Search behavior very strange on - SX700 - GOOD NEWS today!

dlepera · April 03, 2024, 12:58:39 PM

Hello.
I am sorry that this subject comes up a little to often but it seems that I may still not have a very clear understanding of how this arranger software handles a simple thing like a search function.

Considering past posts on how these USBs behave, should and should not be created, populated, managed, ie: moving files from one folder to the other, not put loads and loads of file folders, files on a usb, don't fire up many usbs at a time, etc...

However for some time now I have been taking somethings as normal behavior but I think it is time to get a really good understanding of what is going on with my keyboard(SX700).

Simple. I have a 4gb USB in Fats32 and only 3 style files, 1 folder with a 108 mp3 files utilizing only 534mb and the rest of the USB is free.

Issue Scenario:

Power up my keyboard with only this one USB and user memory is pretty clean. Go to menu and check my keyboard storage result. User is 821.64mb Free and Usb1 is 3.21gb free. All good I say so far.

I exit back to the style function and can view the MP3 folder name and I see my 3 styles which I can select and play with no issues. Still all looks good.

Now I want to just do the simple search test which is what I have been annoyed with for a long time when searching styles:

I select the USB1 while in the style search function , tap on USB1 , the screen populates with what is on my USB1(a folder and 3 styles). I now select the hour glass for the search. In this case the only styles on the USB are two styles with "Lady" as the first name and one with "Beatle".

This is where things go strange. I get a message on the upper right of the screen that says "The number of search results has exceeded the limit" and then I get 10 pages of style names which are not even in my User or USB Folder. In fact if I search something that has never existed on any of my previous USB and never searched, like the name "JUNK" I get a blank result, if I search for something like "Good" which have style names that I searched on my previous USBs it populates the list. Then of course if I try to load I get the famous message "File not found, or file name is in appropriate" which is correct as the loaded USB or the User memory does not have that file to load.

So the bottom line is where are all these names coming from? Does the keyboard have all my previous searches and file names loaded in some part of memory that needs to be refeshed, flushed, etc.. Kind of like a bad registry entry or cache on a computer??

Note: I have rebooted and and reset the keyboard, left this usb connected with the keyboard on for hours, but the results are the same.

I am almost ready to factory reset this thing but I will have lots of work after to put in the latest upgrade, then reload my Expansion packs, etc. So looking to avoid this activity if possible. All other functions of the keyboard work as they should, only this search is my issue. And by the way it does the same for Registration searches.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

dom

Lacko · April 04, 2024, 02:22:24 AM

Hi dom,
sources of problems lay always in the past, not at present time. If I remember well, you mentioned some time ago, that you have more than 25000 styles in your keyboard. Maybe that some part of memory where index files are stored, was overflown and somehow never cleaned/refreshed afterwards. Try to ask Yamaha service how to clean the whole memory so that nothing can stay there. But I am afraid that full factory reset is the first step :-(

Lacko

Lefty · April 04, 2024, 08:02:30 AM

The SX series keyboards have a known bug that affects all the search functions. Affected keyboards will exhibit the symptoms you describe when ANY search is performed, not just styles.

I worked with second level Yamaha support for a couple of months on my SX900. Nothing we did would make the search functions work again. Yamaha finally sent me a new keyboard under warranty. Since Yamaha doesn't know what triggers this bug, I NEVER put any usb drives in this keyboard now. It won't be under warranty now, and who would want a keyboard without a working search function?

Apparently, Some keyboards are able to recover, some don't. Mine didn't.

Yamaha has known about this bug for years now. I suspect that it doesn't affect enough users to go to the expense of fixing it, so don't hold your breath for an update.

Best Regards,
Craig

dlepera · April 04, 2024, 10:55:43 AM

Gentlemen.
Appreciate the feedback. Don't like the response about the bug though. WOW!. That is rather a silly bug for such a basic and common software function.

Lacko your memory serves you correctly. Since then I have done some reductions on what is stored on external memory.

Craig I would assume that you did do the factory reset? If you did and that did not work, then I would say that it's not a software related issue as a complete factory reset of any device, wipes everything in volatile and only some parts of non-volatile storage. If there should be an area of non-volatile(non-writable storage) then the issue I would think resides in the resident storage device it's self which I think then the only solution is to replace the device, in your case the keyboard.

