Second Genos 2 teaser reveals very little ...

[valimaties]

A response like this to Mike's post isn't helpful to me, because it contains no information, just an unverifiable statement.

Could you please share what your opinion is, so I understand your world better? Are you saying that the pro market is way bigger than the home players market in your part of the globe? Or did you mean something else?

Thanks,


Maarten

Unverifiable? There are a couple of users here that don't use Genos only at home, so in my opinion this is not ONLY "home users". I didn't say that we are Professionals, but I said I'm not a home user. I don't know what you understand by saying "home users", but I understand that I buy something and use it only at my home, just for me, for my pleasure. I use my keyboards to play at parties, I set all my styles to be able to play with my live band, I don't use it only at home, but also on a lot of other events. So I'm not considering myself a home user. Maybe when Genos 5 will be released I will cannot do the job I do right now, and I will play only for me at home, I could call myself a home user but I will deffinetelly cannot name my instruments as a "home user instruments".
I hope I made myself clear with my affirmations.

BTW, are we free to speak here, or must we say only what some people accept?  I already said that we are not robots, we are humans and we MUST be able to have different opinions, also.

Regards,
Vali

[EileenL]

Who cares about home and pro players anyway.
Some home players can be better than some pro's and vice -versa.
The quality of today's arrangers is great and at the end of the day if the music sounds good it is.
Players should put expression and love into their music and then you are talking.
Roll on Genos 2 and get on the Hellbound Train and rock!!! no matter what level you are on. "Keep Huffin & Puffin'

Agree 100%

[anandmaloo]

My two cents

Though it absolutely makes no difference to me whether Genos was made for Home players or professionals, and I love my Genos, I have to admit that I have never seen a Yamaha Keyboard on stage, in INDIA. I have seen many brands, but never a Yamaha. If at all, they were very cheap models for very very low end gigs. Never ever a Genos or a Tyros. I think, people from India in this forum can vouch for that.

Having said that, it absolutely makes no difference to me, and neither I am bothered in any way.

Regards

Anand
Mumbai, India

[DerekA]

BTW, are we free to speak here, or must we say only what some people accept?  I already said that we are not robots, we are humans and we MUST be able to have different opinions, also.

Vali, if you go back and read carefully, you will see that in your "disagree 100%" comment you were, in effect, saying that MORE arranger players in your part of the world use their keyboards outside the home than inside. It wasn't about whether ANY people do, which of course we know they do.

[valimaties]

I have to say that I want to stop this discussion here because it goes nowhere. 

Regards,
Vali

[maartenb]

Thanks for your explanation, Vali.

Mike states that most keyboards are being used by people who play for themselves, in their home.

The rest of the keyboards are therefore used for other things, like performances, demonstrations, paid and unpaid gigs, teaching and studio work.

Your usage of a keyboard falls in the second category. My usage is mixed: 60% home use, and 40% giving workshops.

You know a couple of people who use their keyboards to perform. But I think it's safe to say that probably the most people play for themselves and their close relatives.


BTW, I didn't say anything to limit your speech. If you got that impression from my post then I can tell you that was not my intention. I asked for your view on the matter.


Maarten

[valimaties]

@marteenb, I've sent you a PM, is better to talk off-topic things in PMs or create specific threads. 

Regards,
Vali

[Lee Batchelor]

Here's my thoughts on the split between home players and professional players.

The "professional player" terminology is vague and often misleading. Suppose Peter Baartmans was independently wealthy and simply chose to play for Yamaha for free because he loves the job. Is he no longer a professional player because he's not being paid? I think not!! There is a connotation to the word "professional." It's not only about being paid. It implies an advanced ability level, which exceeds most home players. Hence, we're better to use terms such as "home players" and "stage players."

Yamaha basically replaced their dual manual organ series with portable keyboards, starting with the early PSR series. They improved these keyboards so much that they now satisfy the home and stage players. A stage player is likely to use advanced level functions, whereas the home player may take time to evolve that far – sometimes never, which is fine. Home players can still enjoy their music even when using a mere 5% of the Genos' capabilities.

So Yamaha has done it right. They've catered to both markets in one keyboard. They even went a step further by introducing a lesser model for each Tyros and now Genos products. I am a 100% stage player. The only home playing I do is learning new tunes and practicing. I seldom play for pleasure at home. I'll likely invest in Genos 2 but know that home players on this forum will delight in the Genos 2 as much as I will – just at a different level. I also know there are many home players out there who could make me sound like a rank amateur !!

[ton37]

Why is it 'necessary' to try to simplify it so that there are only 2 types of keyboard players? Why do you want to make that distinction, when in fact it is simply incorrect? Once again people/groups are tried to be put into boxes. Then you quickly get 'them' and 'us' thinking, with the associated 'invented' qualifications with all the consequences that entails.
The keyboard is a piece of dead matter, it has no soul, conscience or feeling and does not choose anything... but humans do 

[usaraiya]

Here are my 2 cents:

1) All of us are Keyboard Players.
2) We all have varying levels of expertise.
3) The levels of expertise are Dynamic & are constantly changing with time.
4) All of us want an improved instrument, but the enthusiasm is directly proportional to available finances; i.e., if cost were NO factor, ALL of us would be getting the new model.
5) Those who opt to keep the older model, stating that "it does all I want it to do" or "I don't need the newer features," do so as a result of rationalization.

