About Genos' Drums

[Seagull29]

About the Genos drums, for example the 80's kit in the list provided in YEM, we note a multitude of samples from EMU, DMX and LM2, some of which are dubbed on different notes but certainly tuned differently, which makes savings!

This partly answers the question of whether there are new sounds or whether they are old detainees. Both, my general! It would be necessary to be able to have access to the kits of T5 to compare but I am pretty sure that we must find a large part of the samples of Genos. If some feel the courage, with XML NotePad, you can access the mappings and samples. I started to see with the first kit of the list but it is a work of titan!
That said, it would be nice to have them to adapt the batteries of the T5 to effectively use the styles of Genos, at least question mappage, even if the sounds are not the same, although it is possible, with references samples and machines from which they come, to be able to rebuild kits adapted to the T5. At least, in a way, we know why the drums are different on the Genos. I forgot to specify that for each element of the kit, we have all the parameters of EQ, effects etc ...
So, if someone has the courage .....!

[DrakeM]

Hi Seagull

I think you are using a "translator" program .. as your post is very difficult to understand.

I do not have a T5 but the new Genos drummer as described by Yamaha said the new drummer varies the sound of the pressure the drummer uses when hitting the drums. Thus giving it the sound like a Real live drummer would do. The Extra Notes found in the Genos RHY2 channel are those SOUR notes you hear in the T5 (and other keyboards) but in the Genos they are used to create the new sounding drummer patterns. You simply need to Delete those SOUR notes to get a perfect regular "old" sounding T5 drummer.

No mapping is needed ... just use your ears and you can hear for yourself that is what is going on.

Also most to the SOUR noting end with a "-1" after the note signature.
It looks something like this in the channel editor:
A-1 
C#-1

Regards
Drake

[Jørgen]

Hi

NEWS...

My brand new software program "Revo Drum Cleaner" at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/rdclean/index.htm will do the job automatically...

Enjoy the "new" styles in your "old" keyboard... 

Jørgen

[XeeniX]

It's all the "- notes"

I found out while adjusting styles that problems/really strange noises always occured at point were these notes were inserted. At first I tried transposing them to other values but 3 days ago I tried simply removing them from the note event list with Mixmaster. I was editing them manually and now thanks to Jørgen I can spare my eyes a little to check for notes as Bb-1 and C-1 and the likes that make the strange noises on T5 and other arrangers. As Jørgen already stated you will still need to remap / tranpose some notes when certain kits are use because due to the mappings some of the Genos kits will still cause slight problems when simply replacing them. The PopPerc kit is such a kit that if it used in a Genos style needs other adjustements due to a different mapping then most kits. You really have to transpose some note events even after removing all the - notes. Some of the other kits are easier and will not need big adjustments when replaced with other kits. It will still be a lot of work to turn them into nice styles when doing it in style creator. Even if you use 3rd party programs to edit these remaining wrong notes in a style it won't be easy. But it's worth it I think

Thanks Jørgen for automating that removal of the "- notes"! That was a big step forward in reducing the work!

regards,

Peter

[Seagull29]

Hi,
thanks for infos and thanks for new soft. I think Revo Drums are simply Round Robin way with dispatch between 2 tracks of rythm (1 & 2) by difference of velocity. But with a view of mapping, I think we can reproduce the different playing drums. If we can have all informations about parts in styles of Genos, it coud be possible but I'm not sure of that. I'll try to make one kit with indicated samples in, it's not very difficult to find them on internet (Drumulator, Linn etc...). And Yamaha identified all samples by drum machine in list of kit's elements ! It's easy enough to read them with XML NotePad.

PS/I'm sorry, my english is not very good, High school is very far from now !

[Enildo]

Hi

NEWS...

My brand new software program "Revo Drum Cleaner" at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/rdclean/index.htm will do the job automatically...

Enjoy the "new" styles in your "old" keyboard... 

Jørgen

Thanks again for such great help Jorgen!
 
Greetings,
Enildo

[DrakeM]

Hi  Jørgen 

Thank you very much for creating the Revo Drum Cleaner. I will get it later tonight.