Please let me know if you did the factory reset and what result you got so that I can do mine and compare my results. Also if you have a contact name or phone number of the person that you dealt with, it might expedite things for me should I need to go your route. However, I would doubt that they would replace the keyboard which is 3yrs old but I do have extended warranty which I pay yearly on my keyboard for anything that should go wrong so maybe I might have to go that route.

PS: I noticed that I can format my USER storage. Going to do that first, curious will it knock out my Expansion Packs or is that in a different storage area of the keyboard?

I just read a post which talks about my expansion pack stored memory location as described by Chris. So I think I have my answer and will be formatting my USER storage area.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=56219.0
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=56405.0

Many thanks for your feedback. Regards dom

dlepera · April 05, 2024, 12:22:23 AM

Something of note on this subject:

Everything that I have read on this forum about factory reset stating that if you do so, the instrument will be reset to what it was like out of the box is "WRONG".

There is one exception post where Chris stated that not everything will be reset, and that is correct.

I did enter the MENU2, selected UTILITY, then FACTORY RESET/BACKUP, checked off all 6 areas to be reset and selected the Factory Reset and replied "YES". The keyboard went into Executing state for 22.16 seconds.
Did this 12 times, yes 12 times and results were the same every time.

Then powered off the keyboard. Even went as far as unplugging it, then holding down the Power button for 20 seconds for the heck of it as that is what you do to your laptop to ensure a complete factory reset and memory flush(at least for Lenovo). Plugged the keyboard back in and noticed that NOT everything got reset as most people think. My Owner Name that I put on my Keyboard which is displayed during the power on cycle, the software version level is 1.11 and not sure if this the old or current. How stupid is that? Owner name not getting reset!!!! My God Yamaha, what are you guys thinking'. Perhaps I should give them a lesson in Assembler programming.

Tried the search and that did not get corrected. There has to be a file name list somewhere in resident memory of all previous searches that does not get flushed/reset. What a rude awakening!

What kind of software is this. Image if your cell phones used this silly factory reset logic?

?

I had also contacted Yamaha Canada with this issue yesterday and there "Yamaha Support" is what I call an oxymoron. Some support when there tech tells you to do a soft reset and/or a factory reset and if that does not work it is an odd case and perhaps a technician needs to look at this. That is all he had to say. You folks in this forum seem to know more than the manufacture's technical support staff. Perhaps they should read through these forum posts and educate themselves before recommending and advising their customers on related questions and issues.

I am very frustrated with the behavior logic of Factory/Reset and not done with Yamaha Canada yet.

Anyway, will proceed to install the latest update on the keyboard, re-install the expansion packs and personalize this thing again.

I apologize if I sound like I am venting, but for the cost of this keyboard, this is really appalling!... I would hate if this happened to any Genos owner after paying your big bucks for these beautify instruments and Yamaha giving you the same response as me.

Good luck to all! dom

dlepera · April 05, 2024, 01:39:19 AM

Observation:
While trying to install my expansion packs I get a message saying ...Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi). What is this telling me... Note that I did do the "Restore Pre-Installed Expansion Contents" and that went ok. It loaded Africa, Europe, Latin America and Oriental and they work fine.

dom

Divemaster · April 05, 2024, 02:33:40 AM

Hi Dom

I'm following your post with great interest, because I have 2x SX700's and I would also be pretty annoyed. read furious, if this situation arose.
Having had one keyboard recently replaced by Yamaha due to a recurring issue not related to your storage issue, I sympathise.

Only intervention by my dealer solved the problem. Yamaha themselves have admitted that they have 'no idea' what the actual cause is!

So I ask the question, well who is actually building and programming these keyboards these days? Has the manufacturing process become less stringent? Who do you get help from when Yamaha can't help?

Far from Venting, I think you're absolutely right to want answers. Being unable to COMPLETELY CLEAR the User memory is ludicrous.

I'm sure that if it started becoming an issue on their super dooper G2 somebody would soon take notice!

What part of the electronics holds this unwanted cache? Where on the board is it? Why can't that component be replaced?
If Yamaha don't have the answer then maybe a Sixth grade junior programmer can solve it? I can clear the cache on my tablet, my pc's and my phones, so why can't I clear it on a keyboard?

Is it that they just can't be bothered to have a simple Factory Reset that does what it should do? Amazing nonchalance by a major music instrument manufacturer manufacturer!

Are they even bothered... In which case they will sure as heck soon be losing customers.

