Critique Genos2..by owners?

[Duffy]

Exactly this, mate! We can bicker, but there's no need to be condescending to each other


Mark

What's condescending about that ?
Is it not correct that our needs or wants are not all the same ?
Maybe it would save time if you told me exactly what you object to in my post ?

[p$manK32]

What's condescending about that ?

Duffy, I think you misinterpreted Mark's comment. He was agreeing with you that people should not be condescending to each other. He wasn't saying you were condescending to people.

Rich

[Duffy]

Duffy, I think you misinterpreted Mark's comment. He was agreeing with you that people should not be condescending to each other. He wasn't saying you were condescending to people.

Rich

Thank you for that Rich.  I sure got that wrong and feel pretty stupid now.  I hereby apologise to Mark for my stupid mistake.

[p$manK32]

It wasn't a stupid mistake at all. Internet chatting is not face-to-face communication, so a lot of things people write just get misinterpreted. I noticed this one so I just thought I would comment.

Rich

[pjd]

Glad y'all worked that out.

This is one of the best Forums for interaction. Thanks to everyone for making it so.

Keep on playin' — pj

[Amwilburn]

Thank you for that Rich.  I sure got that wrong and feel pretty stupid now.  I hereby apologise to Mark for my stupid mistake.

No apologies necessary!

It's all good. Like Rich said, it wasn't a stupid mistake. It's easy to minsconstrue.

Mark

[ryanb741]

I had a play on one today and was shocked at how plasticky the keys were. For context I've come from playing Yamaha Clavinovas and this would be my first keyboard - ideally I wanted it to replace the Clavinova to save space and double up as a keyboard and piano but the action is just so different. I'll probably still go ahead as the sound quality is so good but are any of you guys using this to play piano as well as being a keyboard?

[J. Larry]

Like others, I've been watching many of the videos on the Genos 2.  I'll most likely upgrade when I sell what I've got.  Question---why doesn't Yamaha have any cracker jack demo folks who sing, as well.  I want to hear many of those VH preset harmonies.  Vocals are a major part of what I do with Yamaha arrangers. 

[soundphase]

I'm now another proud owner of Genos2.

I took advantage of the Genos2's arrival to slightly change the orientation of my speakers and retighten a few screws to avoid parasitic vibrations. (My speakers are getting old).
So I'm not 100% sure that my impressions are simply related to the Genos2.

In my opinion, the Genos2, while using the same samples, really brings a lot of realism. The new reverb gives the spectacular impression that the instruments are next to you or further away in a small room, or a church, or a cathedral.

I'm not sure why, but violins are slightly softer and less aggressive (with the same samples). The big Mantovani orchestras are still missing, but it's better.

In terms of style and drums&bass, it was already good with the Genos1, but here it's breathtaking.
Styles also benefit completely from the new guitars and deeper piano sound, and there are many styles involved.

The new acoustic guitar is a delight.

I understand that from the outside you might wonder what's new, but for me, I'll just say: the sound.

[ton37]

Yes, It was already said, so I repeat: it's all about 'The Sound' ... and the rest is a bonus

[AndrewKeyz]

I had a play on one today and was shocked at how plasticky the keys were. For context I've come from playing Yamaha Clavinovas and this would be my first keyboard - ideally I wanted it to replace the Clavinova to save space and double up as a keyboard and piano but the action is just so different. I'll probably still go ahead as the sound quality is so good but are any of you guys using this to play piano as well as being a keyboard?

I wouldn't say the Genos 1 or 2 (same keybed as far as I know, I noticed no difference) is good for piano at all.
You can definitely adapt to it, but it's not going to be the best of experiences losing the weighted feel.

I acquired a P525. For me one of the best approximations of a piano feel that doesn't have real hammers (like the large Kawai or Yamaha hybrid actions).

A Genos 2 is obviously the absolute top of the line arrangers now, but if you need a piano replacement with some backing features perhaps even a DGX670 is worth considering and save a ton of money. Or a two keybed option would give you the best of both worlds (allowing piano + easy organ-esque glissandi when required): A P525 + SX900 / or Genos 1 / or Genos 2 if money is no concern.

Edit: Oh and of course there is a Korg PA5X-88. Personally I didn't like the keybed or the sound as much as a Genos or Yamaha weighted actions, but it definitely isn't a bad instrument.
Just pointing out there are other options out there, for pianists who don't want to be stuck with the light plastic keybed feel of a Genos 1 or 2.

I had an awesome time with the Genos 1 and like I said, you can adapt to the keybed feel over time but it's never going to be as good as even a $1000 or $2000 weighted keybed.

