Genos 2 Style Creator

[TiasDad]

Has there been any improvement in this department over the Genos 1/Sx series please, or is it still the same awkward to use platform?

[overover]

Hi Gary,

The Style Creator obviously hasn't changed much on Genos2. For example, you can now have a different time signature for each style section, and on the "Rec Channel" page there are now controls for the new "Ambience" parameter of the "Rhythm 1/2" parts. Otherwise the changes appear to be only marginal.


By the way, I removed your other, identical thread on this topic from the "Midi Song to Style Application" board, because one thread per topic is sufficient.


Best regards,
Chris

[Sokratis1974]

I Agree with Chris. I carefully read the Genos 2 manual and it was almost like watching Genos1's Style Creator. The most significant change that was made is the possibility of a different Time Signature in each Variation. This is extremely important for countries where their music is particularly demanding in this regard since a single song can have different Time Signatures involved. Countries like mine (Greece) and many other Balkan countries, Turkey, Arab countries, etc. welcome this feature which has been missing for years from Yamaha and for the first time we encountered it in Yamaha's Arranger on the PSR A5000 3 years ago. Unfortunately, however, there are too many things that should be done in the Style Creator in order for it to be a complete thing that Korg has achieved first for many years and Ketron is following. Let me clarify here that I'm not complaining about it because I know Yamaha has chosen this way but it's a shame because all this is preventing me from buying the Genos 2 because I know I'll still have problems that won't let me to create things for the needs me exactly as I would like.

[valimaties]

...This is extremely important for countries where their music is particularly demanding in this regard since a single song can have different Time Signatures involved. Countries like mine (Greece) and many other Balkan countries, Turkey, Arab countries, etc. welcome this feature which has been missing for years from Yamaha and for the first time we encountered it in Yamaha's Arranger on the PSR A5000 3 years ago. Unfortunately, however, there are too many things that should be done in the Style Creator in order for it to be a complete thing that Korg has achieved first for many years and Ketron is following. Let me clarify here that I'm not complaining about it because I know Yamaha has chosen this way but it's a shame because all this is preventing me from buying the Genos 2 because I know I'll still have problems that won't let me to create things for the needs me exactly as I would like.

Hi Sokratis,
Totaly agree with you! 

Best regards,
Vali

[DerekA]

I'll start by saying I am no expert in style making, at best I have made some simple styles.

The basic process seems fairly straightforward - record the notes that you want in each part.

It's a genuine question - what exactly is it that people want when they say they want significant improvements in the style creator?

[BogdanH]

...The most significant change that was made is the possibility of a different Time Signature in each Variation...

I absolutely agree. And let me add...
This feature has nothing to do with keyboard hardware capability; because every keyboard can obviously already play different time signatures. Those who ever created a custom style (and are familiar with style midi structure) know, that this is pure software solution. That is, all previous (compatible) keyboards could also use different time signature in each variation, if Yamaha would provide firmware update -but knowing Yamaha, that probably wont happen.

...what exactly is it that people want when they say they want significant improvements in the style creator?

Well, Time Signature per variation is such an example of improvement (which should actually exist since beginning).
I think we can put our wishes about StyleCreator in two categories: first is adding new possibilities (like Time Signature) and second is making style creation easier/faster. For example... it's quite annoying that we need to exit Style Creator each time we wish to check the result in different chords.
For me personally, Style Creator is not bad actually... I mean, so far I could make everything I needed (within given possibilities) -but sometimes, only if tricks are used which are not described in manual 

Bogdan

[valimaties]

I'll start by saying I am no expert in style making, at best I have made some simple styles.

The basic process seems fairly straightforward - record the notes that you want in each part.

It's a genuine question - what exactly is it that people want when they say they want significant improvements in the style creator?

