Transpose Part (voice)

[jimlaing]

I can't seem to find where one can transpose a single 'part' (such as Right3) ... I can see how to "fine tune" the voice, and how to change the octave of the voice, but I can't seem to find (on keyboard or in the manual) how to 'transpose' a voice or part, such as going up 5 semitones or 7, for a special effect I'm trying to do.

Can some one help?  I'm sure it's in the manual, but I looked up 'transpose' and 'pitch' etc., and can't seem to find where to do this. 

Thanks!
Jim

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Jim,

As far as I know, Transpose is a global function. It affects all parts. I've thought of trying to create harmonies the same way but I don't think you can do it. Maybe someone has cracked the secret?

[BogdanH]

As you have found out, on keyboard we can only transpose single note for up to (less than) one semitone. This is used to fine tune certain tones of the voice to make it compatible with instrument (i.e. guitar) that some other musician is played. Btw. I don't think that we do that often on keyboard, because the keyboard is usually perfectly tuned -unless voice creator wasn't careful.

I assume, what you wish to create is harmonies -sorry, I'm not that familiar with terminology. For example, when you press C key, R1 should play C note and R2 should play E note. That way we can achieve interesting effect: for example, by playing single notes, it sounds like two clarinets are playing in duet.
Someone would say "why not simply use R1 voice and play both (C and E) notes?". Well, that's just only imitation of real duet: because two clarinets (played by two different musicians) will never sound the same. Beside that, what if we wish diatonic sax and clarinet?

Anyway, we can only achieve that in YEM (particular voice must be unlocked, obviously). Depending on what kind of harmonies we wish to create ("thirds" are quite often used) it can be more or less complicated to achieve desired result (see example in this video).

Bogdan

[DerekA]

It's a very standard option in a synth which has multiple oscillators to be able to set them at intervals (5th, 3rd being most common). So I can understand it being a surprise that this is not possible on the Yamaha arrangers via the panel, much like restricting the voice to only sound over a certain range. It's another one of those things that you would think it would be simple to be implement, but it's never made it onto the final feature list.

[BogdanH]

I know what you mean Derek.
Such things actually show the main difference between synth and arranger: synths are primary voices oriented, where arrangers are more composing (rhythm) oriented.
But yeah, I really have no idea why transposing a voice by certain amount of semitones isn't implemented on arrangers.. at least not on Yamaha.

Bogdan

[DaPaleRider]

Maybe you can use the harmony feature if your keyboard supports it.

[jimlaing]

I'm fairly sure I used to be able to do this on Tyros ... I was indeed going to create a 5th for a synth sound, or I wanted to play a harp glissando on all-black-keys (pentatonic scale) but I wanted to transpose the voice up a certain amount to get the notes I wanted etc. 

It's a bit different from using the "Harmony" effect, which can somewhat do some of this but not quite what I want. 

-J

[ton37]

I can't seem to find where one can transpose a single 'part' (such as Right3) ... I can see how to "fine tune" the voice, and how to change the octave of the voice, but I can't seem to find (on keyboard or in the manual) how to 'transpose' a voice or part, such as going up 5 semitones or 7, for a special effect I'm trying to do.

Can some one help?  I'm sure it's in the manual, but I looked up 'transpose' and 'pitch' etc., and can't seem to find where to do this. 

Thanks!
Jim

Could this be something for you? <STYLE CREATOR><SFF EDIT><PLAY ROOT/CHORD> along with the <HIGH KEY/NOTE LIMIT> ?. You can set this for each channel of the style

[BogdanH]

@Ton
No, those settings serve totally different purpose -it doesn't transpose notes.

Bogdan

[Joe H]

You might be able to do this with software on the PC using MixMaster or StyleMagic.

Joe H

[pjd]

Hi Jim --

Seems like we ought to know how to do this...   

Yamaha usually calls this function "note shift" as distinct from "transpose" as others have noted. The XG synthesis engine knows how to do this (See the XG MULTI-PART MIDI definitions). The trick is setting the note shift for a keyboard voice.

