Genos Clock

[tyrosaurus]

Just out of interest, if the keyboard is not connected to a network, and you set the date/time manually, does it continue to show the correct time after turning the power off and then back on using the panel switch?

What happens if you remove all power to the keyboard by also turning off the incoming AC supply (off at the wall socket, or by removing the AC lead)?   Is the time still correct when powered back up, or is it necessary to reset it manually?

If the clock does show the correct time after the latter,  the keyboard must contain a battery to maintain the internal clock when all power is removed, which will typically need replacing after 5 to 10 years.


Regards

Ian

[EileenL]

Yes the clock dose show correct time after turning off all power. Upon switch on you will see the right time.

[zionip]

Just out of interest, if the keyboard is not connected to a network, and you set the date/time manually, does it continue to show the correct time after turning the power off and then back on using the panel switch?

What happens if you remove all power to the keyboard by also turning off the incoming AC supply (off at the wall socket, or by removing the AC lead)?   Is the time still correct when powered back up, or is it necessary to reset it manually?

If the clock does show the correct time after the latter,  the keyboard must contain a battery to maintain the internal clock when all power is removed, which will typically need replacing after 5 to 10 years.


Regards

Ian

Hi Ian,

Genos keeps its time once set.  Since my Genos stays home, I set it to get time from the network.

The Genos owner's manual mentions:
Battery Notice: This product MAY contain a small nonrechargeable
battery which (if applicable) is soldered in
place. The average life span of this type of battery is approximately
five years. When replacement becomes necessary,
contact a qualified service representative to perform the
replacement.

Although there is no specifics on battery replacement procedure on both the owner's and reference manuals of Genos.

Thanks,
Paul

[pjd]

Although there is no specifics on battery replacement procedure on both the owner's and reference manuals of Genos.

Hi Paul --

This info is usually in the Yamaha service manual. I would love to see the service manual at this point. 

-- pj

[zionip]

Hi Paul --

This info is usually in the Yamaha service manual. I would love to see the service manual at this point. 

-- pj

Hi pj,

Yamaha usually does not provide service manual of a new product until some time later.  I did not mention the service manual of Genos as we cannot find the PDF file online yet.

Thanks,
Paul

[pjd]

Yamaha usually does not provide service manual of a new product until some time later.  I did not mention the service manual of Genos as we cannot find the PDF file online yet.

Hi Paul --

I usually order the manual from Yamaha 24x7 here in the US. Seems like last summer, Yamaha 24x7 changed their order policy requiring people to order the service manual by phone. None of the order codes worked through the on-line order portal and the policy change was confirmed by the phone rep.

Hope this info helps anyone (in the US) looking to get service manuals for their arranger.

All the best -- pj

[tyrosaurus]

Genos keeps its time once set.  Since my Genos stays home, I set it to get time from the network.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for replying, but if you have the keyboard connected to a network, then the time will be available from there, so even if it is 'lost' when the power is turned off, it will be automatically set again whenever you turn the power on.

I want to know what is the situation if the keyboard is not connected to a network and the clock has been set manually!

Any real time clock needs power to continue to run.  When the keyboard is on, obviously there is power.
If the keyboard is in 'standby' power may still be available to run the clock from the AC mains.
If all power is removed by turning it off at the wall or removing the AC lead, what happens then?  That is what I want to know!

If the clock continues to run without any external power source, there must be an internal battery.  However it may be that the time is lost when external power is removed and needs resetting manually each time that the keyboard is turned on. 

The 'Battery Notice' in the  'SPECIAL MESSAGE SECTION' of the Owner's Manual simply says 'This product MAY contain a small nonrechargeable battery which (if applicable) is soldered in place...'. 

The same message appears in the manuals for all models (presumably Yamaha are too lazy to change it for specific models!), but there is definitely no battery in any of their arrangers released in at least the last 10 years, so you can't rely on it to confirm whether or not there actually is a battery!


Regards

Ian

[zionip]

Ian,

I totally understood what you meant, and I appreciate that you have brought to our attention that Genos owners may have overlooked the potential need for battery replacement.

I did the testing before replying to you - set Genos clock manually without getting time automatically from the network, then powered it off, unplugged the power cable, waited for 5 minutes, reconnected the power cable, powered it back on, and Genos kept its time, which Eileen already replied.  I just prefer the convenience of getting time from the wireless LAN, which will work even when the built-in battery is totally depleted.

There is definitely a battery inside Genos to keep the clock and other basic settings.  So even if we can get proper time from wireless LAN there are other basic settings that need the battery to retain them.  This makes battery replacement inevitable in the future.

I think the detail information of battery will be addressed properly with the service manual of Genos.  According to the description of pjd, we will have to call Yamaha to order a copy of service manual if we are interested in getting one.

Thanks,
Paul

[tyrosman]

thats funny  Paul as there aint one in Tyros 5 the clock does not show when im out gigging it only showes in the house when connected to WIFI

[tyrosaurus]

Hi Paul,Thanks for posting back.