Derek, do you write guitar strumming with Guitar NTR in style? What do you hear when you wrote those notes?  It's hilarious to hear the exactly keys played (D,E,F,G,A,B), come on Yamaha  When you wrote guitar in Style creator you MUST hear exactly the strings of the guitar, not our keyboard keys.
Also, they could implement a Style Player mode in style creator, because right now you must exit the style to hear how the style sounds when you change the chords. Right now when no tracks is in record mode when you play keys you will hear Right voices. They could make the expression of right voices to be 0 and any chord played to be able to change it when playing the style in Style Creator. (like other brands have). Maybe you will say what is wrong to exit the style creator and play the style? I will say that this could be a problem if you don't save the style before exiting, because if you press a registration button by mistake any changes made to your style which was not saved will be lost. And this could happening, I tell you. It's very unpleasant to exit to hear how style works in realtime. And they are more advanced features that missing in event edit which I will not write right now 

Regards,
Vali

[valimaties]

Bogdan, the same issue we post in the same time LOL

I could add the hidden channels (1-8) which could add possibility to control chord variation for each section. You can add for example a bass track which plays something else on some not-basic chords, like for example on Cm7(9) the bass track to play some other pattern like on minor or Major chords. This is usually made by live players, so we can make style sounds more like a live band.
We know that with Style Magic YA right now these things could be made, but why in a software when they could be made directly in the keyboard?

Regards,
Vali

[BogdanH]

hi Vali,
Hahaha.. I guess that puts "exit Style Creator to hear the result" on the top of the list of the most annoying things. 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[TiasDad]

Thank you guys, it's mainly small improvements I would have liked to see like the relaxing of the limits on the length of intro/fill in/break sections.
If I'm writing a song specific style, I only need one intro, the other two I will set up for solo sections within the song but the current limits reduce the available flexibility.

Hi Gary,
By the way, I removed your other, identical thread on this topic from the "Midi Song to Style Application" board, because one thread per topic is sufficient.

Thanks Chris, so did I once I realized I posted it in the wrong place, lol.

[BogdanH]

..it's mainly small improvements I would have liked to see like the relaxing of the limits on the length of intro/fill in/break sections...

So far I didn't see limitations in Intro as long it's used as intro (I try to keep the length of intros reasonably).
But I agree on Fill-In being limited (fixed to one bar length), which I have mentioned here. And being at Fill-In: there should be an option to create a "real" half bar fill-in. As it is now, it's only simulated with pedal (which works, but we know how precious pedals are for other important things).

Bogdan

[Sokratis1974]

So, I would like (since you asked me) to say what are the most important problems that I think exist in the Style Creator, but also a few more problems (beyond the Style Creator) that I think need improvement.

1) We cannot create either on-board or through a computer (without the need for any third-party software) Major, Minor, 7, 7m etc. neither in Intro, Ending nor in Variations. This is done both in Korg and Ketron in a very easy way either onboard or on a computer without the need for third party software. In the musical culture of my country, this element is necessary many times.

2) The style creator does not accept the sustain pedal command. This is really incomprehensible and I honestly cannot understand the reason for which Yamaha insists on this limitation. The only way there is is through a computer and after first writing down whatever we want, in which we will have recorded the sustain command, we will then have to convert this command into length notes. A hopelessly tiring situation.

3) It is not possible to have a different bpm tempo in each variation. There are too many cases in which we need something like this.


4) The Drum Mixer should not be inside the Style creator but outside for direct access as it exists in Korg and Ketron, as well as having the possibility of different mixing of the drum parts in each variation. It would also be good if there was a separate EQ for each drum instrument part (Kick, Snare, etc.) as there is in Korg (Ketron does not have this), but Ketron provides something else and that is the possibility of having a completely different mix of Drums in every variation directly from the Drum Mixer something that conversely does not exist in Korg.

5) While we can have a different mix in each variation, this is only done through the Style Creator. In my opinion, this is also problematic because we don't have the freedom to play in parallel so that we can see how the overall style responds to each variation. There is also another problem here and this is that when we have a style with a different mix, then when we are outside the style creator and we intervene in any change, for example in the volume of a channel, then the balance that we have made in the rest of the style is broken.

