Next Yamaha Arranger Keyboards

[overover]

Chris,
Good info. I didn't know the Genos' have a second chip. As I said above I would be willing to pay for that, maybe up to $3,200 USD for at least a high quality piano or two and still be half the price of a Genos2. That would move the SX900 successor a little more towards the Genos and further away from the 700, but it's all just wishful thinking at this point. The 900 is such a Classic instrument, but they should continue to improve it.

Rich

Hi Rich,

To be honest, I can't imagine that the SX900 successor will have two Tone Generator chips (like the Genos models). However, I see it as realistic to expand the internal NAND Flash memory from the current total of 2 GB (512 MB * 4) to 4 GB (1 GB * 4). With these additional 2 GB, the Preset wave memory and the Expansion memory could each be increased by 1 GB.


Best regards,
Chris

[Enildo]

hi Enildo,
Thank you for pointing me on post that you've made a while ago -I have read the whole thread carefully again 

So, you would upgrade to SX900/700 successor only if it would fulfill all these 13 conditions? I ask because I think, that you're mainly pointing out the things that you wish next keyboard would have.
Usually most of the wishes we have are not implemented in successor and still we buy it... or we don't.

For example: as far I can remember, not many wished for Genos1 successor to have better/more voices (consensus was that they're already pretty good), not many asked for LED's around the knobs, etc. Still, many decided to buy Genos2, even none of the wishes that were expressed (except audio interface), was fulfilled.
Of course it's to be expected, that successor will have some features that we didn't think about before -many times these give additional "push" to click on "buy" button.

Ok, let me answer my own question:
I will consider to buy SX900/700 successor only if it will have the same/similar keybed as Genos -otherwise I will definitely not buy it.
Things like a bit more expansion memory and some gimmicks are to be expected anyway. And so my final decision will depend on what else will be implemented that I find useful for me (especially in style creation area). Ok, I wish 50% of voices to be replaced with new/better ones, but here I'm probably asking for too much 

Greetings,
Bogdan

Hello Bogdan!

There are 13 wishes that I would like to see implemented, but if they are not met in their entirety, or just one or the other, I will still switch to the next model, because I intend to renew for the following models. I don't intend to spend more than 5 years on the same device and I know that current models always bring something new. So, to summarize your question, regardless of whether the next model comes with the 13 wishes, I will exchange it.

Enildo

[hans1966]

It would even be nice to have some SA2 woodwind voices inherited from the Genos in the next PSR-SXXX

But they are only my wishes

Meanwhile I enjoy what I have

greetings

Hans

[Keyboard Master]

It would even be nice to have some SA2 woodwind voices inherited from the Genos in the next PSR-SXXX

But they are only my wishes

Meanwhile I enjoy what I have

greetings

Hans

Definitely agree. I hope the sx700-900 successors get SA2 voices. Not sure about the sx600 successor but it be nice too.

[hans1966]

Hello Guys, another wish that I would like to see in the next SXXX model is (although I think it has already been said in another thread)

a power cable CA instead of an adapter.

I say this because recently there was a problem with my singer friend's SX600 keyboard and the jack that connects to the adapter came off.

I send images below

Hans

[attachment unavailable]

[Amwilburn]

That doesn't just come off. I've seen enough to know that's almost always caused by someone walking behind and tripping on the cable with enough force to send the keyboard flying (but instead, the pin snaps).

A lot of folks think "oh, it's just a little pin, I can just shove it back in", but it's usually hard soldered to the motherboard (this if for any brand, not just Yamaha).

And the reason they use these external power supplies, is it's *much* more convenient for people who travel. You don't realize how painful it is to bring your 120v equipment to a 220 or 240v venue, and instantly blow a fuse when you plug it in... or worse, melt the motherboard. Or even funnier (?), go to Japan, and their 100v output is enough to turn the keyboard on but not make any sound!

But it takes a *lot* of force to snap out that centre pin. In 47 years of playing keyboards, I've never done that; and all dozen cases of seen of that happening where kids running around and tripping on the power cable, or an unobservant adult who was in a rush.


