Extremely Disappointed with Genos

[DonM]

I had a Yamaha FS500, my last organ.  If I had to transport it, I wouldn't trade a used Casio for it now!  Not because it didn't sound great--it was fantastic.  But Lord what a beast to move.  I had it, a Leslie, huge P.A. system, dollies which weighed a lot in their own right, etc.
I remember making a road trip and having trouble getting everything in a full-size Chevy van! 
It would be fun to have one at home I suppose, but I probably would opt for an arranger anyway, because of the joystick, the USB, the touch screen, the vocal processor, the midi-MP3-Wave player and recorder, the sequencer, the editing, the foot controllers, the programmable sliders...etc.
Also the  FS500 had a sorry excuse for a piano sound, and virtually no decent guitars, no break/fills, no multiple intros and endings, no four variations, the drums were awful...I could go on and on about the improvements that show up in even middle of the line arrangers.
The organ did have a neat little third keyboard, but that is easily achieved by just attaching one via midi if needed.
You also had to deal with proprietary memory packs, but we were glad to have them because before that there was NO external memory. 
Yes, organs were fine for pros back in the day, but once arrangers were invented, I never looked back, and  SAVED my own back at the same time! 
Sorry for rambling...not even relative to the original post.  I will sentence myself to an hour away from the forums.  It's lunch time anyway! 

[travlin-easy]

Lunch time - you must get to bed a lot earlier than I do! Lunch in about 10 minutes for me, 2 p.m..

All the best,

Gary

[DonM]

Lunch time - you must get to bed a lot earlier than I do! Lunch in about 10 minutes for me, 2 p.m..

All the best,

Gary

More like Brunch.  You are an hour ahead, but Susan made sausage balls this morning and I've been nibbling on them, while on my second cup of coffee.  Too cold for golf or fishing, or I wouldn't be here causing trouble!

[travlin-easy]

I got to bed about 1:15 a.m., then read a couple chapters of my latest Sheriff Bo Tully mystery book. Went to sleep about 2:20 and rolled out of bed at 9:30. I planned on not doing much all day today, and it seems like I'm right on schedule.

Happy New Year, old friend,

Gary 

[Paula]

 
the Genos sounds like it is a good key board ,I wouldn't want to go through the setting it up, I am sick and tired of tweeking
equipment :)Fred said his text files didn't fit in screen that alone would keep me from changing key boards I will keep what I got  unless they come out with one that I dont have to  tweek and change settings to !!!!
        Paula

[travlin-easy]

Paula, unfortunately, all arranger keyboards made during the past 30 years have needed some sort of tweaking and tuning in order to get them to sound right on stage. Same holds true for most sound systems and vocal processors as well. This is because everyone's hearing is subjective, just as music is, therefore, there is no right or wrong with these things. I have owned more than a dozen arranger keyboards of all makes in 3 plus decades of performing, and never had one that didn't require some tuning.

Happy New Year,

Gary 

[svpworld]

I've owned many top instruments from Korg, Yamaha, Roland, Nord.  Through a good speaker/sound system I can honestly say the Genos blows other boards out of the water, the sound quality is stunning.  I use Yamaha HS7 active monitors and they really do make the Genos shine.  I remember though the similar tyros speaker system when I had my Tyros 2, it never did justice to the instrument although I have to commend it on its compactness.  I am very surprised though that you feel the Genos isn't up to sonic quality compared to your Tyros, I'm guessing as others have said you are fond of a particular 'sound' that you've become accustomed to with the Tyros.  Personally I cannot imagine how  you could improve the sound quality of Genos, by the way I am a UK owner and like yourself I have had a range of instruments including double manual organs. I've also had a Kronos and the Montage from Yamaha, I can honestly say the Genos is up there with the top end instruments!   Anyway just wanted to add to the conversation, I can see there has been quite some activity on this thread and I would be very interested in knowing how you get on with the Roland instrument.   