6) Audio Phraser. Unfortunately, it still remains a useless software today since Yamaha did not fix it when it was supposed to work properly, with the result that even today in user audio styles the Fill, Break do not work properly because they are not activated in time. Of course, a different time signature is not supported here either, but even worse, almost no signature value beyond 4/4 plays well

7) Onboard sample edit as in every other Arranger. The only choice we have is YEM. But imagine that you have created a package where there is even one sample error. To fix it is really a nightmare. I've experienced it many times.

8 Insert FX. This is really tragic in that the same problem with Genos 1 still exists where no one can process any FX beyond the first of the chain. I think this should at least have been fixed since Genos 1, because what's the point of having 18 FX inserts but not being able to edit them?

EDIT: The Fill issue you mentioned above is also a problem and I forgot to mention it. There is no possibility of more than one bar in each fill/break. Also, many times when we press fill and hastily select a different variation, the fill stops playing and switches to the variation before it has completed the cycle of the fill sequence. The right thing here is when after we have pressed fill and then the switch of a different variation, it completes the fill and then switches to the variation. This is how it happens in all arrangers of all companies. This is something that I find very annoying in a live. I have tried to find if there is any setting that can change this but I have not found anything.

There are many more, but I would not like to continue because I will surely bore you.
And to be clear again: I'm not complaining because I know what the situation is, so I simply choose not to buy it. I have reported all of this (by me and by others) to Yamaha a long time ago, who unfortunately have done absolutely nothing to fix it.
However, those who bought Genos 2 and are fine with it, that is, it can cover their needs, I am sure they will be very happy because it is, after all, a very good instrument with a very good and warm sound. Unfortunately, this is not enough for people like me.

[BogdanH]

Hi Sokratis,
No, mentioning these things is not boring at all!  It's important that we are reminded on current limitations and being aware that competition maybe doesn't suffer them. Because we must strive to be informed before making decision.

Let me add something you probably already know:

...
3) It is not possible to have a different bpm tempo in each variation. There are too many cases in which we need something like this.
...

Actually we can have different tempo in each variation (I tried that) -the problem is, we can't set that in Style Creator. Even worse: if we set tempo for each variation by using external software (which is the only way) and we later modify & save style in Style Creator, then all tempo settings (for variations) are automatically deleted -what a bummer 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Sokratis1974]

Hi Sokratis,
No, mentioning these things is not boring at all!  It's important that we are reminded on current limitations and being aware that competition maybe doesn't suffer them. Because we must strive to be informed before making decision.

Let me add something you probably already know:Actually we can have different tempo in each variation (I tried that) -the problem is, we can't set that in Style Creator. Even worse: if we set tempo for each variation by using external software (which is the only way) and we later modify & save style in Style Creator, then all tempo settings (for variations) are automatically deleted -what a bummer 

Greetings,
Bogdan

Hello Bogdan. Thank you very much! Consequently, it does not work properly in this matter either.

[Lee Batchelor]

Great thread! One of the things on which I was basing my switch to Genos 2 was, a better Style Creator.

I have tried to use the onboard software to modify a style. For basic modifications, it's fine, although a painfully slow process of button pushing. For major changes, it's one of the most convoluted and awkward pieces of software I have ever used. Before buying my first arranger, I created theater background scores with a Korg M1 keyboard and a Roland Sound Canvas (1990). I used DOS driven software. To modify the scores, I had to edit each note and it's numerical velocity and duration, just like we must do on the Genos 33 years later! Do you see where I'm going with this? To be fair, it would be ridiculous to put DAW software inside the Genos. But why not supply it for use outside the Genos? They made a parallel move with the USB Storage Mode. Why not the Style Creator?

For the $5,300+ it would have cost me to upgrade to Genos 2, it would have been great if Yamaha supplied an external Style Creator for a PC or Mac. They failed to do this. The onboard Style Creator is a severe bottleneck to creativity and has too many limitations. Yamaha's old school thinking on this is very sad, especially when the other guys did it. It's as though they had a manager meeting on the Genos 2 and asked, "What about the Style Creator? Anything we need to add?" Answer, "Yes, we need to make different time signatures possible for users and...." Manager interrupts, "Okay, do it. Now, on to our next topic."

