Error in the sample or its decay phase of the new piano sample

[Flatlinersholger]

Hello everyone

I noticed yesterday that there was something wrong with the piano sound of a certain key. The decay phase is significantly shorter (at least with my Genos2). But this only applies to the CFX ConcertGrand and the CharacterGrand. It is the key B5 (H5 depending on the spelling) - could also be B4 (H4), I don't know exactly how they are numbered. But it's immediately noticeable when you play the neighboring notes in comparison.

Could someone consciously check this on their Genos2?
If you hit the notes relatively hard one after the other with the sustain depressed, you can clearly hear the significantly shorter decay curve on exactly that one key. But it can also be done without a sustain pedal if you keep the key pressed accordingly.

Would like to find out if this is a general error or if this is just me? Since it's a preset sample, reinstalling my packs wouldn't help.

I'm very curious to see whether you notice this with your Genos2 too.

Best regards
Holger

[mikf]

I don't have a G2 so cannot check this, but it seems unlikely it is a sample fault. Sampling on pianos is done in small groups - the smaller the group the larger the sample file size. To sample every individual note, at a variety of velocities and sustain, would make for a really huge sample file size, not manageable on most keyboards.  So if it was a sampling fault I would expect adjacent notes to have a similar pattern
Mike

[Flatlinersholger]

Hello

sorry, but the Genos2 is not a toy-instrument!

Of course, the sampling of this piano on the Genos2 was recorded individually for each key and in several dynamic levels. So it must be a sampling error.

Greetings
Holger

[BogdanH]

hello Holger,

...
Of course, the sampling of this piano on the Genos2 was recorded individually for each key and in several dynamic levels.

How do you know that?
I ask, because to my knowledge, there's no arranger keyboard that would have voices (drumkits excluded) where for each key a separate sample would be used. What I'm saying is, although piano was probably recorded for each key separately, that doesn't mean that all recorded samples were used at voice creation.
If a voice has 4-5 samples/octave (multi-layered), then that's already considered as high quality voice. However, many voices (also in Genos)  have only 2-3 samples/octave.

Bogdan

[Flatlinersholger]

hello Bogdan


because that is how it is advertised for the Genos2 by Yamaha itself:"

"The CFX, Yamaha's flagship piano, now features more dynamic layers, 88-key sampling and doubled sample length compared to its predecessor,,

[Amwilburn]

Yes, it's advertised as 88 notes individually sampled for each piano, with multiple dynamic strike levels per key.

However, I couldn't find the note you were talking about? B5 would be the highest B on the keyboard at the 0 octave offset setting; I heard no difference in length. However, perhaps you had a lot of reverb on that would effect the "tail"; if you turn the reverb off, the note matches it's adjacent notes in sustain.

Fun fact, at the Ab just below that up to the highest C on a piano, on a real piano those keys have no dampers, so they all automatically sustain regardless if you step on the pedal or not.

Mark

[pjd]

It is the key B5 (H5 depending on the spelling) - could also be B4 (H4), I don't know exactly how they are numbered. But it's immediately noticeable when you play the neighboring notes in comparison.

Holger

Hello Holger --

Yamaha has their own note naming system. One way to eliminate ambiguity is to identify the MIDI note number. You'll probably need a MIDI monitor program like MIDI-OX.

Viele Grüße -- pj

[Flatlinersholger]

Hello

and sorry. Now I'm at home on my Genos2.
I've recorded the key in this moment as a Midifile and look with the Step Editor:
t's the key B3.

Edit: and I just realized that it's not always. I turned off the Genos2 and now it's just fine. I'll keep an eye on it and report back if the error occurs again.

Best regards
Holger

[overover]

... I noticed yesterday that there was something wrong with the piano sound of a certain key. The decay phase is significantly shorter (at least with my Genos2). But this only applies to the CFX ConcertGrand and the CharacterGrand. It is the key B5 (H5 depending on the spelling) - could also be B4 (H4), I don't know exactly how they are numbered. But it's immediately noticeable when you play the neighboring notes in comparison.

Could someone consciously check this on their Genos2?
If you hit the notes relatively hard one after the other with the sustain depressed, you can clearly hear the significantly shorter decay curve on exactly that one key. But it can also be done without a sustain pedal if you keep the key pressed accordingly.

Would like to find out if this is a general error or if this is just me? Since it's a preset sample, reinstalling my packs wouldn't help. ...

Hi Holger,

Can the problem described also be heard via headphones? (To rule out problems with room acoustics / room resonances.)


Best regards,
Chris

[Flatlinersholger]

Hello Chris,

it is definitely only with this one key (B3)
It has nothing to do with room acoustics or the various audio outputs. It's an error in the basic sample.

But after I turned the Genos2 off and on again, it was fine, but now, in this moment, the error can be heard again.

[mikf]

Mark - did the Genos 1 have 88 note samples on piano voices, and even on Genos 2 are all the piano voices sampled on  88 notes? Reason I ask is that I know that minor third sampling was very common even on some pretty decent digitals. Maybe this has changed with more  memory availability.
And I doubt anyway it can be a basic sample fault if it happens randomly. If it was on the sample it wouldn't just 'go away'.
Mike

[Flatlinersholger]

The Genos2 has been switched on for about 3 hours, with a short interruption.
Now I play the keys one after the other:From the very bottom over G3 - G#3 - A3 - Bb3, everything is ok - then comes B3 and the sound (the decay-level) ends faster. C4 - C#4 and so on everything is ok again.

[Amwilburn]

Mark - did the Genos 1 have 88 note samples on piano voices, and even on Genos 2 are all the piano voices sampled on  88 notes? Reason I ask is that I know that minor third sampling was very common even on some pretty decent digitals. Maybe this has changed with more  memory availability.
And I doubt anyway it can be a basic sample fault if it happens randomly. If it was on the sample it wouldn't just 'go away'.
Mike

I actually can't find my internal dealer spec sheet on the G1, but no, I don't think it did; yes it's common to have every 3rd note sampled, Clavinovas used to be that way as well (CLP170); but it's not as new as you might think; most Clavinovas in the last decade or so are also sampled on all 88 notes individually; the CLP170 was a 2002 model.

The Genos 2 they said all the new samples are individually sampled on all 88. That would mean the new CFX, Steinway, U1, U3 (I still haven't checked if the C7 was the old one or a new samples)

Mark

[Amwilburn]

The Genos2 has been switched on for about 3 hours, with a short interruption.
Now I play the keys one after the other:From the very bottom over G3 - G#3 - A3 - Bb3, everything is ok - then comes B3 and the sound (the decay-level) ends faster. C4 - C#4 and so on everything is ok again.

Mikf is right, the sample absolutely does *not* change with being turned on or off. Something else is happening on your G2.

[Flatlinersholger]

It's clear that the sample doesn't change when you turn it off. 

I'll keep watching it and wait for it to happen again - for now everything is fine again.
Thank you all for your help,

Holger