Any of you guys who have NOT had a problem with your keyboards, don't think this can't happen to you, because as Dom has rightly illustrated, the Helpline guys at Yamaha, are actually pretty poor, and you too will start to get pretty hacked off after spending your hard earned, and not getting answers! You WILL I guarantee it!

I've grown up round all sorts of computers, as most of my generation including you have. I find today's simple "Oh well.. It can't be fixed so tough" attitude really infuriating!

The big smile when they take your cash is replaced by the 'Suck it up shrug' when things go wrong!

Not good enough. I hope you get, or find resolution.
Like I said, I think more than a few of us are watching this post with interest, because it is worrying.

Over to you Yamaha! You need to sort this out for your customers. Dom in particular!

Keith.

Lefty · April 05, 2024, 08:46:47 AM

Quote from: dlepera on April 04, 2024, 10:55:43 AM
Craig I would assume that you did do the factory reset? If you did and that did not work, then I would say that it's not a software related issue as a complete factory reset of any device, wipes everything in volatile and only some parts of non-volatile storage. If there should be an area of non-volatile(non-writable storage) then the issue I would think resides in the resident storage device it's self which I think then the only solution is to replace the device, in your case the keyboard.

Hi Dom,

Both Chris and Yamaha support suggested the factory reset. That was performed multiple times, along with many other tests Yamaha support suggested to try to get the keyboard to erase the indexes it dynamically creates and stores in non-volatile memory. None of these were successful. My keyboard was just 3 or 4 months old when this problem occurred, so it was under warranty when Yamaha replaced it.

(Dom, I'm considering non-volatile memory to be memory that is not affected by a power off event. So RAM as volatile memory, and hard disk or SSD as non-volatile memory. ROM is a different beast, and I'm fairly sure no indexes or user information are stored there, just the OS, and other low level utilities)

I've seen threads where people are hoping for an update to the SX series with new pianos, etc. I'd just be happy with bug fixes for the known bugs, so our keyboards would perform as advertised by Yamaha. Unfortunately, since Yamaha has been aware of this particular bug for at least 3 years, I don't believe a bug fix is forthcoming before this product reaches end of life.

Best of luck with this!
Craig

dlepera · April 05, 2024, 10:07:37 AM

Hello Gentlemen. Thanks again for your support.

Looks like this road is going to be a very interesting, least to say challenging. I will wait and see how Yamaha responds to my emails as there is an active case opened on this issue. May just be another sticky note on their wall and not given any traction, who knows. In the interim I will be making calls to Yamaha keyboard repair technicians to see if any of them have ever experienced or even resolved this particular issue. I just can't exercise my after market warranty options to find that after they handle my keyboard, their end result will be that they too could not fix the problem. Sometimes the only options we may have in life is to leave well enough alone and live with what we have rather than maybe making things worse by trying to fix something that may still have some functionality.

If I may ask, I did state that I was working to load my expansion packs and that is giving me an issue. I don't think it is related to this issue, but I don't understand why I am getting the message
"Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi)" I hope it's not another software bug with the keyboard? YEM seems very easy to use but I used it a while back to load the Packs and frankly I was luck that I managed to get things to work based on the info that I read on the form then. Now I am kind of stuck.

If anyone knows why I am getting this message I would appreciated any feedback. Maybe I should open another post on that subject, but then again could it be related to this one that I am having.

Frustration just compounds these days. I just hope that this one is just my brain software problem that with your help it can easily be resolved.

Regards....... dom

overover · April 05, 2024, 11:55:13 AM

Quote from: dlepera on April 05, 2024, 10:07:37 AM
Hello Gentlemen. Thanks again for your support. ...

If I may ask, I did state that I was working to load my expansion packs and that is giving me an issue. I don't think it is related to this issue, but I don't understand why I am getting the message
"Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi)" I hope it's not another software bug with the keyboard? YEM seems very easy to use but I used it a while back to load the Packs and frankly I was luck that I managed to get things to work based on the info that I read on the form then. Now I am kind of stuck.

If anyone knows why I am getting this message I would appreciated any feedback. ...

Hi Dom,

The trick is to manually change the File Type from .pqi/.cqi (Quick Installation) to .ppi/.cpi (Full Installation) when saving the Pack Install File. Also see this post:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,67313.msg507662.html#msg507662

By the way, the Sample data of the Expansion Voices are stored in the Expansion Memory, i.e. not in the internal User drive. BUT all other content of the installed Expansion Packs (e.g.the Voice files that call uo the Expansion Voices, the Styles, Registration Bank files, Multi Pad Bank files that contain to the Packs is stored in the "Expansion" folder in the USER drive. This means, if you format the USER drive, you have to re-install all Expansion Packs.