As for S.Art 2, that's one of the defining things they did to separate the TOTLA from the mid range (after the disaster for them of making the T1 and PSR3000 the *same* sound library, with the only difference being 3 layers vs 2. So I don't forsee that changing anytime soon; but maybe if they merge the midlevel with the TOTLA? And as pjd said, the new pianos are a huge selling point on G2, they won't even give those to G1, nevermind PSR series.

And I agree with Chris overover; they will absolutely include a larger sw70 chip with the sx900 successor. But will it be 4Gb or will they do 2Gb +1Gb? I think that depends on the sx700 successor (which will most likely use the sx900 library; as the sx700 uses the s970 library, the s770 used an upgraded version of the s950 sound library, and the s750 used the same library as the s910, s710 used the s910 library etc, ad nauseum)


Mark

[hans1966]

That doesn't just come off. I've seen enough to know that's almost always caused by someone walking behind and tripping on the cable with enough force to send the keyboard flying (but instead, the pin snaps).

A lot of folks think "oh, it's just a little pin, I can just shove it back in", but it's usually hard soldered to the motherboard (this if for any brand, not just Yamaha).

And the reason they use these external power supplies, is it's *much* more convenient for people who travel. You don't realize how painful it is to bring your 120v equipment to a 220 or 240v venue, and instantly blow a fuse when you plug it in... or worse, melt the motherboard. Or even funnier (?), go to Japan, and their 100v output is enough to turn the keyboard on but not make any sound!

But it takes a *lot* of force to snap out that centre pin. In 47 years of playing keyboards, I've never done that; and all dozen cases of seen of that happening where kids running around and tripping on the power cable, or an unobservant adult who was in a rush.


As for S.Art 2, that's one of the defining things they did to separate the TOTLA from the mid range (after the disaster for them of making the T1 and PSR3000 the *same* sound library, with the only difference being 3 layers vs 2. So I don't forsee that changing anytime soon; but maybe if they merge the midlevel with the TOTLA? And as pjd said, the new pianos are a huge selling point on G2, they won't even give those to G1, nevermind PSR series.

And I agree with Chris overover; they will absolutely include a larger sw70 chip with the sx900 successor. But will it be 4Gb or will they do 2Gb +1Gb? I think that depends on the sx700 successor (which will most likely use the sx900 library; as the sx700 uses the s970 library, the s770 used an upgraded version of the s950 sound library, and the s750 used the same library as the s910, s710 used the s910 library etc, ad nauseum)


Mark

Hi Mark, I appreciate your response, but I disagree.

Regarding your answer about the adapter, I have to tell you that this happened in a church, just when the mass ended, I was there and I watched when my companion cautiously removed the adapter from the keyboard, and we realized that the internal jack of the sx600 had stayed in the adapter.

By the way, this seems quite unusual to me for a keyboard that has only been working for 8 months.
So I took it to Yamaha technical service.

As for what other companies use it, I know what they are.

but there are also others that have arranger keyboards that work with a power cable and are safer when playing live.

greetings

Hans

[BogdanH]

I think that "broken pin" in DC socket is something that can just happen (yes I know, it shouldn't) and is not necessary always owners fault. To ensure good "+" contact of center pin, the whole connector is pushed with certain force on center pin from side by "-" spring contact. And if center pin is not hard pressed perfectly (is not soldered), then it can happen it becomes loose over the time or it snaps.

About why aren't power supplies built inside.. I've read a while ago that the main reason is saving costs. At first sight it looks that delivering separate power supply (cables+housing) is more expensive than simply put a naked transformer and AC/DC converter into keyboard -which probably is. But these power bricks are such a mass product nowadays, that the difference in price is negligible... compared to certification costs.
The thing is, electrical devices need to conform certain safety, environment, etc. standards and that's checked by national institutes/labs in import country -and that costs a lot of money (to get approval). And here it comes: for devices that are connected directly into main electrical socket (considered as life hazard), the certification process is much more expensive. Now, if keyboard is not connected directly into wall socket, then this cost can be avoided and so we can have five different keyboards certified at lower costs and only one power brick that needs expensive certification.

Now you know why Genos is so expensive 

Bogdan

[hans1966]

Thanks Bogdanh for your response and expanding on Mark's response in detail.