I hadn't spotted Eileen's reply  , which is why I clarified my question in my reply to you.

You have done exactly what I was thinking (including leaving the unit without power for a while), so as long as you are sure that the keyboard didn't connect to your network to automatically reset the time when you turned it back on, then the clock must be battery powered.

My interest in this stems from the potential for using it to 'date/time stamp' modified files.

I don't know if the Genos OS sorts/displays such files alphabetically in selection screens like other models, or if it sorts them by date/time first!

Since the Yamaha OS does not provide any means of selecting the sort method for lists, if it sorts them alphabetically then the correct time/date doesn't really matter as far as using them on the keyboard is concerned, but if for some reason it sorts them by date/time, things would get a bit mixed up if the correct time was not always available, especially if you import files from a computer which would have the correct time stamp!

BTW, in the UK Yamaha will not sell/supply service manuals to end users.  It seems that their policy is to only sell them to service technicians!  I had to buy a PDF copy of my Tyros4 SM on eBay!


Regards

Ian

[zionip]

thats funny  Paul as there aint one in Tyros 5 the clock does not show when im out gigging it only showes in the house when connected to WIFI

Hi Tyrosman,

Genos always shows time on the top right corner of the main screen, regardless of whether we set time manually on Genos, or get time for the wireless LAN automatically. 

There is an "Initialize" option on the setup of wireless LAN on Genos that wipes out the existing wireless LAN configuration and leave Genos at a "not connected" state on wireless LAN.  I made use of this feature to test the time display scenario for Genos.

I tested both situations, connected or disconnected on wireless LAN, on Genos, and it always show current time on the upper right corner of the main screen like this:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/beK7XIyOZ5ncLNqZ2

Thanks,
Paul

[Marcus]

Everyone is forgetting the fusion reactor power system Yamaha placed in the Genos. I figure power to the internal clock should be good for at least 10,000 years and keep time to international atomic clock. There are rumors that Yamaha was thinking far ahead into the future and will provide a Genos firmware update to upgrade to a potential intergalactic atomic clock standard.

Regards, Marcus

[zionip]

Nice joke, Marcus.

Paul

[tyrosman]

Hi Tyrosman,

Genos always shows time on the top right corner of the main screen, regardless of whether we set time manually on Genos, or get time for the wireless LAN automatically. 

There is an "Initialize" option on the setup of wireless LAN on Genos that wipes out the existing wireless LAN configuration and leave Genos at a "not connected" state on wireless LAN.  I made use of this feature to test the time display scenario for Genos.

I tested both situations, connected or disconnected on wireless LAN, on Genos, and it always show current time on the upper right corner of the main screen like this:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/beK7XIyOZ5ncLNqZ2

Thanks,
Paul

Im talking a bout tyros 5 ill be getting genos next year also what im meaning there is a clock on tyros 5 it showes in the house but not at a gig

[zionip]

  Im talking a bout tyros 5 ill be getting genos next year also what im meaning there is a clock on tyros 5 it showes in the house but not at a gig

Hi Tyrosman,

I understood that you were talking about Tyros 5, with time display at home, but no time display at gigs.

I just provided my test results on Genos that when you upgrade to Genos, you will find that it displays time both at home and at gigs - this may be one of the enhancements that you can find on Genos.

Thanks,
Paul

[tyrosman]

ah Fantastic paul thanks for that

[EileenL]

Hi Willie,
  On gigs with Tyros 5 you probably don't have the dongle plugged in so you would lose the time clock. On Genos the wireless connection is built in.

[valimaties]

Sorry for my question, but what is the purpose of this thread ?! Why is so important the clock inside a Keyboard even if it's Genos, Tyros, PSR, or whatever ?! You do not want to watch on a mobile phone or a hand-clock when you're on gigs or what ?! It's hilarious and non important thing, in my opinion, really

[zionip]

Sorry for my question, but what is the purpose of this thread ?! Why is so important the clock inside a Keyboard even if it's Genos, Tyros, PSR, or whatever ?! You do not want to watch on a mobile phone or a hand-clock when you're on gigs or what ?! It's hilarious and non important thing, in my opinion, really

Vali,

You must have skipped this post on this thread, where Ian explained why he started this discussion:
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,41475.msg326120.html#msg326120

Thanks,
Paul

[maartenb]

There is definitely a battery inside Genos to keep the clock

Not necessarily. There are so called gold capped capacitors that can hold some charge and don't need to be replaced.

I just can't imagine Yamaha being so stupid to put a battery in a Genos that needs to be replaced every five years. The Yamaha design teams consist of smart people.

If Yamaha went the gold capped capacitor route, it would mean the Genos can hold the time for a day or so. Maybe even a couple. That would be more than enough to hold the time from home to gig, or even from gig to gig.

Nice new feature of the Genos!

I'll wait for (someone with) the Genos Service Manual to see how Yamaha really implemented this time keeping feature.