[pjd]

I acquired a P525. For me one of the best approximations of a piano feel that doesn't have real hammers (like the large Kawai or Yamaha hybrid actions).

Good choice!

In general, I agree with Andrew's points. Every now and again, I have to shift over to the acoustic grand at church. Practice on a digital piano is better prep and a smoother transition than practice on Genos1 (FSX).

I'm going with a Clavinova CSP-170, mainly for piano practice. The CSPs have some auto-accompaniment features, preset sounds roughly the same as SX700 (CSP 100 series), and adaptive styles. The CSP 200 series has more preset voices per Yamaha upgrade SOP. Not as expensive as CVP, which is outrageous.

It always comes down to personal need, goals and budget.

All the best -- pj

[GrannyRocks]

I have to keep playing my piano, too, or I lose my facility. Fortunately I have a piano, and I love it. Can't get so carried away learning the Genos that I lose my ability to play my acoustic instrument, which serves me so well. And for me, there is nothing like an acoustic piano, which picks up every nuance and feeds my soul with its fantastic vibrational energy. Please do not interpret this as a put-down of digitals. I love my Genos, too, but for different reasons. There is such a thrill in sitting down and playing the tenor sax!

[mikf]

There are people who think the Genos 2 is a wonderful instrument ....
There are people who are disappointed in the Genos 2 (and Yamaha) because it doesn't meet their expectation...
There are people who think it's great value...
There are people who think it is not worth the extra cost over keeping their Genos 1....
They are all correct, because they all have different needs and expectations. And this is a forum, and one of the purposes is to exchange views, positive and negative. In a reasonable, and respectful manner. Some we will agree with, some not.
We read posts - or don't read -, and weight them accordingly. I see no 'hate and anger' in reasonable exchange of views on the pros and cons of a keyboard, or even the corporation who made it. If there was I would have acted to moderate it.
And as for the idea that we can only hold a point of view if we have seen and touched it......we make these kind of judgements and decisions all the time in life based on data well short of seeing and touching... just from reviews, specs, reading or listening to other people's assessments. And sometimes for much higher amounts or consequences than this keyboard.
Mike

[andyg]

The big Mantovani orchestras are still missing....

I wouldn't say they're missing, but like any keyboard or organ that I've ever played (and you can imagine that's an awful lot given my time in the business!), don't expect just one patch to do it. Blending of strings is de rigeur for this sound. I have a Roland AT900P organ and its strings basically blow away anything else out there, but if I want real strings, I'll carefully mix two, three or even four sounds together.

I haven't yet had a chance to try out the new strings on Genos 2 but I'm certain my rule will still apply! Once you start mixing, you can come up with all sorts of string sections, from a quartet, through chamber strings and Mantovani, right up to full blown classical orchestra. There are enough strings in there to do all of those! But just one caveat: Don't use the same voice twice at the same octave, as you'll get phasing artefacts. And do make sure to pan your strings across the stereo. They're stereo sounds anyway, but shifting left and right will add 'space' to the sound.

Give it a go and have fun!

[mikf]

I have never thought of what is called the Mantovani sound as actually a sound or voice. Its an orchestration technique. There was nothing different about the actual sound of his violins, it's how he orchestrated them, delivering overlapping descending runs from different string sections, to create a sustained, cascading effect. A keyboard player can get this a little bit using the sustain pedal, and a heavy resonance on the voice. But to get really close needs a technique that takes too many hands for live playing.
Mike

[ryanb741]

Good choice!

In general, I agree with Andrew's points. Every now and again, I have to shift over to the acoustic grand at church. Practice on a digital piano is better prep and a smoother transition than practice on Genos1 (FSX).

I'm going with a Clavinova CSP-170, mainly for piano practice. The CSPs have some auto-accompaniment features, preset sounds roughly the same as SX700 (CSP 100 series), and adaptive styles. The CSP 200 series has more preset voices per Yamaha upgrade SOP. Not as expensive as CVP, which is outrageous.

It always comes down to personal need, goals and budget.

All the best -- pj

Many thanks for your reply, appreciate it.

What I think I'll do is get the Genos 2 but also buy a CP88 to use as a piano. Quick Q on this, I live in an apartment and would have this set up in the living room. Assuming I get a stand where the CP88 is set at piano hight and the Genos 2 is set above it at an angle then I can have both keyboards without a large footprint. In this case would I assume that I should avoid buying the Genos speakers but instead get a mixer and some monitors on speaker stands so I van have both instruments input into the mixer and then out to the monitors? Any advice on stand/monitors without me heading for an early divorce by overspending too much? 😀

[alvaromrocha]

Genos 2 IS BASICALLY a Genos 1, with very minor enhancements, mostly all totally possible with just a software update in Genos 1, and yes, that includes FM, for it always had the FM-X sound generating hardware, albeit unused.

