Reduced Memory Size Genos 2

[AndrewKeyz]

Thinking about this more; this one really bugs me.

From 58GB (Genos 1) internal storage to 15GB (Genos 2).

No micro SD slots like on the Korg Pa5X (it has two!).

Storage is cheap these days. Even Scrooge like Apple gives 256GB in their lowest offerings now (Mac Mini £649).

So why did Yamaha go this route?

Why should a user ever have to worry about for example saving 20 takes of a song per day (Wav format, 3 minutes) and not delete if it means that
with 256GB you would only run out after about 10 years, but with 15GB you have to manage your storage constantly?

Even if they couldn't be arsed adding more than 15GB, at least give people the micro SD option. Because then, fine, I will spend the mammoth (!) £20 to increase available storage by 256GB minimum and again, not have to worry for about 10 years and keep everything I ever played.

Awful decision!

Now sure, you CAN use USB flash drives, but really, I think this is a step back and quite archaic in design to say the least when we are all used to having mobile phones and cloud storage solutions where no one has to worry about deleting a thing.

If anything the Genos 2 provided an opportunity for Yamaha to also go down the cloud route. You buy the expensive machine and log in with a Yamaha account. Anything you record can then be downloaded from a Yamaha website portal or app so no longer needs to be physically transferred to a computer, they are always backed up, unlimited storage etc. etc.

[marcodg]

It's really sad what there have done with memory. G1 has 58 Gb internal memory and 4 GB expansion memory. Now there are selling something with HW from 2008 with less memory than his predecessor. Yamaha that s b*****t
It s really desappointed.

[RonsonDenmark]

It's really sad what there have done with memory. G1 has 58 Gb internal memory and 4 GB expansion memory. Now there are selling something with HW from 2008 with less memory than his predecessor. Yamaha that s b*****t
It s really desappointed.

From what I can find on google the software update made the expansion memory go from 1.8 to 3 GB, the official specs also say 3 GB. What are your sources for it having 4 GB?

[AndrewKeyz]

From what I can find on google the software update made the expansion memory go from 1.8 to 3 GB, the official specs also say 3 GB. What are your sources for it having 4 GB?

Yes I think that is right. My YEM says 3072MB.

I don't know why Yamaha could not have increased that drastically including the user memory.

This only points to a future in which you can forget about seeing more expansions than you saw on the Genos 1 I think, because with that one you could already not load all the packs available in one go on your Genos 1.

The user memory is annoying as you will eventually have to delete recordings. Why should I have to do that on a £5000 machine when a £429 iphone can store more? It's insane.

[AidanG]

Bear in mind  that the Genos 2.0 firmware update didn't 'increase' the memory on the original board – it just made pre-existing RAM suddenly available. Yamaha probably had already planned in that 'refresh' when they unveiled the original Genos. So I wouldn't be surprised if they pull a similar trick with Genos2 a couple of years down the line. Personally, it's not a trick I can really applaud but I guess it underlines how much Yamaha understands the power of marketing.

What the Genos2 launch did re-emphasise is how much 'recycling' is going on with the big music hardware manufacturers these days, especially in the face of strong competition from VST/AU software developers. Just as Yamaha has gone 'back to the future', shovelling old technologies such as FM and ANX into new keyboards, Roland is doing exactly the same with its Juno heritage, while Korg is busy recreating old synths such as the MS20 and ARP2600.

What this tells me is that they're all desperately trying to keep a lid on R&D and engineering costs in the face of ever tighter margins, particularly post-Covid and the resultant microprocessor shortages which have affected consumer electronics across the board.

[Keyboard Master]

Thinking about this more; this one really bugs me.

From 58GB (Genos 1) internal storage to 15GB (Genos 2).

No micro SD slots like on the Korg Pa5X (it has two!).

Storage is cheap these days. Even Scrooge like Apple gives 256GB in their lowest offerings now (Mac Mini £649).

So why did Yamaha go this route?

Why should a user ever have to worry about for example saving 20 takes of a song per day (Wav format, 3 minutes) and not delete if it means that
with 256GB you would only run out after about 10 years, but with 15GB you have to manage your storage constantly?

Even if they couldn't be arsed adding more than 15GB, at least give people the micro SD option. Because then, fine, I will spend the mammoth (!) £20 to increase available storage by 256GB minimum and again, not have to worry for about 10 years and keep everything I ever played.

Awful decision!

Now sure, you CAN use USB flash drives, but really, I think this is a step back and quite archaic in design to say the least when we are all used to having mobile phones and cloud storage solutions where no one has to worry about deleting a thing.

