Tyros 5 Line Out distortion - 9,5KHz frequency tone

[robbiedoes]

Hello!

Today I've received my Tyros 5 after waiting 2,5 months between order and delivery. Of course I was really exited. But as soon as I powered on the Tyros 5 and played something, I noticed something really bad. I heard a very high frequency tone of 9,5KHz through the speakers and through the music. I admit...my ears are really sensitive so I can imagine that not everyone will notice this "distortion". In totally silence, some low (digital) buzzing sounds can be heard also.

I've tried different things:
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Line Out directly to my Yamaha HS80 set => no difference
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Aux Out directly to my Yamaha HS80 set => no difference
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Line Out on my Yamaha AW2400 harddiskrecorder/mixing console => no difference
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Aux Out on my Yamaha AW2400 harddiskrecorder/mixing console => no difference

In all the situations the high frequency tone of 9,5KHz is there. Only when I connect a headphone to the Tyros 5, everything is clear (but when connecting the headphone to the Yamaha AW2400 harddiskrecorder, I can also hear the 9,5KHz tone on the headphone).

I've made a recording of this distortion. Yes, it is highly amplified to make it clear for everyone. You can listen to the recording here:
http://www.robbiedoes.nl/diversen/TyrosForum/LineOutT5.mp3

From 00:00 till 00:03 => this is the basic noise (Tyros 5 powered off)
At 00:04 => turning on the Tyros 5
From 00:06 till 00:18 => the display is starting up with the logo and the Tyros 5 is starting up
At 00:19 => the Tyros 5 started up completely

When listening to this recording in Windows Media Player, the 9,5KHz tone is visible in the spectrum:



I really hope that this is not an issue with all the Tyros 5 models. On a Dutch forum, some people confirmed that they also have the same experience. For me, it really gives me headache. Not only because I do not expect this on an instrument that costs €4000,-, but also this frequency gives me headache literally.

I'm really curious to know if there are more people out there that also deals with this issue. And I'm also curious if there are people that are not dealing with this issue, knowing that they are also sensitive for little details like this.

Tomorrow we will test a second Tyros 5 in the same environment to see if this Tyros 5 also has the same issue.


PS: This was really never an issue on the Tyros 3 and Tyros 4 I've had.

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[waclawib]

Yep, no doubt there is a noise present. To make you feel better. My T5-76 also had an audio flaw - mine was a sharp "glitch" while playing certain styles.
Yamaha sent me a replacement and the new board is working great. Unfortunately, I think you are probably looking at an RMA.

One thing you may want to check - does the noise exist while listening via headphones?

Good luck,

Bart

[robbiedoes]

One thing you may want to check - does the noise exist while listening via headphones?

Thanks for your replay Bart. I can confirm that using a headphone on the front connection of the Tyros 5 is giving me a clear sound without any issue. If it can be solved by Yamaha, I would be really happy to go into a RMA procedure (or Tyros 5 exchange).

Greetings, Robert.

[Bill Grosse]

Robert,

For sure that is a very noisy output.

RMA for sure.

Bill G

[Marcus]

Hi Robert

Yes, that hum is very annoying and not normal. Sounds like a ground issue or your output audio cables are picking up interferance.

Are you using the exact same Tyros 4 output cables going from your Tyros 5 to either your speakers or mixing console or are you using output cables that came with your Tyros 5 speakers? I would try any different speaker cable laying around just to see if the problem persists.

If the second Tyros 5 reproduces the exact problem, then the only other suggestion is trying balanced 1/4" phone cables with TRS ends. These are suppose to eliminate any interference through your output cables. Without buying them, maybe a music store could lend you a set to see if it fixes the issue, then buy them.

Marcus

[clavier]

Hello the same unpleasant problem with my T5 / 61 J' wait for a solution of yamaha forum has to follow closely!!   

[robbiedoes]

Not tested a second Tyros at my house, but another Tyros (also delivered yesterday) is having the same problem. It seems that my Tyros 5 is not the only one with this high frequency beep . To be continued.....

@Marcus: I only use balanced cables with Neutrik connectors and Neutrik cable. But it is unknown if the outputs of the Tyros 5 are balanced or unbalanced. If the outputs are unbalanced, it's no use using balanced cables. But....it's exactly the same enviroment where I've used my Tyros 3 and 4. So if there should be a real issue with the cables, it should be a problem with the older models also.