Maarten

[zionip]

If the clock does show the correct time after the latter,  the keyboard must contain a battery to maintain the internal clock when all power is removed, which will typically need replacing after 5 to 10 years.

Hi Ian,

It looks like Genos does not use any battery to store time.

Genos service manual p.2:
"If the power switch is not turned on for longer than about a week, the time (clock) setting may be lost."

Search of "battery" on Genos service manual returns nothing.

Thanks,
Paul

[EileenL]

A battery is not needed for the clock to work. Don't forget as well as telling the time this also puts a time and Date stamp on what ever you are saving and makes it easy to find them by the date you created them.

[tyrosaurus]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the update on this.

When the keyboard is not powered up,  power is required to maintain the correct time/date, and although the amount of power required is very small, the RTC (Real Time Clock) must be getting it from somewhere!

It sounds as if Maarten is correct about a 'supercapacitor' being the likely source of this power.

It's no big deal, but I think that it's useful to know, and I would have thought that it was worth warning users about this in the Owner's or Reference Manuals that are available to all customers, rather than hide it away in the Service Manual, which Yamaha UK won't even sell to 'mere' customers! 

They could have replaced the totally irrelevant 'Battery Notice' in the 'SPECIAL MESSAGE SECTION' of the Owner's Manual with the 100 or so character statement from the SM!

Perhaps they haven't bothered because they know how few people can be bothered to read any manual!   


Regards

Ian

[EileenL]

On Tyros 5 the clock was controlled by having the wireless dongle in the keyboard. That is no longer needed as Genos wireless connection is built in.

[pjd]

Hi --

The Genos real time clock (RTC) is a Ricoh R2051T-E2-F which communicates with the main CPU via 2-wire I2C serial bus. The R2051 has automatic switch-over from the main power supply to back-up power. In this case, the back-up power is supplied by a 0.33F 5.5V DX-5R5H (Elna) supercapacitor. Yes, that's 0.33F which means that this is a BFC, even though it's just a leetle button. (I'll let you work out the meaning of "B" and "F".    )

Time before data loss without main power depends on how fast the RTC can run down the capacitor. I'm not going there (yet).

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. Source: Genos service manual

[zionip]

The specs of the supercapacitor:
http://www.datasheetlib.com/datasheet/1153308/dx-5r5v334_elna-co.html

These capacitors can be recharged and soldered, and look like these:


Thanks,
Paul

[DerekA]

Sorry for my question, but what is the purpose of this thread ?! Why is so important the clock inside a Keyboard even if it's Genos, Tyros, PSR, or whatever ?! You do not want to watch on a mobile phone or a hand-clock when you're on gigs or what ?! It's hilarious and non important thing, in my opinion, really

Well, it was important enough for you to feel you had to contribute to it ...

[StuartR]

Hi --

The Genos real time clock (RTC) is a Ricoh R2051T-E2-F which communicates with the main CPU via 2-wire I2C serial bus. The R2051 has automatic switch-over from the main power supply to back-up power. In this case, the back-up power is supplied by a 0.33F 5.5V DX-5R5H (Elna) supercapacitor. Yes, that's 0.33F which means that this is a BFC, even though it's just a leetle button. (I'll let you work out the meaning of "B" and "F".    )

Time before data loss without main power depends on how fast the RTC can run down the capacitor. I'm not going there (yet).

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. Source: Genos service manual

Service manual? Where do we get the Genos service manual?
🤗

[zionip]

Service manual? Where do we get the Genos service manual?
🤗

You can call Yamaha customer support to order it.  It costs $25.78 in the U.S. - about $17 for a PDF on a CD, the rest is shipping cost.  It takes about 11 days to get it.

For U.S. customers, the phone number is 714-522-9000.  For other areas / countries, you can Google search it.

Thanks,
Paul

[pjd]

Sorry for my question, but what is the purpose of this thread ?! Why is so important the clock inside a Keyboard even if it's Genos, Tyros, PSR, or whatever ?! You do not want to watch on a mobile phone or a hand-clock when you're on gigs or what ?! It's hilarious and non important thing, in my opinion, really

It's a minor concern, but may be a practical concern for some users. Let's say you travel with your keyboard and it's disconnected from a power source. Eventually, the back-up power provided by the supercapacitor will be depleted and the (real time) clock will lose the correct date and time. When you power up, the Genos may not connect to the network at your destination and the Genos will not pick up the date/time from the network. Under those circumstances, files, etc. will not get the correct timestamp.

It will be interesting to see how long the back-up power holds (once I have a G to test). I turn off all power at a power strip in order to be green and reduce the "phantom load" in the house. (Which is still outrageous due to that frapping set-top box which never really sleeps.) Plus, I intend to gig out with the Genos.

Or, maybe you decide to unplug your Genos when taking a long vacation away from your house. Many folks live where thunderstorms and destructive lightning are common and need to unplug valuable electronics to prevent damage.

Hope this helps -- pj