't experience this on Genos yet. But on T5. In fact, one sound (it could be R1,R2,R3,L but also multipads or style parts) changed as someone slightly move the cursors (below the screen for the T5).

Imagine the current cursor value (due to its current physical location) is 100, and you load a registration where the corresponding value for this part+effect is 10, suddenly the corresponding effect for this part goes from 10 to 100.

Soundphase

[Lee Batchelor]

Not sure on that one, but I have had two or three incidents of sound increasing suddenly..

Right there - that's a deal breaker for me. If I buy the Genos, I would need to learn how not to have that happen or Yamaha would need to fix it pronto. That's a problem for us gigging guys!

[pjd]

I've encountered some nasty sound jumps/glitches when switching into and out of the pipe organ voices. Ouch! I'm going to have to be very careful when playing live. This has to be due to the well-known sound switching issue (i.e., lack of Montage's SSS).

Sorry, John, I know this isn't the same problem that you're having. 

All the best -- pj

[Marcus]

I haven't experienced any unexplained volume changes yet with my Genos, but when I tried another person's registration to test an issue, it messed up some of my settings. In this case I knew why it happened and I easily corrected it.

Although I transferred all my Tyros 5 registrations to my Genos, all registrations, style/multipad links worked fine from the transferred USB stick. I then copied them over to the Genos User Drive, and again everything worked fine, however, if I now modify any of the transferred Tyros 5 registrations mixed with new Genos additions and modifications, the links are broken.

The links are broken only when the original USB stick is plugged into the Genos that had the original Tyros 5 registrations and folder configuration. Took me a while to figure out why my multipad links to my custom styles would work one day, but broken the next day. I finally realized that only when my USB stick was plugged in that the links were broken.

Typically with my Tyros 5 twinset, I would create and modify my custom Tyros 5 files at home and transfer them to my gigging Tyros 5 to clone the setting. Whether I read the new information directly from the USB stick or update the HD on my second Tyros 5, everything would obviously work perfectly because of identical Tyros operating systems.

Even though Tyros 5 files are compatible with the Genos, there are differences in the operating System (O.S.) and what parameters or new Genos settings can be saved within a registration. I am getting my Genos boards ready for gigging, but no way am I going to put up with having to remember to remove my updating USB stick from my gigging Genos each time.

My thought is, all registrations and settings must all be 100% Genos, with any remnants of Tyros 5 settings and links removed or totally overwritten. That is what I am working on now. All my Tyros 5 folders, files, and registrations are copied over to my Genos User drive. As I slowly modify and update my custom styles to the new Genos voices, drums, and DSPs, I am overwriting all the style multipad links to link directly with my Multipad folders and multipad on the Genos User Drive. Then as I did with my Tyros 5s, I can update and clone a second Genos without any chance of breaking any links if the USB stick remains plugged in or files copied over to the other User drive.

I am suspecting that global settings on one's Genos or unexpected volume changes can possibly be caused by remnant settings from transferred Tyros 5 registrations, because of differences in the OS. Most likely occurs when the transferring USB stick is plugged into your Genos. This is just guess and perhaps these issues will clear up in the next firmware update, but personally I am reworking all my transferred Tyros 5 registrations to be 100% Genos.

Marcus

[jwyvern]

I do not know what updates the Genos will have on the 25th of February but I have noticed occasionally the sound jumps up even when everything is set or I have done something wrong.
Not sure on that one, but I have had two or three incidents of sound increasing suddenly..


All the best
john

For sudden jumps up or down it's possible you are experiencing slider effects. This has been mentioned in a previous thread :

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42830.msg338263.html#msg338263

John

[EileenL]

When you transfer registrations over to user make sure you also transfer the Styles and Multi pads if third party ones. these will need to be relinked. Take the usb Stick out because what is happening is that the registrations are still using the links from the USB as you have found. If you want it to be completely independent then you must have everything on USER and re-link from there and then of course save again.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

"I gig on a regular basis and I find that I must make minor adjustments on the fly for every show, even though I have set all my sounds accurately with my gigging speakers at home. There's always some instrument that's too soft or too loud!"

Every room and hall and even garden has its own acoustics  (with the garden having the best acoustics, can't wait for summer just for that reason: we have no garden parties in Winter  )     I always make my sound check before the first guests arrive,  but even that is just a first step. When the place fills up the acoustics again change.  With my Senheiser  headphones (60  £) i feel I get close enough  to what I need for the sound check so I use them,  one reason being acoustic feed back at home.  BTW my Genelec Studio Monitors are over 25 years old and as far as I can hear they are still excellent. I believe active monitors must have gotten better in 15 years, eg. getting the same sound and volume from a smaller and lighter unit. Mine weigh over 15 kg.  Any good ideas anyone ?

Kaarlo von Freymann Helsinki Finlans

[travlin-easy]

That's a very heavy monitor at 15 kilos (33 pounds).  Take a look at the Bose S1, which recently became available. About $600 US, but sounds awesome, IMO. I just tested one, and it would be great as a monitor or for small parties of up to about 20 people. https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/speakers/portable_pa_speakers/s1_pro_system.html#v=s1_pro_system_black

Good luck,

Gary