Kind regards
Simon

[Paula]

 
Hi Gary
and that is exactly why I am keeping my Psr 970 and Tyros 4 ...I have had a few key boards as well beginning with the Technics  and then Korgs  I am sticking with what I have now, good enough they are all tweeked and when I set up a new song again I tweek  the styles and set up new ,I just do not want to start over to do all I have now no no no!!! really the psr 970 read the reg. well with murrys program very well ,how great to have him on this forum!!! I needed to change the peddles as all are set up different in the reg but that wasn't to much for me T4 and psr 970 it works fine, I am sticking to them they work fine and sound good at least my audience thinks they do
       Paula

[Paula]

 
I have not heard the Genos live !!! I am sure it is a great key board as so many have spoken highly of it I am also just to poor to have one
    Poor Paula

[XeeniX]

Hi,
Perhaps a little off topic but since there are a few dedicated piano players watching this topic and since the topic is about disapointing piano samples on certain Yamaha instruments (or not depending on the listener). How does the new CSP 150/170 sound? Does anyone has first hand experience with them yet? Lately I'm drawn more and more into piano playing. I do like to play with accompanied by a few styles every once in a while though. That is mainly due to the fact that I have more and more problems to "orientate" as in get a hold of where exactly my fingers are on the keyboard itself.

I know "muscle memory" in other words practise, practise, practise is the only solution but until that starts to kick in (old fox and such). With piano play I can sneak in some moments to "rest" while trying to figure out where I left my fingers pretending it is part of my own interpretation of a song I used to look every once in a while at the keyboard to orientate but lately (and it is getting worse by the month) I see a C almost everywhere when I do due to the fact some of the black keys are gone when I do. Making the left white key a C and sometimes even wondering who designed the keyboard since those 5 black keys aren't supposed to be  right next to each other These constantly changing gaps and my efforts to get used to playing totally blind are an extra handicap when playing with a timen based style accompaniment unless you use a free play style.

This all is reason for me to perhaps trade my T5 for an affordable CSP 170. A bit of a mix of both worlds so it seems. There is no dealer however anywhere near where I can go to and test. So before I go try and see where the nearest dealer with a showroom model is I thought to ask here

hope I didn't bore you all to death by now with an "off topic story/question"

any insights appreciated,

Peter

[adrianed]

Hi Folks,
I hope its ok to chip in but Gary should we retune the instrument to how we like it ??

If we are playing to others surely we need to wonder how they are hearing the music

You are a senior, I am also a senior and I know I have A hearing problem even with a hearing aid

Perhaps the young folk who set it up got it right

For myself the new Yamaha keyboard sounds too light but It might be because it suits the type of songs that the younger generation like to play and hear

All comments will be helpfull

Adrian

[travlin-easy]

Adrian, when I was performing in the Florida Keys, I encountered the spring break kids - barbie doll girls and guys in their early 20s at most. Ironically, the ladies wanted to hear Sinatra, Cole Porter, Jimmy Buffett and Zach Brown songs more than the newer stuff. I kept the dancefloor packed every Wednesday and Friday night while playing those kind of songs, so I guess my shot the Hell hearing is better than I thought it was.

All the best,

Gary

[OregonJim]

Vanray, The above remarks about home organs are, as you put it, your "personal opinion", and you are obviously entitled to that. However, one of the reasons that you perceive them as a "dying breed" is the fact that they became so hugely expensive. The other reason came about following the advancements in electronics which meant that things could be miniaturised and put into smaller and smaller cabinets. Until, eventually, they became so small and light that they could be picked up and carried around under one arm... enter the 'portable keyboard'! This was obviously a godsend to gigging musicians, who previously (with the help of assistants and a fairly large van!) hauled big organs around... and sometimes, separate Leslie cabinets as well!