Now I have it clearer

The Yamaha technical service in my country determined a possible manufacturing defect, since this does not usually happen, and is in charge of fixing it.

greetings

Hans

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark, I appreciate your response, but I disagree.

Regarding your answer about the adapter, I have to tell you that this happened in a church, just when the mass ended, I was there and I watched when my companion cautiously removed the adapter from the keyboard, and we realized that the internal jack of the sx600 had stayed in the adapter.

By the way, this seems quite unusual to me for a keyboard that has only been working for 8 months.
So I took it to Yamaha technical service.

As for what other companies use it, I know what they are.

but there are also others that have arranger keyboards that work with a power cable and are safer when playing live.

greetings

Hans

I stand corrected, then... I've never seen it happen in 47 years, but if it happened to you *that* gently? I'd definitely ask for a warranty repair! (The cases I saw were all not under warranty, as it was obvious someone had tripped on the cable; the casing usually had impact damage as well)

And I'm very sorry that happened to you; that is unacceptable!

Mark

[hans1966]

Hello Mark, thank you very much again for your response.

I agree with you that this is unacceptable, since I had the SX900 for four years, and never had problems with the power adapter, and now I have an SX600 just like my partner, and so far everything is going very well.

I'm going to find out about the warranty from my Yamaha dealer to see what happens.

greetings

Hans

[pjd]

But there are also others that have arranger keyboards that work with a power cable and are safer when playing live.

Hope you get this sorted, Hans!

The darned power cord is one of my biggest fears when gigging the MODX. (Same adapter design.) The choir always traipse through the instrumentalists instead of going ten feet around the piano. Grrr...

Take care -- pj

[hans1966]

Today I took the keyboard for warranty repair, the technician already sent the photos of the damage, and requested the replacement from the corresponding department.

The warranty process takes 15 business days, and depends on the response of
Whether Yamaha approves it or not.

hahaha it's true PJ.
The backup singers are a total disaster, especially when there are a lot of people, they corner you.

greetings

Hans

[DJIncendration]

Hi, Alex here. I'd like to respond to a lot of the discussedion here.
I really hope Genos3 has an 88-key option, but I doubt it since they stuk with having only the 76-key version for Genos 1 and 2. There will definitely be some added and some modified voices and styles. I don't really use the styles all that much, but I'm sure others like having lots of styles.
SX910 will probably be based on the Genos1, with a 61-key keyboard as always.
It's hard to know what the SX950 will be based on, as it would likely be many, many years from now.
The SX series doesn't necessarily have to stay at 61 keys, as shown by the Tyros line. The Tyros 1-4 had 61 keys with no other option, while the T5 added a 76-key version. I am happy with the built in speakers of the SX900.
I also think the new SX series will be released in 2025, similar to the SX900/700.
Surely it will come with at least some of the G2 features, not sure which ones exactly.
To answer Bogdan's question, I feel like my next keyboard needs a built-in USB audio interface, like the Genos2. If the next SX900 doesn't have that, I will not buy it. I hope we get some of the new G2 voices in addition to the G1 voices, but if not, that's fine, I guess.
I think there's nothing Yamaha needs to learn after the G2. Buyers have a lot of information they can read about before making decisions on whether to purchase the G2, even based on fact. They were selling a keyboard with FM capabilities, a built-in USB audio interface, Revelation reverb, and more voices and styles. There was no secrecy. It's ok that it's another plastic keyboard... I don't need more than that.
There was just enough hype for what we got, with Ambient Drums, style dynamics, new styles and FM capabilities. I agree about it taking FAR too long to release, but the new technology is really cool.
You can still learn what you'll get; the specs, videos and data list have been available for a while now.
I think my SX900 is not perfect, as it has many legacy voices in the main categories, like SuitcaseSoft, MIDIGrand, Piano&Orchestra, PedalSteelGuitar (8 36 4), JazzVibes, and many more. In addition, Voice Guide isn't the best (even on G2.)