If anything the Genos 2 provided an opportunity for Yamaha to also go down the cloud route. You buy the expensive machine and log in with a Yamaha account. Anything you record can then be downloaded from a Yamaha website portal or app so no longer needs to be physically transferred to a computer, they are always backed up, unlimited storage etc. etc.

I'm thinking a firmware update would expand it to 58 gb

[marcodg]

How is this possible ?
Doppelt memory by Compression OK. Now 4 time increase
I'm interessed because from now it's the thing that really take me away from G2

[Fred Smith]

It's really sad what there have done with memory. G1 has 58 Gb internal memory and 4 GB expansion memory. Now there are selling something with HW from 2008 with less memory than his predecessor. Yamaha that s b*****t
It s really desappointed.

G1 never had 4Gb of expansion memory. The most it ever had was 3 Gb.

Cheers,
Fred

[pjd]

G1 never had 4Gb of expansion memory. The most it ever had was 3 Gb.
Cheers, Fred

Fred has it right. Genos1 has 2GBytes of physical waveform expansion memory. [Source: Genos1 Service Manual] Yamaha increased the usable capacity through compression (firmware).

If anyone gets the service manual for Genos2, please send me PM. 

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

Corrections aside -- and I rarely use this kind of language -- the decision to decrease USER drive space from 58GB to 15GB is stupid. This decision cost Yamaha good will, for what, a few Yen?

By the way, I worked as a customer-facing, engineering manager for decades and I don't make remarks like this lightly.

Yamaha needs to change its culture from penny-pinching hardware engineering to a broader perspective on consumer opinion and relations. Users know that flash memory is cheap; don't treat us like fools. It's a $5,700 USD keyboard, for pity sakes.

I hate to dump on Yamaha this way. In this particular case, they earned it.

-- pj

[Amwilburn]

I just saw the spec... 3GB of expansion memory? Same as the G1? Or 3GB and they'll magically multiply it like they did with G1 and Korg always does? Yes, Korg pulls this as well; originally the Pa4x was listed as 400mb flash ram, but after an update (after the G1 was released) the upped it to 1.5GB, supposedly through compression
the PA1000 also got upped, but I can't remember the advertised before and after now, just that it was very slight. Something like 320mb to 400mb

The whole reason I was looking forward to G2, other than new sounds and styles (and was hoping for SSS), was more sample space.
But if that's 3GB of physical expansion memory, then maybe... 5GB with an OS update?

15GB ssd does seem small. Keep in mind the T2 didn't come with a hard drive, but they sold 80GB ones standard for it. Then the T3 came with 80 GB standard. Then the T4 came with a 320GB HD, and finally the T5 came with a 500GB hd (mind you it was a standard platter, not an SSD or hybrid) so when the Genos reduced it's used drive size to 58gb, I shrugged an though "ok, at least it's faster".

But 15? Doesn't leave you much room for a potential expansion on high speed swap space for expansion memory.

Mark

[soundphase]

Yes. Memory space is truly very disappointing.

[andy_v]

Maybe the new piano samples are hogging those 43GB? But if so I would have expected them to find a way to explain that and turn it into a selling point.

[valimaties]

My supposition: the demonstrator from Yamaha team at Bonner's music G2 demonstration said that we don't need moving screen (tilt), I don't know who is naming "we", because there was a lot of users on facebook which expected such a screen on the new Genos. Probably, as they said we don't need tiltable screen, they say we don't need more than 15GB of space 
Supposition 

[AndrewKeyz]

My supposition: the demonstrator from Yamaha team at Bonner's music G2 demonstration said that we don't need moving screen (tilt), I don't know who is naming "we", because there was a lot of users on facebook which expected such a screen on the new Genos. Probably, as they said we don't need tiltable screen, they say we don't need more than 15GB of space 
Supposition 

That's exactly the type of thing that guy would say. Very salesman like
"Tony, we have 15GB on board for users. 15! Did you know that my first computer only had a 20mb hard drive in 1987. Tony, this is 15GB! 15! No user in the world needs more than 10, but we have given you 15! 15!"

[Oldden]

Just had a look at a video showings Korg's tiltable screen. It knocks the spots of Genos, the design of the information shown is far clearer and better. I have a Genos and a music light on top of the stand, set the light for the best view of the music and it shines on the screen, so it's a case of  you have to compromise.

[AndrewKeyz]

Just had a look at a video showings Korg's tiltable screen. It knocks the spots of Genos, the design of the information shown is far clearer and better. I have a Genos and a music light on top of the stand, set the light for the best view of the music and it shines on the screen, so it's a case of  you have to compromise.

The PA5X screen was indeed clearer to read in my opinion. (vs Genos 1).

But what do I know? I don't need a tiltable screen, nor do I need a clearer screen I guess. 