[robbiedoes]

Note:
I suspect the display circuit for causing this high frequency noise/tone. It appears as soon as the display starts up. I did a firmware update and in this procedure there is a display interruption. At that point, also the high frequency noise is interrupted.

[Marcus]

Not tested a second Tyros at my house, but another Tyros (also delivered yesterday) is having the same problem. It seems that my Tyros 5 is not the only one with this high frequency beep . To be continued.....

@Marcus: I only use balanced cables with Neutrik connectors and Neutrik cable. But it is unknown if the outputs of the Tyros 5 are balanced or unbalanced. If the outputs are unbalanced, it's no use using balanced cables. But....it's exactly the same enviroment where I've used my Tyros 3 and 4. So if there should be a real issue with the cables, it should be a problem with the older models also.

You have a very strange issue there. You ruled out the cables, and your older models with the same cables and environment. As far as I know, only the mic combo input is balanced. So trying balanced output cable probably wouldn't  change anything. Yamaha will have to resolve this and give you a replacement that works properly.

This is just off my head, but you didn't add another new equipment at the same time, like surge protector or something like that? The last thing I can think if the power to your home is lower in voltage than normal causing interference in sensitive audio equipment, but like you said your older models worked fine.

All of Europe is 50 Hz and North America is 60 Hz, would one Tyros manufactured for one area work correctly in another if they got mixed up ( just thinking out loud)? I think equipment like the Tyros automatically adjust itself to 120v or 220v internally through a transformer, but would a different hertz cycle 60 verses 50 affect anything?

Good luck resolving this and keep us posted, because it appears others have similar issues.

Marcus

[jbd59]

hello ;i've check this issue on my T5 61 , their's just a background noise  but no  kind of wisttle  at high frequency , have'nt you  set the EQ to high in frequency ?

[SP3BGJ]

Measured the noise in my Tyros 5 and are at the level of-80dB. Seen only moments combination switches (marked in red - screen 1) REGISTRATION MEMORY.
In this noise you are at the level of -40 dB and are too large (screen 2)
This is a defect.
Yours!
Gregory

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[robbiedoes]

@jbd59: The Tyros 5 is completely factory default out of the box. No changes made.

@SP3BGJ: Keep in mind that the recording is amplified "extremely" to demonstrate the 9,5KHz whistle tone I hear. I'm not complaining about the noise, but I'm complaining about the 9,5KHz whistle tone. Nice to see that your picture (screen 2) of my recording also shows my problem at around 10KHz.

[Kari V]

A similar noise problem has been reported on the German Yamaha forum, see  the link below (you can use Google translator, if you don't understand German)

http://forum.yamaha-europe.com/showthread.php?39431-Fragen-Antworten-zum-Tyros5-und-Yamaha-Expansion-Manager&p=326965&viewfull=1#post326965

The term used there was "pfeifen" which is whistling in English. I don't know whether it is the same noise that is mentioned here ?

A couple of persons reported that they could remove the noise by using a Hum Eliminator (Ground Loop Isolator) or a DI-Box
and that the same noise has been present in earlier Tyros models, too, although not as prominent as in T5.

Others reported that they have not noticed the noise on earlier models or on T5.

Regards
Kari

[jbd59]

A similar noise problem has been reported on the German Yamaha forum, see  the link below (you can use Google translator, if you don't understand German)

http://forum.yamaha-europe.com/showthread.php?39431-Fragen-Antworten-zum-Tyros5-und-Yamaha-Expansion-Manager&p=326965&viewfull=1#post326965

The term used there was "pfeifen" which is whistling in English. I don't know whether it is the same noise that is mentioned here ?

A couple of persons reported that they could remove the noise by using a Hum Eliminator (Ground Loop Isolator) or a DI-Box
and that the same noise has been present in earlier Tyros models, too, although not as prominent as in T5.

Others reported that they have not noticed the noise on earlier models or on T5.

Regards
Kari

anyhow that's a ennoying  issue and not normal for a brand new  flagship KB !!maybe that coulf be a probleme of soldering cause the  tin solder is forbidden now ! that should make fals contact on the motherboard !

[Yamahaman]

Lead in solder tin in Europe is forbidden since juli 2006.