It's the exact same sound hardware.
Mostly exact same AWM samples.
The sound quality is the exact same! It's differences, whete they may be, lie in fx tinkering.

Is it good?
As good as the Genos 1 ever was.
A magnificent buy if you're a new user, a shameless ripoff, on what should have just been the promised always evolving upgrades ("we listen to our users 2.0 firmware upgrade is the start of continuous improvements to come") that never came to be. Maybe because most users couldn't be bothered to know how to uodate and got stuck to v1. 4, or maybe because charging 6000k on those core users is way better margins...

It's not good policy on pro users that were already fooled into Genos 1, which ended up being an excelent sounding but totally unfinished self-crippled toy trying to pass for pro gear (the sound does indeed but the rest is mainly amateur homeuser land - sounding top producer though - neutured by legacy restraints and outdated limiting worklow ergonomics).

[ton37]

Just a quick check: do you have a Genos2 yourself? You are of course free to give your views and you may be right on a number of points? I also check what others (including 'professional' artists!) think of it, as well as the various G2 users on this forum. The transition from Genos(1) to Genos2 may be (technically/practically) less significant than expected than from 'older/other' models. Maybe this (G1 owners) is not the target group for Yamaha? But usually an 'honest' review is not always a review that is useful to you: mainly because it is based on 'emotional' values (mainly: taste, feeling, love, fantastic sound, love it ... etc.) . In addition, it is simplier to focus on technical features: that can be assessed more objectively (And in the examples you mention, you go a bit wrong with that  ).  And there are many things in the Genos2 that appeal to people (and me) in a positive way. And... everyone makes their own choice whether or not to buy something... you can't blame Yamaha for that, at most you can blame yourself .....  that you could not resist Yamaha's marketing powerrr

[spaceair]

the price is high because the item is going on sale and it is being bought for such a price.. if it didn't sell it would quickly start lowering it

[mikf]

the price is high because the item is going on sale and it is being bought for such a price.. if it didn't sell it would quickly start lowering it

Not completely true, keyboard pricing is not 100% elastic and is set by Yamaha to make a return on their investment. If the keyboard doesn't sell well, and they are forced to reduce prices, then they probably make a poor ROI, which has serious consequences for future models. 
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Genos 2 IS BASICALLY a Genos 1, with very minor enhancements, mostly all totally possible with just a software update in Genos 1, and yes, that includes FM, for it always had the FM-X sound generating hardware, albeit unused.

It's the exact same sound hardware.
Mostly exact same AWM samples.
The sound quality is the exact same! It's differences, whete they may be, lie in fx tinkering.

Is it good?
As good as the Genos 1 ever was.
A magnificent buy if you're a new user, a shameless ripoff, on what should have just been the promised always evolving upgrades ("we listen to our users 2.0 firmware upgrade is the start of continuous improvements to come") that never came to be. Maybe because most users couldn't be bothered to know how to uodate and got stuck to v1. 4, or maybe because charging 6000k on those core users is way better margins...

It's not good policy on pro users that were already fooled into Genos 1, which ended up being an excelent sounding but totally unfinished self-crippled toy trying to pass for pro gear (the sound does indeed but the rest is mainly amateur homeuser land - sounding top producer though - neutured by legacy restraints and outdated limiting worklow ergonomics).

As someone who often gets a peek behind the scenes: (and in fact, I had a hand in designing the CVP309PE, which is why I can't ever bear to sell mine)

Yes, nearly all content from one model will make it into the next model (for backwards compatibility); and the stuff that doesn't make it, consumers immediately notice and cry fowl (missing Tyros 5 styles from G1, anybody?)

The casing looks similar. The insides are quite different.
The G2 contains the CLP785 piano sample, the G1 did not. There is now a *brand redacted but the most enduring American/German brand of acoustic* piano, which the G1 sorely lacked.

To quote: ". Most of the sounds are using brand new samples, and everything is now going through what we call REVelation reverb, a groundbreaking sound processor developed by Steinberg. "

As Eileen and a few others put it: It now sounds *real*


Is it an absolute shame they didn't implement SSS? yes. Baffling to me. But to go around claiming the G2 is just a G1 is ridiculous.

ton37 put it rather succinctly above. Yes there may be more things we were expecting due to marketing, and you (we) are all allowed to be underwhelmed by that. But they are most certainly not the same thing.

However, that perception is understandable given that the CVP809 and 909 are *nearly* identical, but that's for a completey different reason I'm not allowed to get into yet. But that's the exception to the norm, not the norm.