Best regards,
Chris

dlepera · April 05, 2024, 01:12:12 PM

Hi Chris.

Bingo!. Worked like a charm. This time I did noticed YEM doing a lot more activity with the pack create and save once the extension was changed as you suggested.

If only my search issue was that simple.

Best regards! dom

Aquilauno · April 05, 2024, 01:20:02 PM

Hi Dlepera, this is from the research is a big problem that I had raised more than three years ago (February 2020) when I purchased my sx900 (observing this malfunction of the serch function). But I hadn't had any feedback from other users in the forum, I assume, for several reasons; 1) the keyboard had only recently come out and was yet to be discovered. 2) many users rightly believed, based on the past (Tyros, PSR and Genos), that keyboards carry out an automatic update of the USB index, that this update is influenced by the number of files stored on the stick for which it was necessary give it time. 3) Anyone who does not face this bug cannot understand the problem. 4) many don't use the search function. Now I'll tell you what happened to me 22 days after purchasing my SX900 in the midst of the Covid pandemic (I live in Italy/near Rome), with the total impossibility of Yamaha technical assistance. Playing with the favorites I memorized the maximum number possible and then I deleted them. I turn off the SX900 and the next time I restart it the boot doesn't complete, the keyboard remains on the Yamaha logo. I contact support and after a series of emails, they say that the motherboard must be replaced, but due to covid the time for the repair is unknown, I say no gentlemen after 22 days of life, the keyboard must be replaced and not repaired, it starts an unnerving correspondence until a firmware update comes out that "magically" brings the keyboard back to life (which didn't need any repairs, I was sure it was only a software problem). What I always thought was that the "O.S." was created for Genos and it has been adapted to the SX series, it is not a tailor-made dress, but cut out and sewn together, evidently with some patches here and there (especially the allocation memory, where the boot and probably the index storage also resides USB or whatever). In short, in my opinion, the favorites they occupied a part of the memory dedicated to boot, overwriting it and compromising the startup of the keyboard. The situation was then restored with the new firmware which put things back in place. A similar thing must have happened for the search function, a large number of files present on the USB compromised the function and this time either because the bug went unnoticed or because perhaps it is impossible to correct the problem with a new firmware , after 4 years the release of a new firmware for the SX series is unlikely to see the light of day also due to the few (?!) cases ascertained and reported to Yamaha. This is what I think and I'm almost certain that it is so... unfortunately two months ago I reported the problem again to Yamaha Italia, but 1) they didn't have the availability (?!) of an SX900 to check at the moment 2) until today I didn't hear anything else (they must have become unavailable lol). I have resigned myself, I am waiting for the heir to come out to give it back, hoping that the retailer does not agree with the problem of the search function. And let's face it, , the research managed it is, really, with your feet... greetings Pietro

dlepera · April 05, 2024, 01:58:15 PM

Hello Aquilanuno

Thank you for sharing your experience. Bottom line as you stated, because this issue only affects a few, little will be done to action a resolution. Although, in my eyes it is a simple software fix and this can all go away with a version software upgrade. As we are more and more realizing, everything is about the money and no longer is the focus on quality.

You know we are our own worst enemies!. Why, because today we don't fight back(not violence of course) but by boycotting, demonstrating our disappointment ensuring that manufactures feel the pinch one way or another. But we are just little flies that may never make an impact to get back to the days where "quality control" and customer satisfaction was the number 1 priority of manufactures. I can't speak for those that have keyboards prior to the Genos and SX but I see more used Genos and SX on the market for sale than those older ones. Maybe it's just me and my limited surfing skill, but judging from what I read on this forum the old seems to be out weighing the new when it comes to quality.

BTW I got a suggestion from a Korg tech who said that Korg on occasion has similar search issues and their resolution which worked every time was to open the keyboard and unplug everything connected to the mother board. Wait a while then connect things back and case closed. He has never had a chance to try it for a search on a Yamaha, but did get an SX900 with a buzz in the left speaker where the customer was told he needed a new mother board at 1/2 the cost of the keyboard. He took the approach of unplugging all the connectors from the mother board, waited 1 hours, plugged the pin connectors all back and the problem never came back. We can call it luck, a fluke, whatever and maybe we all need to start thinking outside the box these days as we never know what will work or will not work anymore.