However, as a non-gigging person, I strongly defend the whole concept of the home organ. Firstly, they are the very thing that got me interested in playing music in the first place. Secondly, there is something about them that is difficult to explain. There is that unmistakable warmth/depth to their sound... perhaps it's something to do with their speaker system, or the cabinet? I think Pianoman's analogy of a V8 muscle car vs a small-engined car is an excellent comparison! You only have to watch a few YouTube videos of the likes of Claudia Hirschfeld playing the Wersi Louvre, and also Chris Hopkins... who now has the ex-Blackpool Tower Ballroom's Wersi Louvre at home. And in terms of appearance, being so much larger and having two or three manuals and a pedal board, home organs simply look more impressive. They seem to exude a certain aura of grandeur that many people are proud to show off in their homes - whilst the portable keyboard, on the other hand, is considered a mere toy by comparison. I fully understand and support DavidB's desire to go for a Roland Atelier AT-800. Like I said in my earlier comment, if I won the Lottery, a top of the range home organ would be high on my shopping list too!

To DavidB: If/when you do finally decide on having a Roland AT-800, then I'm sure you will be very happy with it, and I wish you many years of enjoyment with such a magnificent instrument!

Regards,
Will

  I completely agree with this.

  As for the rest of this thread, I only have one thing to say:  If one is unable to connect with their instrument, then little good can come out of it.  It doesn't matter how many people feel differently, or what opinions they have.  Even if the problem is nothing more than a dislike for the color of the instrument, or some other feature that may seem insignificant, it is only the person PLAYING the instrument who can connect with it.  If that is not possible, then it is time for a different instrument - whatever the reason may be. 

[DonM]

The very BEST of us can make mistakes.  I've been married three times. 

[Will49]

I had a Yamaha FS500, my last organ. It would be fun to have one at home I suppose, but I probably would opt for an arranger anyway, because of the joystick, the USB, the touch screen, the vocal processor, the midi-MP3-Wave player and recorder, the sequencer, the editing, the foot controllers, the programmable sliders...etc. Also the  FS500 had a sorry excuse for a piano sound, and virtually no decent guitars, no break/fills, no multiple intros and endings, no four variations, the drums were awful... I could go on and on about the improvements that show up in even middle of the line arrangers.

Hi DonM. I totally agree. It was in about the same era that I had the mighty Kawai DX900 and, although it was a fabulous instrument in its day, it too had similar limitations to those you refer to with your FS500. In fact, compare the DX900 in terms of sonic realism and all the other features to my current Tyros 5/76 and the huge advancement in technology becomes clearly obvious! However, we mustn't forget that both your Yamaha FS500 and my Kawai DX900 date back to the early 1980s, and that organs (as well as keyboards) have also benefited from technological advancement over the years... huge touch screens and all of those things you mention. In fact, the sonic realism, depth/warmth of some of the sounds they produce can be staggeringly impressive! The sad thing tough is that some of the top models (e.g. the Wersi Pergamon OAX1000) could set you back about £36,000! A Roland AT-800 like DavidB is considering is also way over my budget, but I've seen & heard one live and I sure as heck would love one.... maybe one day!

By the way, to all of the happy Genos owners here: Like everything else, the Genos may not be perfect in every single aspect for some. But as far as arrangers go, it may also be the best that money can buy at present. And my rambling on about organs (and my full support of DavidB's decision to look for a Roland AT-800) is not in any way an attempt to degrade the Genos at all... keyboards and organs are totally different animals – perhaps a bit like trying to compare a Subaru WRX STI to a Bentley Continental GT!

Regards,
Will

[pjd]

As for the rest of this thread, I only have one thing to say:  If one is unable to connect with their instrument, then little good can come out of it.  It doesn't matter how many people feel differently, or what opinions they have.  Even if the problem is nothing more than a dislike for the color of the instrument, or some other feature that may seem insignificant, it is only the person PLAYING the instrument who can connect with it.  If that is not possible, then it is time for a different instrument - whatever the reason may be.

Great comment, Jim!

I think this is at the essence of what I wanted to say about playing the CVP-709. The CVP-709 produced a rather complete experience of playing an acoustic piano for me. The keybed action, tone generation, sound system and underlying software created a genuine "key to sound" experience and connection.

I'm really digging Genos as primarily a synthesist and organist. I don't regard myself as much of a pianist. However, the CVP-709 as the full experience is closer to the GA1 acoustic grand at the church than the Genos. Not a slam, just a statement of difference.