Gotta run, but I hope this comment points in the right direction -- pj

[BogdanH]

Just so we don't slide into wrong direction... Jim (OP) was asking about shifting/transposing notes for RH voices.

Bogdan

[DerekA]

Perhaps there is an undocumented SY***?

I can see this (possibly) being supported in some way for MIDI file payback (via the XG spec) but Yamaha often surprise us with things being different on the panel parts.

[ton37]

Just so we don't slide into wrong direction... Jim (OP) was asking about shifting/transposing notes for RH voices.

Bogdan

You're right @Bogdan, I thought it was about style editing. Althought I don't read exactly what @JimLaing wants, I have discovered that the new functions assigned to knobs/sliders and joystick are worth studying and trying out. As an example: you can lock a voice on <right3> to an x number of pitches higher or lower using the <HOLD> function on the assigned effects using the Joystick (or the sliders?). This means that Right 1 and 2 remain at the same pitch and Right 3 is then an x number of pitches higher. It is a relatively undiscovered area I think, so one has to delve into it to see the possibilities. Maybe it meets what the OP wants??

[terryB]

Jim, I believe you have or used to have a Vconsole, Is it possible to do what you wish to trial using an altered tuning on this ?
Cheers
Terry

[DerekA]

You're right @Bogdan, I thought it was about style editing. Althought I don't read exactly what @JimLaing wants, I have discovered that the new functions assigned to knobs/sliders and joystick are worth studying and trying out. As an example: you can lock a voice on <right3> to an x number of pitches higher or lower using the <HOLD> function on the assigned effects using the Joystick (or the sliders?). This means that Right 1 and 2 remain at the same pitch and Right 3 is then an x number of pitches higher. It is a relatively undiscovered area I think, so one has to delve into it to see the possibilities. Maybe it meets what the OP wants??

That is *very* interesting. Can you give some step-by-step instructions on how you achieved this "lock" ?

[BogdanH]

Ok, I've been thinking about this and came to conclusion, that there would be no benefit if we could transpose a single voice by fixed amount of semitones -because intervals don't have fixed number of semitones between two notes.

[Wim]

I know what you mean Derek.
Such things actually show the main difference between synth and arranger: synths are primary voices oriented, where arrangers are more composing (rhythm) oriented.
But yeah, I really have no idea why transposing a voice by certain amount of semitones isn't implemented on arrangers.. at least not on Yamaha.

Bogdan
[/quote
I don't know if I exactly understand what you mean? Maybe this video help you. It is in German but with Google Translate you can follow it.

https://keyboard-akademie.de/2023/12/13/mull-of-kintyre-so-erstellst-du-den-fast-perfekten-dudelsack/

rgds
Wim

[ton37]

That is *very* interesting. Can you give some step-by-step instructions on how you achieved this "lock" ?

Open the Live control display: <Direct Access>+<touch a slider>

Hi, a short explanation, as there are quit some possibilities with the knobs/sliders and/or joystick.

In this example one can set the Right3 and control the 'Pitch' or 'octave' with the <SLIDER>
Just pay attention to the botomline in the display to (un)check the <RIGHT 3>.

For any effect/assignement to various sliders/knobs ther are zillion other settings. 


[attachment unavailable]

[KurtAgain]

Ok, I've been thinking about this and came to conclusion, that there would be no benefit if we could transpose a single voice by fixed amount of semitones -because intervals don't have fixed number of semitones between two notes.

I don't understand what you mean. A major third, for example, is always spanning four semitones.

Edit: I think I understand now what you mean: The distance between two notes of a given scale is not the same for all notes.

[BogdanH]

...
In this example one can set the Right3 and control the 'Pitch' or 'octave' with the <SLIDER>
...

'Pitch' is actually 'Pitch Bend Range' and so valid only for joystick. It's the same as MENU->Menu2->Keyboard/Joystick->Joystick setting -except if Genos has something drastically different.

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

@Kurt
Yes. For example: C+4semi=C+E =ok, D+4semi=D+F# =not ok (correct is D+3semi=D+F)

Bogdan

[pjd]

@Kurt
Yes. For example: C+4semi=C+E =ok, D+4semi=D+F# =not ok (correct is D+3semi=D+F)

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan -- 

Please r(re)consider "major 3rd" vs. "minor 3rd". Major 3rd is 4 semi-tones, minor third is 3 semi-tones. I have to agree with Kurt.