Regards
Drake

[Jørgen]

Hi Drake

I use another approach giving the same result.

My program does only one thing: It sets Velocity = 0 on some events in the drum channels in styles. You know which events 

This mehtod will make the "noise" in these channels not audible. And voila...

Enjoy

Jørgen

PS: Having programmed MIDI software for 20 years, this was a 2 hour project... 

[pjd]

My program does only one thing: It sets Velocity = 0 on some events in the drum channels in styles. You know which events 

Hi Jørgen --

Thanks for writing the cleaner. I'm just now getting my head around the new drum kits and your program.

I hope that people are not ignoring all of your warnings about note remapping. Those so-called "noise notes" are "noises" in a legacy drum kit, but are high hat or snare drum notes in the new Revo kits. In order to get a full result, people must remap these notes to the equivalent drum instrument in a legacy kit. Otherwise, all of the high hats will disappear, for example.

If people use a DAW to remap notes, they should also learn about your split and splice program. DAWs strip out (delete) the Yamaha proprietary sections of a style file (OTS and CASM). They should first split the style file into MIDI and non-MIDI parts, remap the drum notes in the MIDI part, and then splice the MIDI and non-MIDI parts together into a complete style file. [I know you know. I'm just saying this for other's benefit.  ]

Thus, I like your approach of setting the note velocities to zero as a quick solution. A determined person still has the opportunity to remap the notes.

One question and possible suggestion. Does cleaner write out a MIDI Type 1 file? When I read it with SONAR, all the MIDI events are mapped to a single track. If I then save the MIDI data as Type 0 and read it again, SONAR separates the channels into tracks. SONAR always splits Yamaha style files into tracks (by channel), so I'm wondering if there is a Type 1 vs. Type 0 issue?

Thanks, again, and my hat is off to you for the quick hack -- pj 

[XeeniX]

Hi PJ,

As soon as the Genos styles were posten I started trying to edit the drum note events in order to get a "good enough" sound and noticed the minus (-) note events were the ones causing a problem when replacing Genos drum kits with T5 drum kits. I am using Michael's Mixmaster for that btw so no need to split and splice there. I do have Sonar Platinum as well but Mixmaster is more specialized so to speak in pure Yamaha style edits. While I was going thru note events I noticed the minus note events where usually causing a "funny noise"  problem. So I told Jørgen about my findings and asked him if there was a possibility to automate this procedure. He did the hard work by programming a tool since I know really nothing about that.
Of course you will loose some parts this way but it usually leaves the backbone of the (non dance/edm) styles intact. This way most people who want to convert these styles can at least have a reasonable go at them and end up with a pretty neat result most of the time.

Even when you use revo cleaner there will still be quite a few notes left that need a remap. All note events with "3", "4"and certainly "5" need a checkup because some of them also need a remap. To be honest: No matter what you do and even if you are a drummer with arranger knowledge. You will not get the same sound as on a Genos. The end result however may still be very satisfying

Btw. I'm absolutely no techie. I'm only determined when it comes to digging into things I find interesting trying to solve them and in doing so recognizing, every once in a while, certain patterns by deducting

regards,
Peter 

[pjd]

Hi Peter --

Thanks for writing more about your process. Hopefully, more people will join in the fun! 

I'm glad that you mentioned Mixmaster, too.

I'm pro-conversion although I will probably get on the Genos train myself early next year. I converted a bunch of old DJXII patterns to PSR/Tyros. That was a total bear because the DJXII kits had radically different maps than PSR/Tyros.

All the best to ya and keep plugging away!

-- pj

[Jørgen]

...
Thanks, again, and my hat is off to you for the quick hack -- pj 

Thanks Paul

Well, it IS some kind of a "dirty" hack I have programmed to get a decent fix - but not a 100% fix.

The latter requires an enourmus programming effort which requires much more knowledge about drumming than I have.

I leave this to the "experts" - Peter and others - to continue refining the styles.

For that purpose I choose to set velocity = 0 instead of deleting the MIDI drum events. The Revo drum are still in the style, but they are muted to zero.