All the best -- pj

[DonM]

Hi DonM. I totally agree. It was in about the same era that I had the mighty Kawai DX900 and, although it was a fabulous instrument in its day, it too had similar limitations to those you refer to with your FS500. In fact, compare the DX900 in terms of sonic realism and all the other features to my current Tyros 5/76 and the huge advancement in technology becomes clearly obvious! However, we mustn't forget that both your Yamaha FS500 and my Kawai DX900 date back to the early 1980s, and that organs (as well as keyboards) have also benefited from technological advancement over the years... huge touch screens and all of those things you mention. In fact, the sonic realism, depth/warmth of some of the sounds they produce can be staggeringly impressive! The sad thing tough is that some of the top models (e.g. the Wersi Pergamon OAX1000) could set you back about £36,000! A Roland AT-800 like DavidB is considering is also way over my budget, but I've seen & heard one live and I sure as heck would love one.... maybe one day!

By the way, to all of the happy Genos owners here: Like everything else, the Genos may not be perfect in every single aspect for some. But as far as arrangers go, it may also be the best that money can buy at present. And my rambling on about organs (and my full support of DavidB's decision to look for a Roland AT-800) is not in any way an attempt to degrade the Genos at all... keyboards and organs are totally different animals – perhaps a bit like trying to compare a Subaru WRX STI to a Bentley Continental GT!

Regards,
Will

Hi Will,
I will admit I have not sat down at an organ since the happy day mine left the building!  I'm sure they reflect the advances in technology available now.
I'm totally happy with my Korg PA4X.  Nothing about the Genos, especially the price, is tempting me to want to change.
I will most likely be in the market for the S970 replacement, but as a second or backup arranger for me.  That will most likely be another year though and a lot can happen in a year!
Best wishes by friend!
DonM

[Will49]

Nothing about the Genos, especially the price, is tempting me to want to change.
Best wishes by friend!

Hi DonM, The price was a no-no for me too. As mentioned in earlier comments, I had the choice of parting with almost £3,000 on top of my T4 to have a Genos, or a mere £949 with my T4 for a mint T5/76... the latter won! Some happy Genos owners here may, of course, say that Genos is a huge improvement over the T5, and that it has been worth every penny it cost them to change... and I respect their sentiments and wish them every happiness with their choice. 😊

Best wishes to you too DonM,
Will

[DavidB]

I am selling my Genos, speakers, stands, expansions...

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42188.0.html

Thanks for looking

[hammer]

I am always amazed at people's opinion about the sound of pianos.  I played with both the Dallas and Ft. Worth Symphony Orchestras and often we had very famous piano players as guests.  Often they brought with them their personal piano and some even brought there own piano tech or tuner with them!   It was amazing to hear a Bosendorfer, a Fazioli, the old Steinways, and even the older Baldwins and hear how great they sounded when properly tuned and tweaked to the performers specs.  So, what does a really good piano sound like?  Well, which one?  In what environment? Played by whom?  Is there ANY arranger keyboard that even comes close to recreating the sound of these fabulous pianos? 

I do own the Genos and I will agree that the pianos are not real good and Yamaha really should address that issue.  Seems they went crazy with "effects" on the pianos.   That said, they certainly work and for most audiences it makes no difference.

Deane

[keynote]

There are adjustments on the Genos that can make the Grand Piano(s) sound more to your liking including EQ and Compressor settings.

The acoustic Grand Pianos on the Genos are a step up from the Tyros 5 but there is always room for improvement needless to say. Having said that there are many many excellent voices on the Genos. Here is the latest video of Peter Baartmans playing the Genos in Eindhoven, Netherlands. It's almost an hour in length but it's worth watching in its entirety in my opinion. He plays all kinds of voices including the CFX concert grand. Enjoy!

Peter Baartmans latest video playing the Genos

Mike

[Dromeus]

Piano sounds are subject to personal preference, so different opinions are quite natural. I admit I was never a fan of Yamaha piano sounds and certainly didn't like the key action of Yamaha digital/stage pianos. In fact I'm a big fan of Kawai stage pianos and maybe my ears are tuned to that sound...