Hence, my decision was to keep my Genos 1. Genos 2 has some modest improvements but in too many ways shows that Yamaha may be sitting on their laurels. Makes me wonder if the thousands of paragraphs of wishes from the users on this site have fallen on deaf ears, all in the interests of even bigger profits. They can't blame this one on Covid!

[pjd]

Hi Lee --

I'm a little perplexed by your request.

Yamaha has supplied the new MIDI Song to Style program for PC and Mac. Style files are Standard MIDI Files in disguise (just change the file extension .MIDX and you're good). I believe folks have already been able to read existing styles into the new program. [Please correct me if I'm wrong.]

For my own sake, I may adopt a process where I create the basic MIDI file/style notes and junk, then pull that into the new MIDI file to Style program, adjust the CASM settings, and spit the whole thing out as a new Yamaha-approved Style file.

Now, I agree with you, it would be nice to have the MIDI-level editing integrated with the rest of the Style generating functionality. In my case, I plan to use two tools and ping-ponging between them likely will get old.

Just a random thought -- pj

Gotta spend more time playing, doing, than social media posts... 

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, PJ.

I had forgotten about the recent gift from Yamaha. I must try that out! I'm just getting over Covid but should be back on my pins in a few days. That will be my first activity. Thanks for the head up.

[rattley]

Now that I have a Ketron EventX I can see some different approaches to style creation and editing. On the EventX I can edit styles and hear my changes without having to leave the style creator. I like that. I haven't received my Genos 2 yet to experience any differences in the Genos 2 style creator. I know I have found Genos 1 style creator cumbersome. So much repetition........so much repetition.........so much repetition.  You get the picture!   Whatever Genos 2 brings it will be most welcome. I've already have to much on my musical plate. Variety IS the spice of life!!  -charley

Please don't think I'm complaining. I am not. I can remember the early 80s when MIDI came out. It was such a mystery to me in the beginning. It didn't take long for me to embrace it but the interfaces (or lack of) made it a real pain in the keister!  Punch-in step recording, data entry via floppy and cassette, NOTHING was easy or fast. But if you wanted to make music this "new way" you had to learn these exhaustive time consuming data entry methods.  We live in a fast world now. It's instant gratification or nothing for some. Nobody wants to wait for anything anymore.  If I could invent an arranger that could do EVERYTHING at the push of 1 button I could be a billionaire!!!   -charley

[TiasDad]

So far I didn't see limitations in Intro as long it's used as intro (I try to keep the length of intros reasonably).
Bogdan

Thanks Bogdan
In the new midi to style, try setting Intro 1 to more than 4 beats
This is why it's normally just a click beat, it's useless for anything more.

There are other adjustments which would have been nice like the ability to create in any key, major or minor or even better, a prompt of some kind to lead the creator to the correct scales in the keys used. (This is a big plus in grooveboxes but then, most groovebox users don't play instruments or have a background knowledge of music theory)

[BogdanH]

hi TiasDad,
Maybe I don't understand where the problem with Intro1 is in MidiToStyle, but I just tried making 10 (ten) bars long Intro1 and it works.

As is to be expected, there will be wishes about how to improve MidiToStyle... But to be honest, although I probably won't use MidiToStyle much, I'm quite impressed with it's capabilities.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[gabrielschuck]

Bogdan, the same issue we post in the same time LOL

I could add the hidden channels (1-8) which could add possibility to control chord variation for each section. You can add for example a bass track which plays something else on some not-basic chords, like for example on Cm7(9) the bass track to play some other pattern like on minor or Major chords. This is usually made by live players, so we can make style sounds more like a live band.
We know that with Style Magic YA right now these things could be made, but why in a software when they could be made directly in the keyboard?