Programatically it is easier to mute than to delete too, as muting will not "disturb" the timing between events.

Regards

Jørgen

[Jørgen]

...
Does cleaner write out a MIDI Type 1 file?
...

Hi

No. Styles must be Type 0 files...

Jørgen

[voodoo]

Jørgen,

thank you very much again for your great work for making this technology understandable and usable. Highly appreciated. 

Uli

[pjd]

Well, it IS some kind of a "dirty" hack I have programmed to get a decent fix - but not a 100% fix.

Hi Jørgen --

By the way, I meant "hack" with the old school meaning -- a clever, useful program written quickly. I realized later that others may not have interpreted my remark as a compliment. On the contrary! 

I'm kind of puzzled by the notations in the Data List drum tables. I'll post about that tomorrow; This iPad isn't up to the task.

Back to Sunday football -- pj

[Jørgen]

Hi Jørgen --

By the way, I meant "hack" with the old school meaning -- a clever, useful program written quickly. I realized later that others may not have interpreted my remark as a compliment. On the contrary! 

I'm kind of puzzled by the notations in the Data List drum tables. I'll post about that tomorrow; This iPad isn't up to the task.

Back to Sunday football -- pj

Hi

I have read "hack" as a compliment, sure!

Maybe it is because I am an "old" boy - 68 - I always thought at the word "hack" the same way as you do!

Jørgen

[XeeniX]

Pj,

I just finished an experiment to see if leaving all these - notes intact but remapped to more or less suitable T5 counterparts would let teh style sound more complete and better sounding. Surprisingly enough it didn't?

I "revo cleaned" a Genos preset style called Jive1 and remapped the remaing notes if neccessary and saved it to Style#1
I then took the original preset Jive1 but this time did not revo clean it but remapped ALL note events to suitable T5 counterparts and saved it to style#2

Example:
The Genos jazzstickkit #18   F#-1   Hi-Hat Edge 50 JS gives a nasty scratchy sound when you leave it at that note value
I remapped in mixmaster for all notes with the same values to
The Tyros Rockkit #44   G#1   Hi-Hat Pedal Rock
or 44   G#1   Hi-Hat Pedal Real Brushes in the Realbrushkit

Did the remap for ALL "-" notes and the remaing other notes where it was needed
Took both saved styles to the T5 and gave both a go. I really couldn't notice a lot of difference and if I had to choose the best sounding one I think I would go for style#1 (the revo cleaned). I'm no drummer and perhaps not a good judge when it comes to how something should sound but can it be that these extra hi-hats (the ones, the "-" ones so to speak are not really carrying the style in the hi-hat section because the normal hi-hats do that and therefor not missed? Can it also be that these "-" Hi-Hats are a bit overkill because these special hi-hats are remapped to alternatives since exactly the same hi-hats are not present in the T5 drumkit?

I'm curious and eagerly awaiting your findings on this conversion stuff. never too old to learn is my motto I do (for now at least) stick to the revo clean method since it saves time compared to the 2nd method. And if the result does not differ that much and doesn't leave you with a lesser quality conversion (or at least noticeable less) ....

kind regards,

Peter 

[pjd]

I have read "hack" as a compliment, sure!
Maybe it is because I am an "old" boy - 68 - I always thought at the word "hack" the same way as you do!

Hi Jørgen --

It always bugged me that the word "hack" got repurposed. 

I'm right behind you at 66.   

Take care -- pj

[pjd]

I "revo cleaned" a Genos preset style called Jive1 and remapped the remaing notes if neccessary and saved it to Style#1

Hi Peter --

Thanks for all of your work!

I'm looking at the "Mr. Soul" style. (Soul and R&B always get me motivated.  ) Mr. Soul was one of the two style examples that I recorded last week when I tested a Genos. My web blob http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ has a link to the MP3.

In the Mr. Soul style, the entire high hat part uses the "-1" notes in the Revo RockDrumKit. If we zap the HH sounds, then it's a serious loss.  No high hats. 