Gone are the days of the old technicians that took pride in their skill and fixed rather than replaced.

I am hearing a lot of horror stories when talking to these keyboard technicians(call 6 so far today) and sorry to say the newer Yamahas are on the top of their list with motherboard issues. Don't quote me on this as I have no way of validating their claims, but, why would they lie?

I will keep you posted if and when I make any positive progress on this.

dom

BogdanH · April 05, 2024, 03:26:02 PM

hi dom
Although I agree with you... The thing is, midrange keyboards are considered as mass product and only a small fraction of owners come to this forum. How to "boycot"? If 50 people coming here decide to do that, it wouldn't be even noticed by Yamaha that something is going on (thousands would still buy it).
And that's why I appreciate forums: I collect feedbacks and then I decide (for me personally) if I will boycot certain keyboard or not -and that's all we can do, I guess.

Bogdan

Amwilburn · April 05, 2024, 03:38:34 PM

Or you could get your salesperson to contact Yamaha on your behalf,

Mark

dlepera · April 05, 2024, 06:08:31 PM

Hi Mark, you read my mind.

Here in Markham, we don't have a big keyboard store, but in the USA there are some big Yamaha music stores. In fact there are some utube videos where Sweetwater demos with Yamaha reps so I think I am going to reach out to them for a contact name and go from there.

Now for an update on my keyboard. I got it all set up back to what it was before the factory reset. This time with only the expansion packs added and one USB with 3 styles, I decided to do a search on one of those styles and of course it populated all that old stuff on the list and did not find my selected style which I figure it would not.

I remember back some time ago I had asked a question in a post when the search was working and that was:

"when I add a new file style, midi, audio, regit, to my usb or user memory, why is the keyboard not finding it"
If my memory serves me correctly, the response was that I need to keep the keyboard on for a while and some magic would take place where a list will get refreshed and then I can find it in my search. I did that and it in fact worked as I did find the specific file name later in the search back then.

So, this time I decided to keep my keyboard on and just left things in the standard style screen function. Walked away for about 20 minutes(keyboard set to turn off after 30min of inactivity). When I came back there was a popup on my screen with the usual grey box look with this message:

"not enough space in the specific storage" I pressed ok of course to get out of the screen.

Very informative message right? No clue what specific storage it is referring too.

Could it be that perhaps the keyboard is trying to populate it's list with the new styles(that function may be working nice) but when it tries to add the file names to the list it can't because that area of storage is in fact full since the old list has not be flushed?

Just a thought, using my own trouble shooting logic here on the Root Cause to this problem:

1. Go into any function style, regit, midi, audio, and select anything that has not be searched for before
and even play it to ensure that it works and remembers it
2. Now do a search on something on the old list previously selected for that function...say style function
3. The search will default to what was selected in point #1 but of course not what was searched
3a. However it generates ***** The number of search results has exceeded limit *******
4. Keeping all parameters the same, I now search something totally new like "junk"
5. Keyboard goes into Executing mode and brings back a nul find. No exceeded limit message generated
6. So this tells me that the search executable function works

I am speculating that this area of storage that houses the search list is not handling "last recently used" logic properly. Based on what I stated earlier from that previous post to leave the keyboard on, I guess it attempts to update like a search directory list of new entries and perhaps refreshes as required. Now this update HITS A BRICK WALL /LIMIT with the max number of entries that can reside there and rather than drop off the LEAST recently used entry and allow for the new one it just stops. An hence the search issue.

So if I am on the right path here(

?) I suspect that over time depending on what the size of this storage is and how many search entries this list can hold, each and everyone of our keyboards will hit this brick wall and end up like me. I hope NOT!!!!!.

This may be why I got hit so soon as I have populated my keyboard with 4 USBs at times and have kept many folders on them with thousands of files in sorted folders. While this can be a lesson learned now, I saw no Caviat in the Ref Manual stating that this practice should not be used unless I missed something. However, it does not absolve Yamaha from it's inability to address/work around this high threshold of search number limit. This is such simple program logic to correct if this is the case.

All I can say is "Yamaha if you are reading this step up to the plate and fix"

dom

Divemaster · April 06, 2024, 02:29:53 AM

Hi Dom

Just following on from your latest post, I learned two things about arrangers over the past 20 years or so which might be worth sharing.

One is to NEVER use any kind of usb hub, whether powered or not.
The other is to keep the number of files on any USB sticks you use to an absolute minimum.

