Genos Bug - wrong insertion effect type after switching registration

[Dromeus]

Is the follwing bug already known?

1. Start with an empty Registration Bank.
2. As the LEFT voice choose 80sDreamStrings. Insertion effect is "ON" and type is "Symphonic 1". (We don't care for right voices, may be deactiveted)
3. Store in Reg 1, check only "Style" as the parameter group.
4. Now choose another voice with insertion effect = on and a different type. E.g. E.Guitar / 60sTexasBlues. Insertion effect is "ON" and type is "Mukti FX Distortion Solo".
5. Store in Reg 2, check only "Style" as the parameter group.
6. Launch the "Voice Edit" Display, so you can watch what is happening now.
7. If you switch between Reg1 and Reg2, the insertion effect type will toggle between "Symphonic 1" und "Mukti FX Distortion Solo" which is correct.
8. Now activate Reg1, insertion effect type is "Symphonic 1". Now set insertion effect to "Off", the effect type does now change magically to "Mukti FX Distortion Solo", WRONGO!!! If you turn on again the effect you hear the wrong effect.

[gerarde]

In your steps 2 and step 5, is the problem.
You have to select VOICE in the parameter group because 80sDreamStrings is a Voice not a STYLE.

Gerard

[Dromeus]

Thanks, Gerard. The LEFT voice has always been stored in the style group, and NOT in the voice group. Of  course, Genos is no exception. When you follow the example described, you will see that the registrations switch the LEFT voice as expected. The problem is with the insert effect type, and I believe it will affect the effect parameters too.

[gerarde]

Try saving both the voice and the style, that should work.

Gerard

[jwyvern]

Hi Dromeus,
I haven't followed your strict procedure because some of my "normal" registrations (which will have been checked for at least voice and style when memorised) exhibit that error.
So I load a registration which uses a left voice with insertion effect plus RH voices, some of which have insertion effects.
If, from the voice screen I turn off the left voice DSP (eg. Uni Comp Clipper Dist) the latter switches to E-piano Tremolo on Regs where I have noticed it so far. Turn back on and it stays with the Tremolo. It only happens with the left voice, if active DSP's are turned off on RH voices they do not change.
I usually wait to see what bugs remain after the first major update (beyond the one issued immediately after launch) rather than run ragged back to Yamaha from the start because certain aspects of a shaky OS  will be addressed regardless. If a few significant issues remain after that, then the telephone calls will commence
John

[Dromeus]

Thanks, John. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I just described a very simple scenario which exhibits this bug, so Yamaha (or anyone interested) may reproduce the bug easily.

[vlbrgt]

Try some more (more than two) registration buttons with only left voice changed and only style checked and you will see that setting the effect OFF jumps to the effect that was selected for the voice in the last button.

Regards
Etienne

[Dromeus]

Exactly, Etienne. This is why this bug gives you a hard time, when you do registrations using LEFT voices, where you switch sounds and one requires an insertion effect and the second one sets the DSP to "off".

[valimaties]

Exactly, Etienne. This is why this bug gives you a hard time, when you do registrations using LEFT voices, where you switch sounds and one requires an insertion effect and the second one sets the DSP to "off".

I don't think you think right good...

LEFT part as Right1 to Right3 are parts of Voice Parts, not style's part. It is, certainly, in the ACMP part (lower part, where style "reacts"), but it is not combined with style, and never it was... All voice parts are stored in OTS-es which are parts of Styles... Registrations are storing only what you have checked in the parameter screen of OTS-Registration Memory screen... If you don't check Voices there, the parameters for voices are not stored, and I think is a normal behavior...

It is like this or not?!

Regards,
Vali

[Dromeus]

It is like this or not?!

No, it is not. Frankly, I'm very surprised that people keep telling me I should use the Voice group. Why don't you try yourself or have a look at the datalist? To make that easy, see attached screenshots from the datalist. This applies to all parameters related to the LEFT part, see examples below. This has always been the case, for all Tyros models, mid-range PSRs and I believe even pre-Tyros models.

Hope this clears up things.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[DerekA]

However ..... if you continue to read the Genos data manual, you will see that Insertion Effect Type and parameter 1-19 is stored in Voice.

PSR 970 data manual says DSP 2-4 type are stored in Voice / Style. Similar for Tyros.

Looks like a change happened with the Genos - possibly unintentionally

[Dromeus]

Thanks, Derek, this is interesting. Obviously the datalist is not correct here. Recall that I wrote above:

7. If you switch between Reg1 and Reg2, the insertion effect type will toggle between "Symphonic 1" und "Multi FX Distortion Solo" which is correct.

which implies, that the insertion effect type for the LEFT part IS definitelty stored in the style group. I didn't check what happens with the insertion effect parameters. Will do that this evening.

[valimaties]

No, it is not. Frankly, I'm very surprised that people keep telling me I should use the Voice group. Why don't you try yourself or have a look at the datalist? To make that easy, see attached screenshots from the datalist. This applies to all parameters related to the LEFT part, see examples below. This has always been the case, for all Tyros models, mid-range PSRs and I believe even pre-Tyros models.

Hope this clears up things.