Here is my preliminary plan:

PopPercKit: Note remap
    PopPecKit                  --> PopLatinKit
    --------------------------     --------------------
    G2   Tambourine 2 Shake PP --> G#3  Tambourine 
    G#2  Tambourine 2 Hit PP   --> A3   Tambourine Open 
    D#3  Claps Hi PP           --> F#-1 Hand Clap

RockDrumKit: Note remap
    RockDrumKit                --> RealDrumKit
    --------------------------     --------------------
    A2   Crash Cymbal RD 2         A2   Crash Cymbal Real 2
    G2   Splash Cymbal RD          G2   Splash Cymbal Real
    D#2  Ride Cymbal Tip RD        D#2  Ride Cymbal Real 1
    C#2  Crash Cymbal RD 1         C#2  Crash Cymbal Real 1
    B1   Tom RD 4                  B1   Tom Real 4
    G1   Tom RD 2                  G1   Tom Real 2
    D#1  Clap Power                D#1  Clap Power
    D1   Snare 1 RD                D1   Snare Real 1
    C#1  Snare 1 Side-Stick RD     C#1  Stick Real
    B0   Kick 2 RD                 B0   Kick Real 1
    A-1  Hi-Hat Pedal Closed RD
    F#-1 Hi-Hat Edge 50 RD
    E-1  Hi-Hat Edge 10 RD
    D#-1 Hi-Hat Tip 10 RD
    D-1  Hi-Hat Edge 00 RD
    C#-1 Hi-Hat Tip 00 RD

I need to listen to the MP3 to figure out what RealDrum HH sounds are the closest fit. I haven't been able to guess the meaning of the numbers in note names like "Hi-Hat Edge 25 RD". What the heck is the "25"?

There are some other naming curiosities like that in the other drum kits. I agree with Jørgen that the long-term solution is a drum remapper tool. First, though, we need to work out the actual note-to-note remappings. Yeeeeeeeeeeee! 

Yamaha have really outdone themselves with Mega Voice and DSP to spiff up the styles, too. I have some possible remappings for the Mega Voices:

Possible S950 Mega Voice substitutions:
    50sVintagePick --> Mega CleanGuitar, SolidGuitar1, SolidGuitar2, SingleCoil
    KinoLargeComp  --> Mega SmallStrings, LargeStrings
    PopHorns1      --> Mega Brass
    VintageRound   --> Mega VintageRound [no substitution required]

I don't have clue-one about how to deal with the DSP insert effects. Lots of DSP-related Sy*** everywhere in this style including on-the-fly parameter changes in the MAIN sections.

I won't have time to listen to the MP3 and play matchy-matchy until later today.

Fun, fun, fun -- pj

[XeeniX]

Hi PJ,

Will have a look that mrsoul since i just finished 5 more converted Genos styles for my T5. For me the ultimate goal is not to try and let the Tyros 5 sound like a Genos because I know that is impossible You can try of course and get as close as humanly possible on a T5 but it will take a lot of extra effort too and the result may/will be less than desirable. My goal is to use a perfect style made for Genos and try to get it to sound like something as close as possible to the quality of the original T5 presets. A style converted in thi sway would be a usable and nice sounding style. It will always be a matter of personal taste I realize that. But all that matters is that one enjoys being busy with their hobby (in this case the keyboard ) either playing or fooling around changing things. Not sure if you have access to the member area/charter files. If so you could download 1 of the 4 packs I have shared and test them. if not and if interested let me know where to send them. I think these 20 styles turned out great. I have to admit though that some are better than others. It;s like you already said. You would need drum samples of every drum sound in the Genos in order to find all the proper T5 counterparts and even then you have the chance you will not be able to find all reasonable alternatives.

Thanks for looking into this and sharing your knowledge btw. I started to set up a remap list in excel where I put the Genos kit with names and note #'s one the left and the T5 alternative kit with it's note #'s to the right In the middle a column for the replacing note #'s. For programming a remap toll this could work but haha finding all the alternatives and documenting them is a lot of work since you would need more alternative kits for 1 Genos kit. You can not pick certain Genos kits and  have only one alternative T5 kit since soem styles rely heavier on certain voices also found in let's say the realbrush kit whiel other styles really need the normal jazzkit.