Regards,
Vali

There's something that I can't understand and that I can't accept, Vali. 😢
Especially in my case, this situation bothers me because software that allows me to make these adjustments (like style magic) is not accessible for use with screen readers, since I am blind. And I'm also not going to buy the software only to not be able to use it in the end.
It seems that Yamaha doesn't really want to make these things so important about creating styles for the general public on their keyboards, and so it continues to be something that very few people are able to do in their ecosystem.
When you try to learn how to use the style creator without being able to look at the screen and discover that it is very limited, the only thing I can do is get angry or, at best, be content with it.
Regards,
Gabriel

[gabrielschuck]

I absolutely agree. And let me add...
This feature has nothing to do with keyboard hardware capability; because every keyboard can obviously already play different time signatures. Those who ever created a custom style (and are familiar with style midi structure) know, that this is pure software solution. That is, all previous (compatible) keyboards could also use different time signature in each variation, if Yamaha would provide firmware update -but knowing Yamaha, that probably wont happen.
Well, Time Signature per variation is such an example of improvement (which should actually exist since beginning).
I think we can put our wishes about StyleCreator in two categories: first is adding new possibilities (like Time Signature) and second is making style creation easier/faster. For example... it's quite annoying that we need to exit Style Creator each time we wish to check the result in different chords.
For me personally, Style Creator is not bad actually... I mean, so far I could make everything I needed (within given possibilities) -but sometimes, only if tricks are used which are not described in manual 

Bogdan

Certainly.
A friend of mine a few days ago commented that in the older models, it was even worse. There was no way to change the time signature; it was necessary to create a style based on a pre-existing rhythm with that time signature.
For instance, if you wanted to create a style with a 3/4 time signature, you had to start with a keyboard rhythm that had that time signature. I started experimenting with this on my first arranger keyboard that had this feature (PSR-S710). Even on keyboards like the S910 and Tyros5, to create a style in 6/8, for example, I still have to do this, as it's not like on the newer keyboards such as the SX600.
Someone could ask me: But why create in 6/8 when in the Style creator, you can switch to 3/4?
The answer is simple: Because in 3/4, you only have one measure for fills and the break. In 6/8, I have two.

Best regards,
Gabriel

[gabrielschuck]

hi Vali,
Hahaha.. I guess that puts "exit Style Creator to hear the result" on the top of the list of the most annoying things. 

Greetings,
Bogdan

I suffer a lot from this too.
In my case, as the list of chords in the parameters tab is quite extensive, this is even more difficult.
I always work with what I know will give me the results I need, but really, it's tedious.

[gabrielschuck]

5) While we can have a different mix in each variation, this is only done through the Style Creator. In my opinion, this is also problematic because we don't have the freedom to play in parallel so that we can see how the overall style responds to each variation. There is also another problem here and this is that when we have a style with a different mix, then when we are outside the style creator and we intervene in any change, for example in the volume of a channel, then the balance that we have made in the rest of the style is broken.

Sokratis, I work around this issue in the following way:
During the creation of my styles, as I record different parts (bass, guitar, strings, etc.), I do the overall mixing of the style outside of the Style Creator.
When the rhythm is nearly ready and I need a different mix for a specific variation, for example, emphasizing a drum piece more, that's when I enter the mixing console within the Style Creator.
Only do this when you are satisfied with the overall style mix.
Leave this for the very end, and you won't encounter this problem again. On the contrary, you might even get used to it.
I hope this helps.
Gabriel

[gabrielschuck]

Guys, I got carried away with this topic, but I promise this is my last post for today. 🤣

One thing that I don't know has improved in these new keyboards is the creation of Styles using the keyboard's custom voices, or even those we created with YEM. Quite limited in that sense.
For example, as far as I know, in a voice that I configure to change the cut-off filter when I change the modulator, within the style creator it doesn't work, as if I hadn't made this modification.
Regards,
Gabriel

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I cannot understand why everyone is moaning.
The external Style Creator is FAB!! The internal one is a bit of a fiddle.
I have not got one complaint yet that i cannot get over. making music in midi and converting to wave and mix. That should be it.
If you want samples , then Sample Robot is first choice.
if you want more fun , then VST.
Sky is the limit.
How many of us will get a number 1 hit in our lifetime???
Just have fun.You have had your 15 minutes!!!

