GENOS 2 vs. the original DX7 sounds: a comparison

[ton37]

It is the Genos2 and the original Yamaha DX7 side by side!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii0iFN1W_0w

FYI: it is German talking, so pls. use the translator. But the sounds don't need translation.

[Joe H]

My understanding is that the FM sound engine IS a software version of the DX7.  It is a real synthesizer and will accept the original DX7 patches you can find for free all over the internet.

Joe H

[ton37]

I'm not that technical, but most important 'the sound is there' !

++ from Yamaha site +++
Legendary FM Synthesis.

In an Arranger Workstation first, Genos2 features a dual engine tone generator with not only AWM technology but now also FM synthesis.
++++
FWIW: thought that was hardware (sound-chip?) but maybe I'm wrong?

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Joe
I thought from what i heard that you cannot put your own DX sounds in.
I have loads  of DX sounds and would love the Genos 2 to accept them.
Would you think we would load them in Banks or packs??
I do hope we can use any DX sounds
Just looked at my Dx sound extensions and they are SYX files

Can any Genos 2 owners tell me what the DX7 extensions are in the downloaded pack?
If they are SYX then we can make packs till the cows come home.

All the best
John

[Joe H]

John,

There are sound banks for the DX7 on the internet with the extension .syx.  I think I read in the manual, that the Gonos2 has memory for 128 FM User sounds.  I may be wrong about that.  Maybe someone who has a Genos 2 can confirm this.

Ton, the FM Voices in Genos2 are not sampled sounds but a real DX7 synthesizer.

Joe H

[maartenb]

the Gonos2 has memory for 128 FM User sounds.

I think you mean the FM engine has a 128 note polyphony.


Maarten

[Joe H]

I think you mean the FM engine has a 128 note polyphony.


Maarten

No, if you look at the specs you will see there is memory for 128 User AWM Voices and memory for 128 FM User Voices.

Joe H

[Amwilburn]

It is the Genos2 and the original Yamaha DX7 side by side!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii0iFN1W_0w

FYI: it is German talking, so pls. use the translator. But the sounds don't need translation.

Thanks for uploading this!

Hmm... Bass hold. I wonder if he simply used left hold and put a bassnote in with his left pinky, or is there actually a new bass hold mode (like they feature in the Ketron Event)... oh wait, upon rewatching it, he uses the sustain pedal to activate Bass Hold, keep the same bass regardless of chord. Which is already on the G1.

Alas, it acts the same as a slash chord (so for the 80's power rock, holding E as the bass still doesn't give me the same riff as holding EM)



Mark

[ton37]

No, if you look at the specs you will see there is memory for 128 User AWM Voices and memory for 128 FM User Voices.

Joe H

Were did you read that @Joe H.?

In the specification I see under <VOICES>, <POLYPHONY (MAX.)>,  <128 for Preset ..etc.. 128 for FM voices>
Thus 384 total.
(Page 132 Owner's Manual)

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

DX voices do not take up much room

[Joe H]

Were did you read that @Joe H.?

In the specification I see under <VOICES>, <POLYPHONY (MAX.)>,  <128 for Preset ..etc.. 128 for FM voices>
Thus 384 total.
(Page 132 Owner's Manual)

I stand corrected



Joe H

[Amwilburn]

Happens to the best of us

Even our resident guru, pjd (although he claims it's happened, I've never actually *seen* it)

[Sokratis1974]

In fact, the Genos 2 includes and accurately reproduces the FM synthesis engine of the legendary DX7 but it only works as a FM Player with 128 preset sound of DX7, with 128 note polyphony and not as a full open FM editable engine (like Montage M).
Consequently, Genos 2 now has two playback engines and these are the AWM technology (Advanced Wave Memory) which uses samples and can be used by the user (in the sense that it can load new samples or multisamples through YEM), and the FM synthesis of the DX7 which, however, cannot be processed through the FM Operators as it exists in Montage M but all we can do is select and play the DX7 preset sounds found in Genos 2.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Sokrati
I am not worried about making DX sounds but will DX samples be allowed to be loaded of our own and just as you say only manipulated.
We can get DX sounds easily on say Artruria DX7 and adjust them to our liking.
Only if we could load them.
I cannot understand why we canot load DX voices into packs of our own as yamaha make free packs.
It does not make sense
Is that correct that the DXpack is only information to access each sound only, like a closed system?

All the Best
John

[DerekA]

The G2 has I believe the same full FM synthesis engine as found in Montage and MODX.

What is missing is a way to instruct that engine on how to set the parameters for the operators. The inbuilt voice files, and the voice files loaded from the DX pack, contain those instructions. But it does not look like Yamaha are giving a route for end users to create their own set of instructions.

On a real DX, Montage, MODX etc this is done by sending a stream of SY*** instructions, each of which sets one parameter. But that route also seems closed on G2. Or at least, it is undocumented. Perhaps someone could try sending the SY*** for a DX patch to G2 and see what happens!

It does seem a real shame to restrict the FM engine to only working with sets of instructions supplied by Yamaha. Personally I see little advangate of that over a good set of AWM2 samples such as found in the EasySounds FM pack.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I would understand more if yamaha was charging for dx packs.
All being free does not make sense . New packs when Yamaha say so. Seems odd to me
Hope my Easy sounds packs  loads up and not now defunct.
I wonder how Easy Sounds converts DX sounds to load on to YEM??