Pff by the time this project is done we might already have a Genos 3 out there

Peter 

[Jørgen]

...
Pff by the time this project is done we might already have a Genos 3 out there
...

Hi Peter and pj

Interesting discussion. Very...

I think I have two weeks free in my time schedule in 2023 for programming this project. Do you think the data for remapping will be ready for this? Or maybe we should wait to 2024...       

Jørgen

[XeeniX]

Ha ha, poor Jørgen

I think I better stick to manually remapping for now
A program no matter how sophisticated it was written will still be as good as it's database. And you know by now my mine aren't that err flawless :p So I'm gonna continu using my secret weapon while converting Genos styles: I thrown a handful of note # in my magic kettle, mix them with my usual typos and stir the combination until they are done. So far no one died from my concoctions and the end result most of the time surprisingly okay on my Tyros

Peter 

[XeeniX]

PJ,

I Finished converting the Mr.Soul style. Did all notes manually not usin revo cleaner this time. Used the RealDrum Kit as alternative and brought the D1 note down in velocity about 10% over the entire style since I thought it was too loud otherwise. I couldn't find a guitar mega voice that sounded nice enough for my taste. So I used an amp and fiddled around a bit with effects As always it's personal taste. What sounds nice for one can sound awful for others. See attachment...

Peter 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[pjd]

Hi Jørgen and Peter --

I was thinking about Jørgen's comment about just setting the velocity to zero in order to avoid changing the note timing. Great idea!

That made me think of a note remapping tool -- a generalization of what we are trying to do. The note remapper operates on one MIDI channel (part) at a time. The user interface consists of a source and destination column. The source is mapped to the destination.

The channel is selected by a drop down list. The first mapping line changes the existing voice MSB/LSB/Program Change number to new values. (Each new value is chosen from a drop down list 0 to 127, or 1 to 128, if you prefer).

The remaining lines in the mapping "table," define changes to individual notes. Source notes with the indicated MIDI note number are changed (in place) to the specified destination MIDI note number. This could be generalized to change the velocity and MIDI channel, too, without disturbing the timing.

The user must enter the source to destination mappings. This eliminates the problem of making a mapping database. Maybe the user's mapping can be stored for reuse?

Just ideas -- pj


[attachment deleted by admin]

[pjd]

Hi Peter --

You're way too fast me!  I just finished my errands, etc. and was getting ready to edit the style. It's a good thing that I looked here first. 

I'll try your style right away. It's just about afternoon practice time...

Thank you for converting the style.

-- pj

[XeeniX]

You're welcome

Btw I'm curious about what you think of the result and if the modified style still has the "soul" in it

Peter 

[pjd]

Btw I'm curious about what you think of the result and if the modified style still has the "soul" in it

Hi Peter --

Thank you for your conversion! When I tried it on S950, a few of the voices weren't selected. It might be an issue of T5 vs. S950.

Anyway, selected S950 voices (PopLatinKit, Mega Voice Jazz Guitar, ConcertGrand, Mega Voice Brass, etc.) and got a good result!  I agree that the brighter funk guitar (probably a Tele) is hard to replace and have a balanced mix. I went with the Mega Jazz Guitar and it sits more subtly.

I also added OTS although the RIGHT3 voices may still be whack; S950 can't set RIGHT3 (for obvious reasons).

Overall, it's sounding great! 

The S950 version with OTS is attached.  Should we post the file in the Genos Voices board on the Forum? It'll probably get lost in this thread...

Take care -- pj

P.S. The "a" in the file name let's us create and post new versions.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[XeeniX]

Thanks PJ for your feedback,

I will try the jazz guitar mega suggestion to see if that changes the style in a positive way.
I post my conversions in packs of 5 styles in the charter member area. This one will be in pack 06. If you want to post it in the public forum so others can also use it the best place perhaps would be the general styles section? I don't think Genos owners are eagerly awaiting our converted styles

cheers,
Peter

[tyrosman]

hi Peter i down loaded the Mister soul style you did and it is spot on in Tyros 5

[XeeniX]

Thanks for your fedback and glad that you like it