I currently have 8 USB style sticks on the go.
Easy Listening
Jazz/Cocktail Piano
Sax and Country
Midis
Playlists
Favourite Styles
Gig Folders

Using a 12" usb M/F flylead taped to my music rest, I can easily use the stick I want to according to what I want to play. Why they can't put the USB socket on the front of the keyboard escapes me. Just bad design.

I NEVER use Registrations I can't work them out.

I do have another very heavily populated USB stick (all mine are Sandisk) which has pretty well all my files on it, but that one never goes on the keyboard. Just too much on it. It's also backed up regularly to my pc AND to a further standalone SSD 1Tb slave drive.
It's basically my own system of file housekeeping.

I had a conversation recently with one of the guys at AC Hamilton here in the UK. It culminated in the replacement of my SX700. And it concerned styles from other keyboards, added to the keyboard.

The theory was.... If you play your keyboard out of the box, with the styles that come with it, all is ok... The keyboard is all happy! If you start adding styles from other keyboards, that's when the trouble starts.

Well that theory went straight out of the door after I sent them a 2019 clip from a store called BONNERS also in the UK.
Their demonstrator was playing a newly released SX900 which was completely mint. No added styles.
5 minutes into the clip the screen went nuts with the very problem I'd been having. He kept playing, and the fault kept reccurring.
But he never once acknowledged it! Neither did Yamaha.

Further down the line, Yamaha said they hadn't encountered the issue which clearly was untrue.

So I think there needs to be much more openness from Yamaha about sorting out these sort of issues.

CRAIG'S POST in this thread says it all to me.

Quote :
I've seen threads where people are hoping for an update to the SX series with new pianos, etc. I'd just be happy with bug fixes for the known bugs, so our keyboards would perform as advertised by Yamaha. Unfortunately, since Yamaha has been aware of this particular bug for at least 3 years, I don't believe a bug fix is forthcoming before this product reaches end of life.

It's very poor business practice to not deal with problems.
As I previously wrote, I know many of you reading this will never have a problem with your nice new keyboards, but step back a little and see how, frankly, these issues are getting brushed under the rug.... It's not right.

Keith.

Lacko · April 06, 2024, 02:48:47 AM

Hi dom,
did you try that Korg technician advise to unplug all connectors inside keyboard? Or maybe remove and after a while reinsert backup battery if it is there any?
Lacko

Divemaster · April 06, 2024, 03:41:37 AM

Hi Lacko

I don't think the current crop of Yamaha arrangers have any sort of backup batteries? You're probably thinking like pc CMOS ones.

And does anyone have a Service /Stripdown Manual for SX keyboards to even know how to open the keyboard to remove the motherboard connectors?

(Obviously only once the warranty expires).

Seems like a very unsatisfactory situation!
Sorry, but why on earth should customers be putting up with this? It's reflecting very badly on Yamaha as a brand. Look out you G2 owners... It can happen to you too.

Keith

Lacko · April 06, 2024, 04:48:53 AM

Hi Keith,

there are some videos about disassembling Yamaha SX keyboards, like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7mmaXsuPAs, but warranty is then another question. It is just for the case that Yamaha technicians cannot help you, what looks like very probable situation with this problem.

Lacko

dlepera · April 06, 2024, 08:54:37 AM

Hello Lacko

I have considered that, but as Keith stated there is no strip down manual, nor would I would I want to screw something up and then regret it. I do have extended warranty that I pay yearly and just found out that software issues are not under warranty. I wounder why? This instrument warranty company must know what we are finding out, so EVERYTHING on mine except software issues are covered to the point that they will replace the keyboard if necessary.

My take speculative take on this whole thing is that Yamaha is seeing too many older keyboards like the Tyros and it's predecessors that are still running like a charm after so long that they can not afford to keep building robust keyboards. Since material science has advanced so much these days it is kind of hard to produce inferior material quality breakdown, so one place to hide "built in obsolescence" would be in software and GUI interface capabilities. As we know software not only can render the device a nuisance to own to the point that most people just want to replace it because of the inconvenience, but also trigger an internal hardware software disconnect to the point that cost to repair these days forces us to buy new. For those that can afford new or just want to keep up with the latest and greatest, this is a moot point. For those of us that just want to save to buy something nice, enjoyable, and with hope that it can last a long time this sort of issue is kind of a let down.