[ton37]

LOL,
1.?
2. agree
3. agree
4. ?
5. ?
Adding:
6. A number of readers (including me) are curiously waiting for the 3rd teaser of the Genos2. 

[Hawklord]

This is my view on the home/professional topic.
Home user (which is me) funds the Genos themselves and only plays the keyboard in their home for their own pleasure and maybe to family members and friends occasionally.
Professional player is someone who also funds the Genos themselves and plays the keyboard in their own home for their own pleasure, but also plays it at gigs, functions etc with or without a band and gets paid for their services which gets them a payback for the original outlay. It's no difference to playing darts for example, you can be a home player playing on your own or with friends or you can be a professional darts player touring the world getting paid for winning, both options using the same set of darts. 
At the end of the day the Genos 2 will be sold to anyone who orders it regardless of how they use it and I for one will be ordering it simply because it is the latest model even though I probably only use 25% of the capabilities of my Genos 1.  As I was told sometime ago "You only live once and shrouds don't have pockets".

[J. Larry]

I guess I'm an ugly ducking, an outcast.  Home player or professional?  Where do I fit in?  Didn't even know this was an issue, until seeing this thread.  Really, it's sort of humorous.  I create my own backing tracks into wav files, with a Yamaha arranger, to solo on guitar, with vocals.  Some gigs are paid, many are not, since I do a lot of charity gigs.  Wonder, should I stay awake fretting over this issue? 

[mikf]

Of course all these labels like 'pro' or 'home user' can be made to look silly, because there are so many shades of grey. And in the music world, the spread of competence, specific interests  and knowledge is massive. Your old auntie and Max Verstappen can both be described as car drivers... but there the similarity ends.
Because it does matter what your core market is and trying to satisfy the whole spectrum of users can end up satisfying no-one.
When I see people ask for very esoteric features in arrangers like seamless communication to Cubase, or umpteen channels for styles, I ask myself to what % of buyers does this actually matter  - maybe 2 or 3% - and who is paying for it? Well, its not just that 2 or 3%, its all of us whether we use it or not. And that is the dilemma for manufacturers like Yamaha. At what point do these additional features add enough cost, or system intimidation for the very people that are your core, that it loses more than it gains. That's the main issue for technology driven corporations. There is never a shortage of 'improvement ideas' ......the problem is selecting which are commercially attractive.

Mike

[pjd]

I have to say that I want to stop this discussion here because it goes nowhere. 

Regards,
Vali

I'm with Vali, here. Unless one of us has worked in Yamaha marketing and have seen for-real market data about the number of X, Y, Z users and their prioritized "wants", then statements are simply personal opinion.

You're free to express your opinion, of course.

Respectfully, pj

[mikf]

Opinions and not full data backed conclusions maybe, but not necessarily completely uninformed opinions either. Because there is data out there that we can all see for ourselves. Like how often do you see arrangers played in public by pros or semi pros, how often have you seen an arranger being played by a band or entertainer on tv? How many are used in commercial recording studios - probably none. Even the demographics of this forum.
And then there are very informed people like Mark who work in keyboard retail, or Andy who worked on design of these instruments.  Everything points to the fact that these instruments are largely acquired by older people who are either virtual beginners or median level players that want to improve, make music, and have fun. Let's not kid ourselves, playing straightforward melody, single fingered chords and playing in one key, does not take a lot of talent. Nor is it all that impressive - except maybe to the player themself, for whom making any kind of recognizable music is a victory.
That doesn't mean that there are not some very talented musicians who may use and produce amazing results on arrangers. Just that they are not the majority. I went to the restaurant in Shreveport where our late member and friend Don Mason played, and he was great. He was a very competent player, good vocalist and hugely experienced entertainer. Customers loved it. Using the arranger as a OMB allowed Don to make a nice living as a musician.
But also have seen an arranger played on tv just once - by a guy who entered America has Talent. He was obviously from the median level player group, no vocals, just instrumentals, and he got slaughtered. And rightly so because it was embarrassingly awful.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Why is it 'necessary' to try to simplify it so that there are only 2 types of keyboard players? Why do you want to make that distinction, when in fact it is simply incorrect? Once again people/groups are tried to be put into boxes. Then you quickly get 'them' and 'us' thinking, with the associated 'invented' qualifications with all the consequences that entails.
The keyboard is a piece of dead matter, it has no soul, conscience or feeling and does not choose anything... but humans do 

Nobody is simplifying anything. This thread and most others on this entire forum have used these two types of player descriptions, which probably make up 99% of the group. There are of course subsets for each of the two main categories.

[pjd]

Opinions and not full data backed conclusions maybe, but not necessarily completely uninformed opinions either.

Hi Mike --

We're all colleagues, here, and I respect different points of view, including (and not limited to!) the folks you mention in your reply.

Bottom-line tho', it's still opinion. After years of making "feature-in, feature-out" decisions as an engineering manager, hard data made the most convincing arguments. And, unfortunately, Yamaha have the hard data and surely are not going to expose their hand to competitors.

Immanuel Kant might have something to say about the nature of personal observation (and its limitations). 

Anyway, I don't mean offense or disrespect to any one.

All the best and good health -- pj

[Gunnar Jonny]

But also have seen an arranger played on tv......

Take a look at Leonard Cohen and Technics KN live at stage. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nceRfJJZcP4

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Case solved!!

[valimaties]

Not even, but let's say that it is 
It's enough, really!