If you are swapping a Genos 1 over for a 2 then you have still a bargain.
Remember is is 6 years old.

[gabrielschuck]

Complaining is a duty. We are investing money in the purchase of equipment, and a top-notch keyboard is not to be left out. There are certain things that cannot be accepted as they come.

I want an instrument that excels in both aspects, as an arranger and as a synthesizer.
I want an instrument with a decent sample player.
I want a keyboard with a less limited style creator.
I want to play with a professional band, even if they are not physically there.
For the vast majority, this may seem exaggerated, but for me, it matters a lot. And it makes a huge difference.

Once, a long time ago, I saw someone on a Brazilian keyboard forum criticizing Yamaha for their insistence on using DSPs. He claimed that sound editing on Yamaha keyboards was "child's play." When I read that, I was ready to punch him until he couldn't take it anymore, but that wasn't possible.
Gradually, I was able to afford a better keyboard, to venture into the idea of playing with sampled .voices.. And I discovered that what he had written many years ago still makes sense.
Since then, and in terms of creative possibilities (style programming, sound editing, etc.), what has changed significantly at Yamaha?
Drum setup? Korg keyboards had that for years, including the ability to save the same configuration for use with other styles.
Possibility of adding chord variations? It is still not possible in the style creator, and other brands already allow this.
In other words, it's sad to see a professional musician, including myself, using the arranger of a brand that still lags behind in certain aspects compared to other brands.
The fun ends here. 🤣🤣🤣

Regards,
Gabriel

[BogdanH]

hi Gabriel,

...
When you try to learn how to use the style creator without being able to look at the screen and discover that it is very limited, the only thing I can do is get angry or, at best, be content with it.

I can't even imagine how you manage that -my compliments to you!

Btw. I didn't know that "trick" about getting two measures for fill-in. Thank you for sharing... and keep posting 

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent points, Gabriel.

I believe that over the years, the PSR, Tyros, and now Genos series have evolved very well, however, even with the addition of excellent voices these arrangers are still aimed at the home players - not the pros.

I play mostly on stage. Yamaha has given us excellent sounds but held back on the items a pro player needs, likely so they don't shoot themselves in the foot on Montage sales. This topic has been beaten to death on this forum but the bottom line is, for the pro player, Genos "feeds our battle but starves our victory." Sounds a bit harsh but when many of the requested and essential features professionals need are denied by Yamaha but have appeared on other models for years, it tells you Yamaha wants the home player to sound like a pro (which is a great thing) but the pro player should just pretend to be a home player on stage.

Note I mean no disrespect to those who simply enjoy parking the Genos for years of enjoyment in the living room. After years of stage playing, I get the feeling you're the smart ones !

[gabrielschuck]

hi Gabriel,I can't even imagine how you manage that -my compliments to you!

Btw. I didn't know that "trick" about getting two measures for fill-in. Thank you for sharing... and keep posting 

Bogdan

You're very welcome, my friend! ☺
I like to explore a lot to see what I can do within the imposed limitations.

Regarding the tip I shared, it happened to me.
I wanted to create a waltz style that needed a two-bar fill, but in keyboards prior to the SX600, it's not possible to set the time signature to 6/8 in the style creator. So, I remembered that Yamaha's own some rhythms use the 6/8 time signature. Since it's a compound meter, a two-bar fill is possible in this situation because it's equivalent to two-bars of 3/4.
Just like in this case, there are also Yamaha rhythms that use different time signatures, different tempos, tempo variations, and even rallentandos, which are not possible with the style creator.

If you have a 4/4 time signature at 120 BPM and halve that tempo (60 BPM), you will then have the equivalent of two bars that could be used for fills.
Regards,
Gabriel