I just don't think much has changed with the design. The whole 5% extra tilt thing almost seems like the only reason to change something and give a designer something to do for 10 minutes.

If the Genos 2 was presented in white, I would have possibly have ordered one already. No joke.
The (original) Montage WH versions look incredible.

[pjd]

Maybe the new piano samples are hogging those 43GB? But if so I would have expected them to find a way to explain that and turn it into a selling point.

Hi Andy --

Welcome to the Forum!

There are two physically separate and independent memory subsytems under discussion: Waveform memory and USER drive memory.

Waveform memory is connected directly to the SWP70 tone generator ICs. There are two SWP70s. Both waveform memories are ONFI NAND flash. One waveform memory (SWP70) handles factory preset waveforms. The other waveform memory handles user waveforms, i.e., expansion memory. Expansion memory on G1 and G2 are the same size.

The USER drive is an eMMC solid state device which is attached to the host CPU (an ARM running Linux). The USER drive does not contain or have anything to do with waveforms (AKA samples). The G1 user drive is 58GB; G2 USER is 15GB.

Hope this clarifies -- pj

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-main-cpu/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/

[Enildo]

Hello Guys!

And I thought that Yamaha had changed its policy of reducing things that are working.
I was happy with the inclusion of HDMI (I asked for this a lot here on the forum), as I expect an integrated HDMI in the SX900.2.
They removed the Fade in/out button - SX900, with the options to assign it to the Rotary SP button or one of the 6 assignable buttons, but I wonder: why remove it?
As for the other implements, I really liked them!
I think they could have improved StyleCreator with an integrated CASM.
I hope they give us at least one new YEM, as a gift along with the G2.

But don't worry, the Genos 3 will come with 116GB, tiltable screen, vs 61 keys and with other requests. Lol

Enildo

[sjmarano]

Thinking about this more; this one really bugs me.

From 58GB (Genos 1) internal storage to 15GB (Genos 2).

No micro SD slots like on the Korg Pa5X (it has two!).

Storage is cheap these days. Even Scrooge like Apple gives 256GB in their lowest offerings now (Mac Mini £649).

So why did Yamaha go this route?

Why should a user ever have to worry about for example saving 20 takes of a song per day (Wav format, 3 minutes) and not delete if it means that
with 256GB you would only run out after about 10 years, but with 15GB you have to manage your storage constantly?

Even if they couldn't be arsed adding more than 15GB, at least give people the micro SD option. Because then, fine, I will spend the mammoth (!) £20 to increase available storage by 256GB minimum and again, not have to worry for about 10 years and keep everything I ever played.

Awful decision!

Now sure, you CAN use USB flash drives, but really, I think this is a step back and quite archaic in design to say the least when we are all used to having mobile phones and cloud storage solutions where no one has to worry about deleting a thing.

If anything the Genos 2 provided an opportunity for Yamaha to also go down the cloud route. You buy the expensive machine and log in with a Yamaha account. Anything you record can then be downloaded from a Yamaha website portal or app so no longer needs to be physically transferred to a computer, they are always backed up, unlimited storage etc. etc.

Andrew - I'm considering acquiring a Genos to complement my Motif XF8, having never used an arranger keyboard before.  And I'm at the moment totally open to acquiring either the old or new model.  So I have read with interest these comments about the somewhat odd decision by Yamaha to downsize the memory capabilities of the Genos 2.   For someone in my position,  what is the practical significance of this?   Is this something that someone should be concerned about - i.e. will it impose a real-world limitation to one's use of the Genos in the future?

[EileenL]

15 Gb is still quit a good size for a user section. The thing that takes up most space is recorded WAV files. These can be easily stored on a USB pen drive. I used a 64Gb one on my Genos 1 and it was plenty big enough for all I wanted to be at my finger tips as I stored it permanently in the USB secure port under the keyboard which still left the other two ports for transferring extra content or saving to. For me not a big deal.

[pjd]

For someone in my position,  what is the practical significance of this?   Is this something that someone should be concerned about - i.e. will it impose a real-world limitation to one's use of the Genos in the future?

Excellent question.

The thing that takes up most space is recorded WAV files.

Eileen is spot-on.

I'm kind of split-brained: church and soul/funk/jazz/pop.

The soul/funk/jazz/pop side has a large collection of backing tracks in WAV format. Most of these WAV files started life as MIDI and they are frozen (recorded) to WAV.

The church side is a large collection of choir guide tracks and other projects which I have recorded direct to Genos. I love the sound-on-sound workflow of Audio Multirecord. I can lay down parts on top of parts, including vocals. Working to Genos is so much better than DAW in this aspect -- turn it on, start recording, no buzz-kill.

So, my overall workflow is turn on Genos, play or go to work. Done. One stop shopping. Everything is on the internal Genos USER drive.