For the keybed, I'd say the quality is not bad. There are reasons for me to jump to the next SX900, if I don't have enough money for Genos2 by that time: better voices, better accessibility with Voice Guide (hopefully), a built-in USB audio interface, etc.
In terms of the CFX sound, I already have a better CFX than Genos2, Production Voices 300 Grand. While it would be nice to have a built-in CFX sound that's better than the current SX pianos, that isn't really necessary for me anymore.
Since the G2 has 3GB of expansion memory, I doubt that the SX replacements will have that much. Maybe closer to 2GB would be more reasonable.
Alex

[BogdanH]

hi Alex,

...
To answer Bogdan's question, I feel like my next keyboard needs a built-in USB audio interface, like the Genos2. If the next SX900 doesn't have that, I will not buy it.
...

Well, if that's the only condition, then it's time for you to start saving money for SX900 successor 
I believe that audio interface has become a standard nowadays and shouldn't even be considered as a feature -it would be something special, if it would be multi-channel, though. On the other hand, for a serious music production an external multi-channel interface is needed anyway.

Bogdan

[pjd]

I really hope Genos3 has an 88-key option, ...

In terms of the CFX sound, I already have a better CFX than Genos2, Production Voices 300 Grand. While it would be nice to have a built-in CFX sound that's better than the current SX pianos, that isn't really necessary for me anymore.

Thanks for sharing your ideas, Alex.

I wonder how Yamaha manage their different product lines. The piano line offers 88-keys and almost arranger features in some models. If a player is willing to forego certain features like multi-pads, they can find an 88 with better CFX (or Bösendorfer! VRM!) at a reasonable price. The downside -- the nice piano-action keybed adds a lot of weight.

So, would Yamaha make an arranger that infringes on the piano models like P-S500? The P-S500 has roughly the same sound set as the sx700 and costs only $1,600 USD.

All the best -- pj

[mikf]

I see little point in an 88 key board, unless it has piano quality action, and that adds both weight and cost. So I really doubt we will see Yamaha offer that in the psr range, or even Genos.

[richkeys]

Alex,
SX900 is certainly next up for an update. Even though it was launched in 2019 my guess also is the update happens in 2025, because it's still a very modern instrument with great sounds and an identical user interface to Genos. It's good that you found a VST solution for the piano. I personally find the whole VST connection thing awkward and kind of ruins the spontaneity of sitting down and just playing.

I think pj and overover's comments earlier in this thread are the best summaries to date for what Yamaha probably will do. I copied excerpts of their comments below. I personally would consider buying the Genos2 rather than wait for unlikely Genos2 features incorporated in the next SX900.

pj:
Yamaha's typical development strategy is to trickle down sound sets: e.g., Genos -> SX900 -> SX700

If Yamaha is feeling generous, they might give the SX900 the Genos1 CFX and C7. Maybe. The higher-quality Genos2 CFX is a big differentiator for that product.

overover:
In order to integrate additional memory-intensive voices such as high-quality pianos and/or increasing the Expansion wave memory, the internal wave memory would probably have to be significantly expanded in an SX900 successor. A second Tone Generator chip (SWP70) may even need to be added (as with G1 and G2) because as far as I know, a single SWP70 Tone Generator chip can only manage a maximum of 4 GB of NAND Flash memory.

Here is a comparison of the internal wave memory (NAND Flash) used for the sample data of Preset Voices and Expansion Voices:

SX700:    SWP70 * 1, total 1 GB NAND Flash
SX900:    SWP70 * 1, total 2 GB NAND Flash
Genos1:   SWP70 * 2, total 6 GB NAND Flash
Genos2:   SWP70 * 2, total 8 GB NAND Flash

To be honest, I can't imagine that the SX900 successor will have two Tone Generator chips (like the Genos models). However, I see it as realistic to expand the internal NAND Flash memory from the current total of 2 GB (512 MB * 4) to 4 GB (1 GB * 4). With these additional 2 GB, the Preset wave memory and the Expansion memory could each be increased by 1 GB.

[PSR-USR-IND]

YAMAHA should consider to include some S.Art2! Voices in future PSR top model.

[Amwilburn]

YAMAHA should consider to include some S.Art2! Voices in future PSR top model.

It's been nearly 16 years since the T3 introduced S.Art2 voices, and Yamaha decided not to include any S.Art2 voices into the PSR line to avoid diluting the reasons for owning the TOTLA; Perhaps if a future TOTLA introduces something that's much more important than S.Art 2, then they might consider it then?