I am waiting to see what Yamaha has to say next week if they don't decide to brush this whole thing off.

dom

BogdanH · April 06, 2024, 10:42:02 AM

hi dom
PSR-SX900/700 service manual is circulating on internet and if you're interested I can send it to you. But to benefit from it, certain electronic knowledge is required, though.

As can be seen on Youtube, disassembling and assembling the keyboard is relative simple. I did that (greased the keybed) and I had no problems at all. However, if you don't feel confident, then just don't do it.
Anyway, your issue is purely software based and so there's no point to open the keyboard (looking inside won't help).

What amazes me about Yamaha arrangers is the fact, that "full factory reset" (as from the box state) simply doesn't exist. That would obviously solve your problem (I say "your", because I don't use search function at all).

Bogdan

dlepera · April 06, 2024, 11:50:44 AM

Hi Bogdan

Appreciate the offer of the manual. Sure I would like to see it. The more we learn the better it is. If it is simple I might just for the heck of it open it and unpin everything on the mother board. May do nothing but the way I see it "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

You know, I still can't figure out why they can use the term "factory reset" when really all they provide is "fuzzy reset". And weather or not a function is used, if it is part and parcel of the package then it should work.

It's just tooo bad that these keyboards are pricey else I would love to test my theory of how this search list is managed and see if I can get it to hit the brick wall of the max search limit. I know how to test it now and I know that once I got that message my search stopped. If I could prove this well, then all the keyboards using the software in my SX700 and understanding that it is the same in the SX900 and Genos, might inevitably end up in the same state. You would be the exception of course since you do not use the search facility.

Thanks for the offer. dom

dom

pjd · April 06, 2024, 12:03:22 PM

Looking at the service manual, there is no battery. Persistent settings are stored in non-volatile flash memory.

Recent Yamaha arrangers have a "Stand-by/ON" switch. That means electricity is still flowing to the keyboard in the "Stand-by" state. You can completely remove power by unplugging the keyboard.

There is no need to disassemble the arranger in order to remove power, etc. Please don't do this...

-- pj

pjd · April 06, 2024, 12:16:27 PM

I would be more comfortable working through the existing software interface and functions for factory reset.

There are two ways to perform a so-called "Factory Reset". Method number 1 is described on page 98 of the SX900/SX700 Owner's Manual. In stand-by (so-called "off"), hold the right-most key and turn power ON while holding the key down.

Method number 2 is performed through the Utility Menu described starting on page 129 of the SX900/SX700 Reference Manual. There is a TAB called "Factory Reset/Backup". You can choose the specific kind of data to be initialized using the check boxes.

If all else fails, there is the "Storage" TAB in the Utility Menu. It's possible to format the USER drive. This is an extreme option and I have never used it. If you reformat the USER drive, it's fully your responsibility, not mine. I recommend discussing this option with Yamaha customer support before re-formatting.

Hope this info helps and please be careful -- pj

Amwilburn · April 06, 2024, 01:07:21 PM

Quote from: dlepera on April 06, 2024, 08:54:37 AM
Hello Lacko

I have considered that, but as Keith stated there is no strip down manual, nor would I would I want to screw something up and then regret it. I do have extended warranty that I pay yearly and just found out that software issues are not under warranty. I wounder why? This instrument warranty company must know what we are finding out, so EVERYTHING on mine except software issues are covered to the point that they will replace the keyboard if necessary.

Unfortunately, that's industry standard. I can tell you that's typical; manufacturer's warranty specifically are for materials and workmanship being faulty during the warranty period; nobody *blanket* covers software issues because of how unpredictable that can be. Not just keyboards; Sony PLaystations and Microsoft XBox's have been 'bricked' by updates, and thankfully Microsoft came up with a way to factory reset your console even in bricked mode. Sony requires it to be sent to them; if it's still under warranty, and they can fix it, then you're in luck. There have been cases where they simply couldn't unbrick it and send a refubrished one (better than nothing) but if it's out of warranty (which used to be only 90 days! from PS1 to PS3! PS5's are now 1 year, thankfully), then you get nothing :/

I'm not saying Yamaha shouldn't be better than the industry standard; they *should* be (a Genos costs a lot more than a console!).

The PSRsx600 actually had an update that bricked it! Which Yamaha removed the update causeing it (I think it was 1.06, and they rolled it back to 1.03); Fortunately they swapped out the bricked PSRsx600's

Mark

Divemaster · April 06, 2024, 04:46:13 PM

What you say is right Mark, and everybody knows that companies sole aim at the end of the day is to be profitable.
But as users of their products, once TRUST in their products becomes questionable, then I think that's the beginning of a dangerous pattern.