I don't take so literally any manual, or datasheet  or whatever do you want, because always, but always, the practice beats theory  
So, if there write as it write, try to send a mail to Yamaha and tell them the data sheet is wrong, or Genos has another bug (trough few others)

PS: I'm at work and I don't have my keyboard near, but when I go home, definitely I will test some LEFT Voice behaviors

Best regards,
Vali

[jwyvern]

When the data sheet says "style" against left voice it means you have to check the style box if you want registrations to memorise the parameters, the latter  being simple voice settings and the types of dsp to be applied to the left voice and their parameter details. No more than that.
It does not define where the DSP is stored. When you are setting up a left voice with a DSP you are still selecting from one of DSP's 1-19 that are reserved for voices- including the left- and song channels. 
They are not for inclusion in style parts,  you have to go down and select from dsp's 21-28 for those and they do not have an option to select a left voice!
John

[Dromeus]

I just checked my Genos. The datalist is misleading, to say the least.

The LEFT voice (sound, mix) including insertion effect type and all effect type parameters are stored in the Style group.

The RIGHT1/2/3 voices including insertion effect type and all effect type parameters are stored in the Voice group.

This has to be expected, because it was always that way, and changing this in Genos to store LEFT voice data in the Voice group would raise serious compatibility problems when loading Tyros registrations.

Once again I'd like to point out, that this is not the problem I'm talking about. This behaviour is fully correct and to be expected. The datalist should be more clear in that respect.

The bug is that you loose the effect type and its parameters when to turn the insertion effect off and on again. Exactly what I described in my first post.

[valimaties]

Let's see again at what I said above...

This is taken from page 28 in Genos Reference Manual:



So all parameters you want to store from Voice Part Screen (Left is a Voice Part) you have to checkmark "Voice" in Registration parameters screen... FullPoint!!!

PS: Seems some of engineers from Yamaha was drunk when programming registrations parameters and the assignments  (I joked )

Regards,
Vali

[jwyvern]

Vali,
It's not clear to me whether you are being ironic in challenging the wording in the manual (which may well be the case ) or whether you really believe where you say,

"So all parameters you want to store from Voice Part Screen (Left is a Voice Part) you have to checkmark "Voice" in Registration parameters screen... FullPoint!!!"


John

[valimaties]

Vali,
It's not clear to me whether you are being ironic in challenging the wording in the manual (which may well be the case ) or whether you really believe where you say,

"So all parameters you want to store from Voice Part Screen (Left is a Voice Part) you have to checkmark "Voice" in Registration parameters screen... FullPoint!!!"


John

I will go out from this subject, as I don't make me understood

Regards,
Vali

[jwyvern]

I will go out from this subject, as I don't make me understood

Regards,
Vali

Vali,
I genuinely wanted to know, it was not my intention to drive you away from the topic

John

[Dromeus]

So all parameters you want to store from Voice Part Screen (Left is a Voice Part) you have to checkmark "Voice" in Registration parameters screen... FullPoint!!!

I don't know why you insist on giving false information. What you say is definetly wrong. Full stop !!! If you're not willing to try that at the Genos, you may have a look at an article by Joe Waters: http://psrtutorial.com/lessons/playing/regist/index.html:

The "VOICE" group includes just about any parameter you want to set that affects the Right1, Right2, (and Right3 on the Tyros models) voices. But the left-hand voice is included in the "STYLE" group.

[valimaties]

Is the follwing bug already known?

1. Start with an empty Registration Bank.
2. As the LEFT voice choose 80sDreamStrings. Insertion effect is "ON" and type is "Symphonic 1". (We don't care for right voices, may be deactiveted)
3. Store in Reg 1, check only "Style" as the parameter group.
4. Now choose another voice with insertion effect = on and a different type. E.g. E.Guitar / 60sTexasBlues. Insertion effect is "ON" and type is "Mukti FX Distortion Solo".
5. Store in Reg 2, check only "Style" as the parameter group.
6. Launch the "Voice Edit" Display, so you can watch what is happening now.
7. If you switch between Reg1 and Reg2, the insertion effect type will toggle between "Symphonic 1" und "Mukti FX Distortion Solo" which is correct.
8. Now activate Reg1, insertion effect type is "Symphonic 1". Now set insertion effect to "Off", the effect type does now change magically to "Mukti FX Distortion Solo", WRONGO!!! If you turn on again the effect you hear the wrong effect.

As I am meant to give white hair to others, of course I did it in wrong way, and I have to apologize to Michael... Sorry man   
Now I arrived at home, near my Genos (after a few days) and the scenario is happening indeed.
It happening even if you have more than one insertion effects on the same registration on Left part! If you switch off the top one, the other will take place and you cannot turn on the effect which will load when you press the registration button.

Edited:
Ok... I have made multiple registrations... with different Left voices and different inserts... It seems that always, when you put off the Effect from Voice Gateway screen, it will load automatically the insertion effect from the Left part of the last saved registration...


Edited 2:
As I mention some weeks ago, I've already sent this bug to Yamaha support on email, as I will do with all.



PS: I will always use, from this moment in my emails, the term "Yamaha Arrangers Community", because they have to know we are here!

Regards,
Vali

[Dromeus]

No harm, Vali. Already got 50 shades of grey as a hair style...  Glad you're now near your Genos  . All the best.
Michael