The Real Issue with Arranger Keyboards video from Woody

[robinez]

Oh, yeah, another thing Woody left out -- the ability to re-mix existing style patterns into a new style. This is the fast way to learn about style creation and get a working result.

Indeed!

Song styles are no issue at all, it's so easy nowadays to change the song specific elements to generic elements in the the style assembly mode on the Genos or the Style copy mode on the korg pa5x. A month ago, I've showed how to do this for the korg pa5x in one of my tutorials which you can find here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNQM1B84TIA

but the process on the yamaha genos is more or less the same, just open the style assembly mode and replace the song specific patterns to generic patterns from generic styles. That way you can create thousends of unique sounding styles yourself without any knowledge how to build styles from scratch.

[Amwilburn]

Sorry, but for anyone agreeing with Woody, you've simply fallen for the farmed rage clickbait (which has been profitable for social media, esp youtube and tiktok content creators, for the last decade or so.

Yes, all the ones he showed were styles for a specific style. But guess what? Most of the styles for G1, T5, sx900, sx700/s970/s975 etc etc are based on actual songs. The reason the older arrangers feel like more generic songs is because the pop songs they were based off when they released back in 2005/2001, etc, have been all but forgotten now.

As a retail partner for Yamaha, Roland, Casio & Korg, I can tell you that for decades we've been trained on the product using existing songs. On the Roland FPE50 (2023), my go to demos are Billy Eilish's "Bad Buy" and Kate Bush's "Running up that Hill". But this is not a new phenomenon at *all*

When the PSRs950 came out in 2012 and Yamaha first included audio styles? Every single one was based on an existing song, bud. Tango Flamenco for Hotel California, 80sRock Anthem for We Will Rock you (Main Var A&B) and Kashmir (Var C&D), TapDanceSwing is for Singing in the Rain, BritPopDiva is for Adele's "Set Fire to the Rain", 60sSuperGroup is the Beatles "I Wanna Hold Your Hand", CanadianRock is for Bryan Adams "Run To You" and even the non audio styles; 80sPowerRock is for Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer.

Going even further back to Tyros 2(2006) 80sPopRock = U2 Where the Streets have no name, BritRockPop = ColdPlay's Clocks, 90sGuitarPop was for Sixpence None the Richer's "Kiss Me". Even Tyros 1 (2002) they used real songs: Unplugged1 was for Extreme's "More than Words", and Love Song was for Bryan Adam's "Everything I Do".

Before that? PSR9000/CVP209: US Pop was Britney Spears' "Baby One More Time", MoviePanther
was for the Pink Panther, AniFantasy = It's a Small World.

It's *always* been about demoing them as cover machines (any brand, btw, not just Yamaha) and anybody who wants different styles, let them make them (as pjd mentioned, now there's MidiToStyle, a *huge* tool to get started, if not actually making the entire style for you.

In fact, essentially 100% of every arranger ever launched is based on real songs (even the ancient Roland BK7; the first style is for Sinatra's My Way) and the reason some styles seem more generic is because there are often multiple songs that use a very, very similar arrangement. The proof is in the pudding: the fact that the Genos 2 playlist of 1599 song resgistrations is based off 800 on board styles, means that on average, 1 style is used for 2 different songs.

Not every singe one, mind you: some thing are too specific, like the bassline from Billie Jean. But wait, that's not on Yamaha arrangers? Nope, but it is on several other brands, including Casio. But at least on Yamaha pro arrangers, as pjd also pointed out, you *can* mix and match style parts; steal a repeating 8th note on the root bass instead and it's no longer that song specific.

Not sure where we draw our censorship lines, I'll just call Woody's a rubbish take.
Nothing more than farmed rage clickbait folks. 

in observing keyboard customers for almost 5 decades? there are 2 things everyone tries out first: looking for a sound/voice/patch for a specific song (synthbrass for Van Halen's "Jump", for example, or the synth lead for Axel F) and trying to figure out which song a built in style is designed for. Because even the now seemingly generic ones? Most were at one point designed for a specific song!