All we quite reasonably expect is for a fully working, serviceable keyboard, and for faults to be dealt with transparently and fairly. Not swept under the mat.

Keith

dlepera · April 06, 2024, 06:07:32 PM

Hi PJ

I do heed your warning not to disassemble it and weather or not a device has a battery does not necessary mean that there is no power to the device. Motherboards contain many capacitors and these little guys do one thing, and that is to store power. You may recall back in the day TV's could not be left for garbage pickup unless the capacitor was discharged. Some of those big monsters gave a heck of a spark when discharged, and that was after days, weeks of sitting unplugged some may never discharge on their own. I have no idea how long it takes for a module/processor capacitor to discharge, but I would bet it may be days. A motherboard may contain multiple processors so one capacitor can handle voltage functionality for more than one module. I found this out the hard way as I work on cars as a hobby and sometimes have to tear down computer modules for my own or friends cars. Well I had a multi-chamber cluster module acting funky so I disassemble only part of it and unpinned it much the same as what I am thinking about this keyboard mother board. After I did what I needed to do, I reassemble everything and put it back in the car. well only solved half my issues. Further investigation revealed that I needed to unpin all modules and then short out specific contacts on the pins. That worked and saved $800ca. Maybe that is why my Lenovo PC reset using a pin in the bottom pin hole(manufacture discloses this) got my PC back to a true factory reset and never had a problem since. There other option is to remove the battery(those with external batteries) and hold the power button down for 10+ seconds. This is there soft version of factory reset I think.

So back to the keyboard, as the technician suggested, maybe he knows that unpinning everything may be a way to discharge those capacitors unless he has a little trade secrete on what pins to really cross for a total voltage discharge of the entire motherboard. He did say that he can not manipulate any software so with Yamaha it could be possible that this area of affected storage may not be affected and I pay money without getting further ahead. I might just decide to go for that and let the pro do the work. Worse case, he assumes responsibility for any unforeseen issues as a result of the teardown.(non software related of coruse).

Again, let me see what Yamaha Support comes back with. There is a case opened with them and a ref# so they can not avoid me, at least yet.

Also PJ, everything that you stated and what is in the manual for both soft and factory reset, formatting USER storage was done many times over and over hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel, left the keyboard unplugged for 12 hours then reformatted and did factory reset a bunch more times, but got nowhere. Hence I customized and reloaded everything back to what it was before all this activity. Had I know that this factory reset was as stupid as it is, I could have saved me a lot of time. Then again on the plus side it was a well needed refresher course.

Regards! dom

dom

pjd · April 06, 2024, 08:38:08 PM

Hi Dom —

I just don't want you to go through the effort and expense of taking the keyboard apart when the likely result is negative.

BTW, I both taught electronics and worked as a computer engineer. The capacitors are small and discharge rapidly. They are really intended to level out (regulate) the supply voltage and the time constant involved is minutes at most. They can't really sustain computation or volatile memory. Registrations and other settings are stored in non-volatile flash memory, to be re-loaded at start-up. That's why I think some data is corrupted in the flash memory.

Good luck! I'm very cautious about giving advice over the Web and don't mean to offend anyone.

— pj

P.S. I took TVs apart as a kid and built vacuum tube amplifiers — getting many electrical shocks in the process. I don't miss those days.

dlepera · April 06, 2024, 10:47:45 PM

Hi PJ.

Guess we have something in common. You engineered computers and I programmed in assembler back in days when IBM gave us those beautiful Microfiche and we were able to read our dumps, write code and fix software bugs ourselves. Those were the days and unfortunately they have come to an end.

I really do appreciate your advise and after educating me on the time constant being only minutes for these little guys, it makes sense that there will be no voltage sustainability in any of the board components after power down. So nothing to do with voltage discharge in this case. Data corruption can be the issue. If it was hardware this keyboard would be toast or have obvious failing components. Well you saved me money and time by not doing the teardown and can only hope now that Yamaha comes through for me with something.

The solution as I see it is very simple. Write a simple patch to clear/flash/format the memory and if the memory is not partitioned still do a complete format and then a complete software install with the updated code. No need to change the keyboard or motherboard. Logical solution right?

PS: anyone can give me advise, comments good or bad anytime and I'll always be willing to stand and be corrected. This is the only way to learn.

All the best! dom