[Keyboardister]

Oh God, I am going to wait at least 6 more months before buying this model, there are just too many problems with this
batch...

[Bill Grosse]

Oh yes - those solder joints.

When I had my PSR-2100 back a century ago it seems, it was plagued with "cold solder" joints on the Motherboard.

Had to replace it because many of those bad joints were associated with the CPU.

I would hope whatever has been substituted for the old solder is an improvement.

Bill G

[robbiedoes]

A little update on this subject:

I've tested a connection with my AW2400 harddiskrecorder/mixer on the headphone output of the Tyros 5. Unfortunately this gives me exactly the same problem, so this cannot be used as a temporary workaround.

[jbd59]

hello Robbie maybe you could have an interference between  your purposes  an high frequency  oscillation  !!  is it specific to;the 76 ? i have a 61 and no pobleme at  all  !

[Marcus]

Oh God, I am going to wait at least 6 more months before buying this model, there are just too many problems with this
batch...

I don't know what is going on with these odd Tyros 5 issues in certain keyboards, yet others are fine. My Tyros 5-61 was from the first limited batch into Canada and it works perfectly. Quality seems as good as the Tyros 4, which is usually Yamaha's high quality standard. I agree the power-on button and the USB port feel little different from the Tyros 4.

I wonder if quality control has lapsed on the componates not the actual Yamaha assembly factory. I remember a TV documentary from either Japan or could of been China, but top electriconic companies had componates farmed out to smaller parts suppliers who had workers solder and assembly electronic parts even from housewives or anyone who wanted to work out of their homes. They were hard workers doing the task and quota required, but how is the quality monitored from the parent company or factory.

Have no idea if Yamaha follows similar manufacturer's practices, but more of these flaws are becoming apparent rather than just general firmware bugs most new keyboards go through. Regardless of the issue, you paid for a perfectly functioning TOTL keyboard and don't settle for less. A pain waiting for the replacement, but worth it in the end for a good keyboard dependable into the future.

Marcus

[robbiedoes]

Update (solution):

Yesterday I've created a workaround. The 9,5KHz whistle tone was caused by using a power cable with an earthed plug. All my equipment (AW2400, HS-80, Tyros 5) is connected to one earthed powerstrip. That powerstrip is connected to the earthed wall poweroutlet.

The first thing I've tried on the first day was removing the earthed connection on the wall power outlet. It is known that the earthed connection can be a problem. But in my case, I still got the annoying 9,5KHz whistle tone.

So as told, yesterday I removed the earthed connection on the Tyros 5 power cable only. At this moment, the noise and 9,5KHz whistle tone disappeared. The Tyros 5 seems to have problems when connected equipment (like my AW2400 harddisk recorder and the HS80/HS10W speakers) are sharing the same earthed connection with the earthed powerstrip. Even if the powerstrip itself is not connected to an earthed wall poweroutlet.

This all seems very strange to me. I never had any problems with the Tyros 3 and 4. And now with the Tyros 5, I need to try all kind of tricks to remove unwanted noises?   I still think there must be something wrong with the internal wiring, shielding, etc. Also Tyros 5 owners are informing me that they do not have any problem like this and do not have to do all kind of tricks. At this point, I try to find some other Tyros 5 owners in my neighbourhood to see if their Tyros 5 is having the same problem when using an earthed power connection. I want to discover if there are different production batches with different behaviour at this point.

[clavier]

Hello I tried your solution Bravo (Deleting the land feeding T5) the sound is perfect .. thank you for your advice.     

[Bill Grosse]

robbiedoes,

The "third rail" so to speak effectively connects all of your equipment together - similar to running a ground wire between every one of your devices.

If one has some internal noise, then so will all. BUT - the noise usually only shows up in the one with the original audio output. 

Nothing wrong with the Tyros, but the noise is coming from one of the other devices.

I suggest removing one at a time from the circuit until you identify the culprit.

Bill G

[robbiedoes]

Hi Bill,

I disagree.

First: The setup is the same as with the Tyros 3 and 4, so if one of my other equipment is causing the problem...why didn't I have this problem with the Tyros 3 and 4?
Second: On a Dutch forum (and also as confirmed by user clavier), I'm not the only Tyros 5 owner dealing with this problem.