2 of the generic Rock styles that we take for granted now as being usable anywhere? 1 was for The Kinks "YOu Really Got Me" (HardRock) and another for the Cars "Just What I Needed" (ContempRock).

Mark

[Divemaster]

Interestingly, there was an event going on near us this last weekend, and although it was for a local Gymnastics Club, which attracts mostly children from about 6 years old up to their respective parents age, the music they were belting out for several hours was not modern music, but time aged favourites from many years ago.
It was a really good event by all accounts.

Keith.

[orangeman]

The proof is in the pudding: the fact that the Genos 2 playlist of 1599 song registrations is based off 800 on board styles, means that on average, 1 style is used for 2 different songs.

Hi Mark, does this playlist exist anywhere for public viewing?

Thanks

Tom

[overover]

... does this playlist exist anywhere for public viewing?

Thanks

Tom

Hi Tom,

You can find the download link for the Genos2 Playlist in the following post:
>>>https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,67771.msg511422.html#msg511422

Please read the instructions in that post and in the ReadMe file included in the downloaded zip file.


Hope this helps!

All the best,
Chris

[orangeman]

Hi Tom,

You can find the download link for the Genos2 Playlist in the following post:
>>>https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,67771.msg511422.html#msg511422

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much!

Tom

[Toril S]

I see no problems with some styles being made for specific songs. Most styles are generic, and all can be if you just leave out the intros/endings, and instead make your own. So I son't agree witn Woody here, but I like his videos. He seems like a nice guy.

[ChrisH]

Hi Chris

Pardon my ignorance too but the Genos playlist seems to me like a MusicFinder list on the old arrangers but instead it loads into registrations ... I used to get MBD files from the site here and download them to my SX900 and they were converted into playlists by the keyboard. Is this much the same thing so you could select a gendre from playlists on a USB (after the SX900 had converted them ) and simply select a song and play it. It would be neat to know when I get enough funds together for a Genos2 so downloading it and keeping it on hand might be a good idea.  Taking a look at a small portion of the list they also seem to have the usual song specific items which I don't mind!

Chris

[richkeys]

....So I don't agree witn Woody here, but I like his videos. He seems like a nice guy.

Woody has good enthusiasm for the instruments and tech. I just feel he didn't make a good video this time. Some of his viewers who may be undecided about which type of keyboard to buy rely on him for advice. Most of the comments here from experienced people have proven his summary is wrong. So it's a shame that people interested in buying an arranger keyboard for the first time might be discouraged after hearing Woody's opinion.

Rich

[overover]

Hi Chris

Pardon my ignorance too but the Genos playlist seems to me like a MusicFinder list on the old arrangers but instead it loads into registrations ... I used to get MBD files from the site here and download them to my SX900 and they were converted into playlists by the keyboard. Is this much the same thing so you could select a gendre from playlists on a USB (after the SX900 had converted them ) and simply select a song and play it. It would be neat to know when I get enough funds together for a Genos2 so downloading it and keeping it on hand might be a good idea.  Taking a look at a small portion of the list they also seem to have the usual song specific items which I don't mind!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Each Music Finder Record of a Music Finder file from Yamaha simply calls up a specific preset style, selects a specific Main variation (and possibly a specific Intro) and sets the Tempo accordingly. The OTS of the relevant style are used as Keyboard voices.

If you import a Music Finder file (.mfd) into the PSR-SX or Genos model as a Playlist, a Registration Bank is created for each Music Finder Record (song title), but this actually only contains one Registration. The OTS are also used as Keyboard voices.