[DerekA]

The EasySounds packs are audio samples for the AWM2 engine, just the same as samples of pianos, oboes, violins, etc. It just happens that the source being sampled is itself a digital tone generator.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Anything different that i want, i can always use Sample Robot, but not a great amount of space for samples now.

[Joe H]

The G2 has I believe the same full FM synthesis engine as found in Montage and MODX...

What is missing is a way to instruct that engine on how to set the parameters for the operators...
It does seem a real shame to restrict the FM engine to only working with sets of instructions supplied by Yamaha. Personally I see little advangate of that over a good set of AWM2 samples such as found in the EasySounds FM pack.

I agree with you on all of that.  It is strange what Yamaha has done with the Genos2 FM. But the one advantage is the real FM EPs will have that "honk", whereas the samples will not have the same characteristic sound of the real FM EPs.

Joe H

[Joe H]

FYI... There is a DX200 plug-in Editor for XGWorks.  Maybe it is possible to make at least temporary changes to the FM sounds, or possibly save the edits as a FM User Voice. 



Joe H

[pjd]

Happens to the best of us

Even our resident guru, pjd (although he claims it's happened, I've never actually *seen* it)

Never confess to anything. Don't speak without a lawyer present.

[pjd]

As folks have noted, Genos2 is real FM, in hardware, not software. Kronos, by the way, does Korg FM (Variable Phase Modulation) in software, getting only 52 voices of polyphony.

Yamaha polyphony specs are solid as a rock because AWM2 and FM synthesis are implemented in hardware. No resource sharing with any other activity as one would encounter with software implementation.

SWP70 has both AWM2 and FM hardware engines. It can do AWM and FM contemporaneously. Proof point -- MODX -- one SWP70 doing both AWM and FM-X.

Yamaha's market strategy is "If you want a synth, buy a synth." They did not want to go through the expense of developing an on-board FM editor. You want FM-X, you know where to look and get out your wallet. 

There is a possible back door -- the YEM database. I'd like to look at the internals of the DX7 expansion pack. Yamaha needed to add a data representation for the FM voices. Maybe there are new UVF (XML) tags for FM voices? Inquiring minds want to know.

BTW, Genos1 SWP70 has the FM engine, too. Locked. And I know what the next question will be ...   

All the best -- pj

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/patents-gex-infiniq-dx7/

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Anyone who has Arturia DX7??


https://legacy-forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=95667.0

[Joe H]

As folks have noted, Genos2 is real FM, in hardware, not software...

But how is it that Yamaha can produce a FM expansion pack? Until now, the packs have been sampled wave forms only. Looking at the data list, Genos2 appears to NOT support FM sy***. So... the DX200 plug-in editor for XGWorks will probably not work.  And there is no way to load DX patches into Genos2. As you suggest, Yamaha don't think many arranger owners will want or to need to edit/create new FM Voices.



Joe H

[Sokratis1974]

Anyone who has Arturia DX7??


https://legacy-forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=95667.0

I have it but I also have an original DX7 which still works great!! There are quite a few dissimilarities in the preset sounds. However, Arturia's FM synthesis engine is highly advanced over the original (hardware) DX7.
However I have to admit that I have never been a (guru) in FM synthesis since I found it particularly complex compared to subtractive synthesis.

[rattley]

Hello!

"All being free does not make sense"...................The man on the corner in my neighborhood always gives the first one free??

-charley

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I have it but I also have an original DX7 which still works great!! There are quite a few dissimilarities in the preset sounds. However, Arturia's FM synthesis engine is highly advanced over the original (hardware) DX7.
However I have to admit that I have never been a (guru) in FM synthesis since I found it particularly complex compared to subtractive synthesis.

Hi Soktatis
If you have an Arturia DX7 and say for example Cubase those sounds are already made, you just have to put a little reverb or whatever to your liking. With all of those sounds you cannot go wrong. All go to. I also found that Native FM8 can read original DX7 files SYSX
Oh well it is a all there if someone wants it

All the Best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

But how is it that Yamaha can produce a FM expansion pack? Until now, the packs have been sampled wave forms only. Looking at the data list, Genos2 appears to NOT support FM sy***. So... the DX200 plug-in editor for XGWorks will probably not work.  And there is no way to load DX patches into Genos2. As you suggest, Yamaha don't think many arranger owners will want or to need to edit/create new FM Voices.



Joe H

Hi Joe

It is a little silly that Yamaha has not allowed us to load our own DX samples or information to trigger the DX.
They give free packs away, so why not give us the full monty.
DX files are not large files.
Oh well, it is what it is until we find a wizard!!
If Yamaha can make a pack ,then it its possible. Have to see what the future brings.
Anyway we have enough sound to get on with in Genos 2, but it would be nice explore everything we can.

All the Best
John

[DerekA]

If Yamaha can make a pack ,then it its possible. Have to see what the future brings.

I think this is true. It's just a matter of cracking the format in the pack. Maybe it will be really obvious XML like <Operator1Frequency>.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

"WE NEED FUTURE BOY MARTY" "86mph"!!! "make sure the flux capacitor is primed"