-- pj

[ton37]

'Pitch' is actually 'Pitch Bend Range' and so valid only for joystick. It's the same as MENU->Menu2->Keyboard/Joystick->Joystick setting -except if Genos has something drastically different.

Bogdan

I know: It was purely intended to draw attention to the possibilities offered by the use of 'programming' the live knobs/sliders etc. It does offer many uses. Whether you want to use it or delve into it is of course your own choice.

[pjd]

Just so we don't slide into wrong direction... Jim (OP) was asking about shifting/transposing notes for RH voices.

I agree, although I should let Jim speak for himself. 

RIGHT1, RIGHT2, RIGHT3 and LEFT are so-called keyboard parts. Yamaha neglected to expose note shift for the keyboard parts. There may very well be undocumented Sy*** to control this. Yamaha calls this kind of Sy*** "Clavinova compliance".

This is a useful facility since one could set RIGHT1, RIGHT2 and RIGHT3 into a major triad, for example. Or set RIGHT1 and RIGHT2 to an instant, one finger power chord.

All the best -- pj

Dromeus posted some undocumented Sy***, but no note shift, alas: http://keyboards.dromeusik.de/en/sy***/keyboard-part/

[jimlaing]

Hi - as the OP I'll explain a bit more what I want to do.  What I want is simply to 'transpose' (in a similar way that the Transpose works on the whole keyboard), but for a specific part (or parts) that I choose.  I'm feeling 95% sure I did this on a Tyros!  At present, we can 'shift' L, R1, R2, R3 by octave (-2, -1, 0, +1, +2).  But I can't find a way to transpose a part or parts, by semitones.  I could have sworn that we used to be able to do 'transpose part' on the Tyros.

Example: If I want to take the Diapason voice (classical organ voice) and use it at and 8' and 4' and 2-2/3' (to make a simple organ combination), I put the Diapason voice in R1, R2 and R3.  I leave R1 alone, but I use the Settings to make R2 an octave higher (easy to do).  Then, I'd want to make R3 be "an-octave-and-a-fifth" higher than standard pitch.  That is, I'd have R3 be up one octave AND shifted by 7 semitones.  It would be like playing the Diapason so each note played sounds at 3 different pitches, like a "unified" pipe organ ... I'd experiment with different organ voices to maybe get some unusual/interesting combinations or 'mixtures'.

Another example: I want to play a "black-keys-only" glissando on a Harp voice, to get a "harp arpeggio" type of sound, as harp players often do.  But I want to play a pentatonic scale easily (achievable via playing a glass on only black notes).  But I want to transpose the Harp voice (maybe on R3 for example), up 6 semitones so that when I play an F# it sounds a 'C' note (etc.).  This way I could play all black keys on the Harp, and get a nice harp-sounding arpeggios in the key of C.  This would be easier to demonstrate than it is to write about! :-)

Jim

[ton37]

@Jimlainng, than the above mentioned solution to archieve that by using one of the the live functions could be an option, right?

[jimlaing]

It could be; will have to try it.  I ideally wanted to save whatever I had done (pitch-shift-wise) into a Registration.

-J

[ton37]

Indeed, that are Memory Registrations meant for. Pay attention to tick what you want to be stored in Memory Bank and/or use the freeze function to protect your settings 

PS. the link that @Wim quoted in his post above (#17) is also very informative!

[BogdanH]

Hi Bogdan -- 

Please r(re)consider "major 3rd" vs. "minor 3rd". Major 3rd is 4 semi-tones, minor third is 3 semi-tones. I have to agree with Kurt.

"Major 3rd is +4 semi-tones"... that's only a rule for first note for specific key -but that's not true for whole scale of particular key.
For example, if we wish to play major thirds in C-major scale, then it must look like this:
C+4semi=C+E
D+3semi=D+F
E+3semi=E+G
F+4semi=F+A
....
Take a look on video that I mentioned above, specifically at 10minutes.

Bogdan