[Bill Grosse]

Well just how hard would it be to verify one way or the other?

Some are willing to pull their head out of the sand. 

Many think the T5 is different than the T1,2,3,4. Perhaps not.

[jbd59]

hello everybody  , you know electronic is strange  this mornin  i tried to power on my PC  a big machine  i made for music only with my TYROS , impossible to start !  the green led was lit on the MOTHER BOARD , the fans on etc , no start up of the BIOS  i made a clear sum , , nothing  , i changed the POWER feeding , nothing , permuted the RAM !! nothing , i spend aumost my day on that probleme ! but i idea came !! i pull off the processor to see if there was still grease  for cooling  , ok ; i  re mount the processor , start , and HOP  all is running again !! surely bed join with the socket processor  !! is that not Bizaare as we said in french !!

[Kari V]

Hi Bill,

I disagree.

First: The setup is the same as with the Tyros 3 and 4, so if one of my other equipment is causing the problem...why didn't I have this problem with the Tyros 3 and 4?
Second: On a Dutch forum (and also as confirmed by user clavier), I'm not the only Tyros 5 owner dealing with this problem.

I think that Bill's advice was a good one.

Here's some text copied from Bill Whitlock's paper, which might shed some light on the matter:

Bill Whitlock: UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, & ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS IN AUDIO & VIDEO SYSTEMS


"A cable is a source of potential trouble connecting two other sources of potential trouble." This
joke among electronic system engineers is worth keeping in mind.

Any signal accumulates noise as it flows through the equipment and cables in a system.

No system can be quieter than its noisiest link. Noise and interference must be prevented
along the entire signal path.

Furthermore, unbalanced interfaces are prone to noise problems, because they provide no common mode noise
rejection, like balanced interfaces do. Unbalanced interfaces are inherently extremely susceptible to power-line
noise.


THE FACTS OF LIFE ABOUT AC POWER

In all real equipment, there are parasitic capacitances between the power line and the
equipment ground. They are the unavoidable inter-winding capacitances of its power transformer
that are never shown in schematic diagrams. Especially if the equipment contains anything digital,
internal electro-magnetic interference (a.k.a. EMI) filters will further add to the capacitance. These
capacitances allow leakage current to flow between power line and chassis/ground inside each
piece of equipment.

In UL-approved ungrounded (i.e., 2-prong ac power plug) devices, this current is limited to
0.75 mA. Such equipment incorporates a number of protective mechanisms so that it remains safe
in spite of internal component failures, overload, and rough handling. Because this equipment is
ungrounded, it's chassis (or input/output connections) can assume relatively high voltages with
respect to the ground system. Although a voltmeter may indicate well over 50 volts, the current
available is small and will cause only a slight tingle if it flows through a person. However, any
connection between two such devices or such a device and a grounded one will carry this leakage
current. We must accept this fact as reality.


HOW THE NOISE GETS IN

With ungrounded devices, power-line leakage current flows in the grounded signal conductor.
Since this conductor has resistance, a small noise voltage is generated over its length. Because
the interface is a series circuit, this noise voltage is directly added to the signal arriving at the
receiver. Because the impedance of the grounded conductor is "common" to both signal and noise
current paths, this mechanism is called common impedance coupling.

Common-impedance coupling can become very severe in an unbalanced interface between two
grounded devices. Any ground voltage difference developed in the building wiring, which generally
ranges from a few millivolts to a volt, is effectively impressed across the ends of the grounded
signal conductor, typically the cable shield.


SOLUTIONS

Devices called "ground isolators" solve the fundamental problem with unbalanced interfaces.
Broadly defined, they are differential responding devices with high common-mode rejection.
In order to solve the problem, an isolator must be installed in the signal path
at the point where the noise coupling actually occurs.


As I said in the post earlier, people have been able to get rid of this noise by
using a Hum Eliminator (Ground Loop Isolator) or a DI-Box, which are examples of "ground isolators"
mentioned above.

In summary the thing that is wrong with the Tyros models/series is that they all use unbalanced outputs
(and inputs).