Mark

[pjd]

Weirdly, some form of Articulation Element Modeling (also known as Super Articulation 2) was included in the NSX-1, the chip embedded in the NSX-39 Pocket MIKU. Technically, there is some conceptual (mathematical, algorithmic) connection to Vocaloid.

The SA2 Female Vocals expansion pack played with this idea in the opposite direction -- bringing Vocaloid-like synthesis to SA2. Like many technologies, Yamaha experimented, tried it out and then abandoned.

Technically, SA2 synthesis is very much possible in the existing hardware. The trick is convincing Yamaha marketing otherwise. Plus, there are front panel controls, further software integration costs to consider.

I agree with Mark. I don't think Yamaha will give up on this top-of-the-line differentiator.

Always willing to be shocked and surprised -- pj

[Luis Carlos GM]

Hi mark,
Unless I could buy THE PSR-A5000, Maybe I will wait untill the next PSR-A keyboard comes out. I was searching for that keyboard in Amazon in my region (Americas/Panama) but they say it's still out of stock. I've posted on that wishlist topic about that fUTure PSR-A model (even made an ideascale) about complete accessibility for blind players/people. And also I need a new keyboard since my current PSR-A3000 is getting some damage, E.G. Some buttons don't work.
The suggestions are amazing to say the least.

[andyg]

There are valid commercial reasons why the smaller (even up to the SX) keyboards have adaptors.

If you make something mains powered it has be certified for each of the countries/regions it's exported to. (That's one reason we don't have Stagea and D-Deck in Europe) It means a separate production line for each country/region to cope with various voltages and mains frequencies and any other region-specific requirements (that's the second, and main, reason). If you make a keyboard run on 12 or 16 volts via an adaptor, you can export that product worldwide with no regional changes. Only the adaptor is different for the various countries/regions and only that adaptor needs to be certified.

There's enough margin on the Genos to cover the costs involved.

As for SA2 voices, it would be nice, but I think that they'll want to keep that Genos-only, to make a clear differentiation between the two lines, same as they do with CVP and arranger keyboards.

[Amwilburn]

Hi mark,
Unless I could buy THE PSR-A5000, Maybe I will wait untill the next PSR-A keyboard comes out. I was searching for that keyboard in Amazon in my region (Americas/Panama) but they say it's still out of stock. I've posted on that wishlist topic about that fUTure PSR-A model (even made an ideascale) about complete accessibility for blind players/people. And also I need a new keyboard since my current PSR-A3000 is getting some damage, E.G. Some buttons don't work.
The suggestions are amazing to say the least.

I guess it depends where you are; we received stock in 2021 when it first launched, and we did sell out. But after that first year, we've had no trouble getting stock. But I'm in Canada, and we have a very large contingent of arranger players from the Middle East, which is the target market for the A5000

Mark

[Luis Carlos GM]

Great that now they have stock in there! I went to the US 3 or so months ago to a music store. Well, 2 in total, as I went to the store that Yamaha provides me for dealers during thanksgiving and obviously it was closed! Went to the second and I did test a standard equivalent of the A5000, the PSR-SX 700 I believe. It sounded amazing. I was browsing the layout of the keyboard and I liked it. Maybe
1: Or I contact Yamaha USA directly if there could be any delivery from USA to Panama or
2: Wait untill we organize another travel to the US to the same previous dealer that was closed to see. I also noticed that not only the PSR-A5000 wasn't there on the second store, but also the Genos 2. Maybe super, super early at that time?

[Denn]

Always on the want, never satisfied. I can remember these postings from way back when PSR S900 and Tyros 1 hit the market. I have written:-
If you can ride a bike then you could play a piano. If you can master a Tyros4 you could fly a jumbo jet.

Kind regards, Denn.

[mikf]

I learned to ride a bike at 7 years old, in about 1 hour and a couple of grazed knees, and bruised elbows. Learning to play piano took many, many years. About 99% of the population can ride a bike, what %  would you listen to playing piano.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Maybe 5 or 6% can *actually* play. Most stats put piano owners as 10-12% of the population, but that's including a *lot* of students, a lot of whom you wouldn't want to listen to playing.