I adopted this work style knowing that I had 58GB capacity, which certainly felt endless. So far, I have filled 10GB+. Would I feel cramped at 15GB? Maybe. Certainly it would become a concern sometime in the next five years.

Hope this helps you out -- pj

[Christophermoment]

Excellent question.

Eileen is spot-on.

I'm kind of split-brained: church and soul/funk/jazz/pop.

The soul/funk/jazz/pop side has a large collection of backing tracks in WAV format. Most of these WAV files started life as MIDI and they are frozen (recorded) to WAV.

The church side is a large collection of choir guide tracks and other projects which I have recorded direct to Genos. I love the sound-on-sound workflow of Audio Multirecord. I can lay down parts on top of parts, including vocals. Working to Genos is so much better than DAW in this aspect -- turn it on, start recording, no buzz-kill.

So, my overall workflow is turn on Genos, play or go to work. Done. One stop shopping. Everything is on the internal Genos USER drive.

I adopted this work style knowing that I had 58GB capacity, which certainly felt endless. So far, I have filled 10GB+. Would I feel cramped at 15GB? Maybe. Certainly it would become a concern sometime in the next five years.

Hope this helps you out -- pj

I recall someone (don't recall who) from Yamaha alluding to the fact that it was easier when upgrading from one keyboard to another to have everything stored on USB. I wonder if this is their way of gently encouraging us? Also it does keep costs down, and I know people say it does not save much, but overall everything adds up.

[EileenL]

I have been using a 64Gb USB stick in the compartment under Genos. It stays in there permanently and also acts as a back up to my user.  I have also backed up to my computer.
  I shall put this USB into Genos 2 and just copy what I want from it which will probably only be Registrations and my favourite styles plus Multi pads. I will then insert a new USB3 64Gb stick into the underside and copy what I have saved to my User Plus WAV files as I record them. I also make sure everything is in folders so content is easy to find.

[Danny1972]

Yes I am going to stick a 256gb USB underneath and not worry about it at all. Didn't the Tyros5 have 250gb HD included? I think I must have used around 10gb max.

The only thing I will say I do agree with the principle of why reduce the storage over the new model without compensating it in another way, that is pretty strange, like for example add a MicroSD slot at least. Nevermind!

[DerekA]

Is it still the case that if you put a USB underneath, and on the back,  it's not possible to guarantee which one gets allocated USB1 and which gets USB2? Has that been fixed in G2?

[Arpeggio]

Is it still the case that if you put a USB underneath, and on the back,  it's not possible to guarantee which one gets allocated USB1 and which gets USB2? Has that been fixed in G2?

The manual mentions the following re USB drives

PAGE 23

NOTICE
Make sure to keep the number
of connected USB flash drives
to [USB TO DEVICE] terminals
one or less before turn on the
instrument. For details, refer to
page 115.

PAGE 115
If two or more USB flash drives are connected to the three
[USB TO DEVICE] terminals when the instrument is turned
on, the drive letters of those drives will be random. This
results in non-reproducible file paths such as for Registration
Memory and Playlist, and the data will not work properly.

Is this what you are referring to?

[AndrewKeyz]

Sure, at least there is USB and some may not care as long as there is a solution.
I would have preferred Micro SD but since I'm not going to get a Genos 2 it doesn't matter anyway.

In my opinion USB is increasingly considered an old fashioned approach of moving files across and also for long term storage when we don't need to consider this on almost any other device these days.

The new Montage increased memory size. Why has the Genos 2 been left behind? I don't believe the costs would matter that much in this day.
The Montage M advert:

[PRESET WAVE AND FLASH MEMORY UPGRADE] MONTAGE M offers twice the memory over its predecessor with an increase from 5.67GB to 9.97GB of Preset Wave memory, and an increase from 1.75 to 3.8GB of User flash memory. Plus, you'll find a host of new sounds and instruments, including pianos, orchestral instruments, drums, and more!

Going backwards is... well going backwards.

Additionally, I would have liked to have seen Yamaha move to an eco system where with a log in you have access to your recordings from cloud storage and certainly not reduce physical storage on their flagship arranger. And also do away with YEM.
But considering the poor website Yamaha has I guess this is a long way off.

[DerekA]

Is this what you are referring to?

Yes, it's a shame that's not been fixed. Means you can't really keep more than one usb permanently attached.

[EileenL]

If you only have one USB stick plugged in that will always read USB1 and whilst the keyboard is on adding another USB will then read USB2 and Another will read USB3.
  That's fine but if you then Switch off and leave the two USB sticks front and back in, when you switch on next the USB in the front port will be USB1. If you want the USB plugged into the underside to always read USB1 then always remove the other sticks before you switch of.