Mark

[rattley]

Hello!

Now that I have my Genos 2 I can voice an opinion I've had since watching and listening to all the demos. I keep reading about Genos 2 being a minor improvement. Which Genos 2 do you own?  I know mine has sounds like I have never heard in a Yamaha arranger before. I'd like to see a Genos 2 opened up to see what the differences inside are. I believe it's more than you might imagine.  I know mines a keeper!  -charley

[rattley]

Hello!

Another 2 hours playing my new toy!  As I said before there are wonderful new sounds coming out of my speakers. As high as the treble seems the bass is so punchy yet so clear. Definitely lower lows than I was used too. Now I actually feel that bass thru the keys. It just adds to the whole sonic experience. The Bohemian Waltz style has the tuba doing the best oom pa pa's I've heard. The brass band has real intonation just like a brass band should, especially on a cold day. I've run into many other instances of a nuance either in the style itself or in the rhythm. These nuances add realism and I believe Yamaha has used them perfectly. They are not excessively done.

I'm still trying to get the treble reduced. The EQ settings are completely different on Genos 2. The EQ ranges aren't the same. My saved EQ settings are now useless. Maybe they weren't from a Genos?  Don't get me wrong, I lowered the treble settings but it takes other stuff too. I need to get the high end to be as clear as the low end. Keep in mind I'm using an Onkyo amp driving 2 KLH Model 5's. They are awesome speakers.

With a setup like mine I always tried NOT to use the Onkyo's tone settings and leave them flat. I adjust all my tone settings (EQ) on Genos first. I figure this way the songs I record will sound more like what is coming out of Genos instead of my amp. I know EQ settings are arbitrary to each listener but I need to start somewhere. Any EQ settings are most welcome. Thanks.  -charley

[ton37]

Hi @rattley, as you mentioned: setting EQ is soooo personal taste. Have you tried the presets of the HS7/ HS8/ Stagepas? Those settings can be a start? I discovered ( on my Sx900 and former Genos) that in spite of the master EQ, various styles/voices need a finetuning on the fly to my taste. That's why I'm using a external mixer, so that a quick tuning can be done in the hight, mids and lows. This works for me.
I don't know if the EQ can be adjusted in the G2 using the sliders?
Jm2c

[Leading Edge]

I don't recall this level of complaints and moaning when the Genos 1 was introduced so something must be amiss.

[ton37]

Oh well, it's not too bad, I think. I hope you also read that G2 owners were very, very satisfied with the sound of the G2? These are not always complaints or moaning. Sometimes it is also curiosity and learning to deal with new functions and settings. That's part of playing the keyboard. If you don't like that, just get an acoustic piano or guitar or saxophone. It was the case every time with the Genos or Tyros (or any other complicated digital object). Just read a few hundred posts back in time (about 6 years!). So: nothing new under the sun... 

[BogdanH]

I don't recall this level of complaints and moaning when the Genos 1 was introduced so something must be amiss.

There will always be complaints and that's to be expected. But what is important, is how you interpret those complaints and turn them into your perspective (your needs).

Genos2 is definitely the best arranger that Yamaha made so far -yes, is better than Genos1 obviously. But after that, opinions start to differ depending on: what keyboard you currently have, what are your needs and on size of your wallet.
For example: Difference between (my) SX700 and Genos2 is huge. The question is, do I need it to perform better? If answer is yes, then I have no reason to complain about Genos2. Of course I can share my opinion if Genos2 is worth to buy (given the specs), but that should be interpreted correctly -because I told everyone that I'm looking from SX700 perspective. And so I think my opinion can be of some value for those who have similar keyboard.. and wallet 
Switching from Genos1 to Genos2... well, I guess those who did that (or will do) have their reasons 

I'm not into Genos and so why I'm even discussing about Genos2? Because it shows me what I might expect for SX700 successor. And that's why I'm disappointed about Genos2.. because as it seems, there will be nothing that I'm hoping for. You see? I'm talking from my perspective.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[ton37]

Completely recognizable @Bogdan. I am still very happy with my SX900. Based on your own needs, you can continue to do well with this for a number of years. When you hear how beautiful sounds come from it! But another few (4) years have passed. The Genos2 has set a new benchmark. So that's why our qualifications are being raised to a higher level. That's called (technological) progress. We have to guess what the successor to the Genos2 in the SX range will look like. There will probably be some things from the G2 again, but what exactly will become clear in a few years? 

[DerekA]

I don't recall this level of complaints and moaning when the Genos 1 was introduced so something must be amiss.

Oh, I definitely remember it!