Regards
Kari

[robbiedoes]

I've tried different things:
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Line Out directly to my Yamaha HS80 set => no difference
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Aux Out directly to my Yamaha HS80 set => no difference
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Line Out on my Yamaha AW2400 harddiskrecorder/mixing console => no difference
- Connecting the Tyros 5 Aux Out on my Yamaha AW2400 harddiskrecorder/mixing console => no difference

In all the situations the high frequency tone of 9,5KHz is there. Only when I connect a headphone to the Tyros 5, everything is clear (but when connecting the headphone to the Yamaha AW2400 harddiskrecorder, I can also hear the 9,5KHz tone on the headphone).

As I quoted and as you can read in my first topic entry, I tested with only my AW2400 connected and only with the HS80 connected. Absolutely no other equipment connected (no Wifi, no USB, no pedals, no microphone).

Bill mentioned:
"Nothing wrong with the Tyros, but the noise is coming from one of the other devices. I suggest removing one at a time from the circuit until you identify the culprit."

There is nothing more to exclude?!? If I only have my AW2400 connected, there's just only one piece of equipment. Yes...if I remove the AW2400, only the Tyros 5 is left. Sure that would give me a silent result  .

I have only one conclusion: There IS something wrong with the Tyros 5. Of course it is possible that there are Tyros 5 models that do not have this problem. In that case there can be different production batches with different specifications (and maybe delivered to other countries). On the Dutch forum, it is clear that a lot of other Dutch Tyros 5 owners are dealing with the same problem. All confirm that they didn't have any problem with the Tyros 4 and/or Tyros 3 using the same equipment.

As far as I know this issue is under investigation by Yamaha. Only thing we can do at this moment is waiting on the answer of Yamaha.

PS: Thank God I only have Yamaha equipment connected, so Yamaha cannot tell me that my equipment is not right

[Kari V]

As I quoted and as you can read in my first topic entry, I tested with only my AW2400 connected and only with the HS80 connected. Absolutely no other equipment connected (no Wifi, no USB, no pedals, no microphone).

Bill mentioned:
"Nothing wrong with the Tyros, but the noise is coming from one of the other devices. I suggest removing one at a time from the circuit until you identify the culprit."

There is nothing more to exclude?!? If I only have my AW2400 connected, there's just only one piece of equipment. Yes...if I remove the AW2400, only the Tyros 5 is left. Sure that would give me a silent result  .

OK, but as Bill Whitlock explained, when you are connecting two devices with an unbalanced interface you SHOULD be prepared to getting noise problems and not expecting that
there won't be any. And there's also a solution to this as he mentioned.

I have only one conclusion: There IS something wrong with the Tyros 5.

Yes, you are right. There definitely is something wrong and the thing that is wrong is to have an unbalanced interface instead of a balanced one.
It is a real shame that Yamaha has put an unbalanced interface on a device which is costing 4000 euros. It would have cost them a couple of euros or so
to implement balanced interface instead.

As far as I know this issue is under investigation by Yamaha. Only thing we can do at this moment is waiting on the answer of Yamaha.

There was another report of this on the German Yamaha forum, see the link below:

http://forum.yamaha-europe.com/showthread.php?40237-Hochfrequenzton-beim-Tyros-5-!

The following was stated there:
"Mein Händler rief schon bei Yamaha an, man kannte wohl diesen "Fehler" er trat laut Aussage Yamaha schon mehrfach auf, anscheinend weiß man sich aber seitens Yamaha bei den T5 Modellen noch nicht zu helfen"

Frankly, I don't think that it is very likely that there will be any other solution to this than using a "ground isolator".

PS: Thank God I only have Yamaha equipment connected, so Yamaha cannot tell me that my equipment is not right

You are right, but I don't expect Yamaha to admit that there's something wrong with the Tyros 5, other than its usage of unbalanced interface.
As I said, the norm with them is that you should be expecting to getting noise problems unless you use a ground isolator.

Regards
Kari

[Bill Grosse]

robbiedoes

Okay - I need to improve my reading skills.   

The last item that comes to mind is that your "mains" may be full of noise or not even properly installed in your home.

Have you tried your keyboard at another location other than your home studio to see if the noise persists? 

For safety reasons, it is not a good idea to eliminate that "third" rail - you might want to consider a line isolator or
even a battery backup, same as for computers to filter the power.

You probably have tried all of these things already and are just things that I have run into over the years that have worked.

Since you are not the only person reporting this trouble, Yamaha needs to get more than just a little interested in this quickly.

Bill G