The Genos2 Playlist from Yamaha is very different: Each Playlist Record calls up a Registration Bank, each of which contains several Registrations programmed specifically for this song title. For example, the Registration Bank "Blue Moon" of the Genos2 Playlist contains the following 6 Registrations (which also use different, specially programmed Keyboard voices):

Reg #1   4-Bar Intro
Reg #2   Verse 1
Reg #3   Verse 2
Reg #4   Chorus
Reg #5   Verse 3
Reg #6   5-Bar Ending
(Reg #7 - 10   Empty)


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[ChrisH]

Thanks Chris

Wow that is completely different to the SX and the Tyros .. quite clever actually ... Great of you to clarify the way the Genos 2 works even though I doubt whether I could afford one ..over here the Genos 2 76 is heading fast for a 5 figure price so out of my budget.

Chris

[DerekA]

The playlist function is on the SX series, the Genos 1 and the Genos 2.

[ChrisH]

I did have an SX900 and yes it had the playlist function as opposed to the Music Finder. Personally I don't use the Music Finder so the Genos or SX playlist wouldn't have a lot of appeal to me

I cannot really understand why one would use the playlist loading 7 registrations as opposed to using a song style which is tailored to a specific tune and has 3 intros and often the intro 2 can be used as an M8 sequence ..it still has 4 variations and 3 endings.  If all your song "parts" are in registrations you STILL need to add drum breaks that we usually use via the autofill or break button so what is the huge advantage of having your song parts in registration buttons when the style already has them (with OTS) ready to use over the intro/variation/ending buttons.  I'm puzzled??? Who can explain what the advantage is?

[bpsafran]

Registrations allow you to choose different styles and style
parts (same goes for multipads and voices) and revoice
or mute style tracks as you wish ,for each registration button. 
All this without reprogramming styles.  The power
of playing one song with parts of several different, but related,
styles should not be underestimated as is the importance of
simply muting or revoucing style tracks.

[BogdanH]

Hi ChrisH,

..so the Genos or SX playlist wouldn't have a lot of appeal to me.

I don't use playlists/music finder at all. But then, I don't do live gigs and so maybe there's advantage for those who do.. no idea.

I cannot really understand why one would use the playlist loading 7 registrations as opposed to using a song style...
...Who can explain what the advantage is?

I only use registrations when absolutely necessary.. and that's in the case when I need more than four variations for the song:

Example1
I play Main A variation and I wish to repeat it with some additional channel turned on (i.e. Pad). Turning channels on/off (in Mixer) isn't really practical while we're busy with playing the song. So the only solution is to make Main B variation, which is exact copy of Main A, but this time with Pad channel turned on. That works fine, however it's a big waste of variations (we only can have four of them in a style).
By using registrations we can simply use Main A variation twice, where in the second registration the Pad channel is turned on.

Example2
I always use pedal for switching to next style variation (or to next registration sequence), because many times we can't lift the hand at the moment when we need to switch to desired style variation.
So I play variations Main A, Main B, Main C and then I wish to repeat Main B and Main C (this time maybe with additional channels) and finally Main D. This can be easily achieved with registrations, because we can define sequence of variations (in what order we wish to play them).

I hope that was your question 

Greetings, Bogdan

[andyg]

Registrations are the single most powerful feature on the keyboard!

I teach people to use them from Day One - I won't teach anyone if their keyboard doesn't have them - and as they progress, I show them more and more of what registrations can do.

We'll all have our own ways of working, some conventional and some rather unusual. I'm not saying wrong, just unusual, as it's not the way that we as designers originally envisaged things! All credit to the keyboards that they can be used in so many different ways.

Personally, I couldn't imagine not using registrations for every piece of music I play - I think 60 was the most I used in one medley!

[KurtAgain]

If all your song "parts" are in registrations you STILL need to add drum breaks that we usually use via the autofill or break button so what is the huge advantage [...]

No, you don't. A registration can also start with a fill-in or a break if you want to, just like a variation.

In addition, a registration can store more settings than a variation.

Kurt

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark, does this playlist exist anywhere for public viewing?

Thanks

Tom

Sorry, I was off; but it looks like Chris has you sorted. If you are unable to view these files (ie don't own a Genos 2), forum member DrakeM even typed them all up in an excell spreadsheet as well so you can have an idea of what styles go with which songs.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,67771.msg514440.html#msg514440

Mark