When judging the sound of an arranger's piano I really think you should not use the internal keyboard, but connect a decent graded hammer action keyboard via MIDI, because it makes a huge difference. You just can't get the dynamics needed for piano sounds out of a weighted synth action keyboard.

Having said that, I must say I like the Genos pianos. Certainly better then the T3 pianos (that's where I came from arranger-wise). Anyway, from an arranger I would not expect a piano sound comparable to a first class digital piano or even a high-class piano VST plugin, that offer subtleties (e.g. string harmonics) which are of no importance when the piano is part of an arrangement produced by Genos.

[XeeniX]

Thank you Mike!

Now that is what I call a real demo. Almost no silly jokes, in his own language sitting down between people and nopt on a podium. Without an "amaaaazing" arpeggio on a 5 second delay. And recorded analog. Making the sound much more honest and real. This is the first Genos demo I have seen where at least for me it is clear that the instruments on the Genos whether the same as on a T5 (choir and a few others) or new (kino for example)  really produce a better sound. Honest also as in Peter trying to steer away from the multi pad question since there are no real changes there.

All things set in real time not with some carfully prepared registrations and lots of audio files which are not very realistic for most of us. This, for me, is a demo worth watching if you want to prepare yourself before you go to a dealer to test it yourself and make a final judgement. Still not sure if I one day will go for one or wait for the next one but at least it improved my personal opinion of the Genos quite a bit.

kind regards,
Peter

[Wouter1972]

Comparing a Genos sampled CFX grand piano sound to the real thing: an acoustic piece of equipment selling for over 117.000 pounds.....

[DavidB]

Comparing a Genos sampled CFX grand piano sound to the real thing: an acoustic piece of equipment selling for over 117.000 pounds.....

Nope, comparing it to a CVP709 which when I bought it cost exactly what I paid for the Genos.

[DavidB]

Well, probably the end of an era, and I'm certain my time on this forum. As soon as I sell my Genos I won't have a Yamaha instrument in the house, and that after owning them for over 25 years.

Anyway, it's been fun, even though the Genos is not what Yamaha want you to believe it is, especially not with its useless speaker system, so I wish everyone all the very best and leave you with a picture of what just found its way into my house. I've already made a more pleasing noise on it that I've managed to make on a Genos in the last few months. If you're interested in buying my perfect Genos, with no faults and extras, then please PM me and I will get an email.

Good luck to you all, really, I don't know how long I will have the pleasure of the Atelier but I'm hoping for at least a few years. Only God and my cancer treatment can decide though.

All the best.





[attachment deleted by admin]

[travlin-easy]

David, good luck with those Cancer treatments, and I sincerely hope all goes well for you. Stop in and say hi once in a while and let us know how you are getting along.

Good luck,

Gary

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

It is all down to getting a decent set of speakers
The Genos ones are like a transistor radio to me
The Genos is 100% and quality

[Will49]

...I wish everyone all the very best and leave you with a picture of what just found its way into my house.

Hi DavidB. Wow, now that looks the business! Like I've said before, electronic organs are what got me interested in learning to play a bit of music in the first place - and that's many, many years ago now! Sadly though, their price gradually got way beyobd my reach.

With its dual manual and pedalboard (plus that beautiful cabinet), it looks a far more impressive instument than any portable keyboard could ever do! And I've seen and heard an AT-800 too, so can vouch that it has beautiful sounds and some excellent features!

I wish you all the very best with your cancer treatnent, and hope that you have many years of enjoynent with such a magnificent instrument!

Best regards,
Will

[Dromeus]

It is all down to getting a decent set of speakers
The Genos ones are like a transistor radio to me
The Genos is 100% and quality

That's good advice!

Back in the day I bought a PSR-2000 instead of a PSR-9000. For the money saved I got me decent speakers (2.1). Did even make my PSR-2000 shine . I use theses speakers still today, what a worthwile investment.