The spec of the new genos?

[musicman100]

Hi,

I have just seen the new spec of the new montage. The last genos used the same chips of the old monatage so do you think this will carry over to the new genos?

    The 5.67 Gb of preset waveform memory on the original MONTAGE has been increased to 9.97 Gb.  The 1.75 Gb of internal user memory has been increased to 3.8 Gb.  This massive memory allows for deeply detailed samples creating impressive new sounds!
    The MONTAGE M is the next generation with THREE sound engines included.  The AWM2 engine has been refined even further ton provide high definition emulative sounds like piano, strings, and drums.
    The AWM2 and FM-X are now complimented with a NEW AN-X sound engine that re-creates the sound and behavior of an analog synthesizer.  This engine provides the warm, classic sound and behavior of an analog synthesizer.
    The polyphony of these three engines has been increased to 400 notes (128 AWM2 preset, 128 AWM2 user, 128 FM-X, and 16 AN-X)!
    The MONTAGE M is rounded out with an upgraded pure analog circuit that reduces noise and improves the dynamic range, crosstalk, low-frequency phase, and distortion rate, resulting in clearer sound at all volumes.  The sound has more detailed low-mids and presence than the previous circuit.



    The MONTAGE M8X (88-key model) features a NEW GEX action with Polyphonic Aftertouch.  The GEX action provides enhanced key repetition behavior that is typically found on grand pianos.
    The MONTAGE M8X action is elevated with the use of Polyphonic Aftertouch, which was a control feature that was offered in the legendary Yamaha CS-80 and DX-1 synthesizers.  It allows players to individually modulate held notes with additional pressure.
    The MONTAGE M adds new performance controls with a five segment ribbon controller, a new keyboard HOLD button for sustaining chords while using knobs to edit, and a Portamento on/off button and dedicated time knob.   These features all make the MONTAGE M even better when performing live.

    AWM2, FM-X, and AN-X sound engines
    128 element AWM2 architecture for higher definition sound
    Pure Analog Circuit 2 for clear harmonic reproduction and even frequency response         
    7" TFT Full color wide VGA LCD touch display screen with streamlined workflow
    512 x 64 pixel LCD quick edit display screen
    Super knob (or assigned expression pedal) allows the control of eight real-time parameters with one motion
    9.97 Gb of internal waveform memory
    400 note total polyphony with 128 notes for AWM2 presets, 128 notes for AWM2 user memory, 128 notes for FM-X, and 16 notes for AN-X
    3.8 Gb of internal flash memory for custom samples or synth library downloads
    Virtual Circuitry Modeling (VCM) recreates the sound and behavior of vintage effects and signal processors
    Send 32-channels and receive 6-channels of audio and send 16-channels of MIDI through a single USB cable
    "Live Set" allows for easy organization and access of most used performance voices
    "Seamless Sound Switching" allows changing performances instantly without any cut-off in envelopes and effects
    Modeless operation ensures all modifications to performance voices can be made quick and easy
    8 faders and rotary encoders allow deep real-time control editing
    Integrated 16-track sequencer and performance recorder
    Full metal chassis with IEC power supply

[soundphase]

"Seamless Sound Switching" allows changing performances instantly without any cut-off in envelopes and effects

I hope the Genos II (and its childs) won't be the last one to take profit from SSS.

[maartenb]

Honestly, I consider "The spec of the new genos?" a click-bait title and the answer is: No, these are the specs of the Montage M.

Can we derive anything from the Montage M to the specs of the Genos II?

Hardly, but we'll probably get more wave memory, more user memory. That doesn't say much.

We'll see.


Maarten

[musicman100]

Have you not seen this site. The Montage share a lot of the same  circuitry.

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-montage-sample-compression/

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-montage-internals-revisted/

Very interesting reading!!

[maartenb]

I know, and I regularly read pj's excellent website.

Even if the two instruments share a lot of the hardware technology, they are designed with different users and purposes in mind. Their software is different. I wouldn't be able to guess what the Genos (1) can do based on the Montage (1).

Since you think they are so similar, what do you think will carry over to the Genos II?


Maarten

[DerekA]

Honestly, I consider "The spec of the new genos?" a click-bait title and the answer is: No, these are the specs of the Montage M.
Can we derive anything from the Montage M to the specs of the Genos II?

Totally agree Maarten. For example, MODX and Montage contain the FM-X engine running on the same type of processor as the Genos I. And Genos I does not have FM-X.

I'm not sure what to expect from Genos II. It's 50-50 if it will just be an evolution (more voices, styles, adaptive styles, bluetooth) or contain something genuinely new.

[hans1966]

Hello Guys, certainly Montage and Genos, they are in different categories for different uses.

The only thing I think Genos could inherit from Montage are some sound samples such as: Piano, Strings, Choirs,Pads,Synthezisers, Winds, Brass and Drums.

Just my opinion

Hans

[mikf]

Does anyone actually care about these technical specs anyway?
How does it sound, how does the keyboard feel, how easy is it to play and operate, have they improved some or all of the things people don't like - seamless voice switching etc. These are what the vast majority will think about when buying.  Not the architecture or the sound chips used. We are interested in the result, not how they did it.
Mike

[Tommy 73]

Does anyone actually care about these technical specs anyway?
How does it sound, how does the keyboard feel, how easy is it to play and operate, have they improved some or all of the things people don't like - seamless voice switching etc. These are what the vast majority will think about when buying.  Not the architecture or the sound chips used. We are interested in the result, not how they did it.
Mike

Speak for yourself...

I am also a avid reader of PJ's analysis all things technical

[soundphase]

It's the same with cars.

You can like cars only because you see them
You can like cars only because you drive them
You can like cars only because you like the engine ...

or both ...

[Amwilburn]

Hi,

I have just seen the new spec of the new montage. The last genos used the same chips of the old Montage so do you think this will carry over to the new genos?
"

Chips, not sound library. The sound library of the Montage, other than the absolutely amazing pianos, is almost completely from T4/T5 (a lot of overlap between those 2), not Genos. I *do* think the new montage will carry a lot of sounds from the current Genos, though, but I hope they don't put the better piano on the Montage only (yes, the Montage piano actually used 4 patches to make the voice, not a single patch, but hey, ensemble mode uses 4 patches to make one 'sound', so it's feasible)

Keep in mind I have them setup near each other in our store, and I go through patches and compare 1 by 1. I do this with every new keyboard and electronic drum kit that comes in.

Actually, I'll walk that back a little bit; the Montage appeared over 2 years before the Genos, so of course it couldn't use the Genos sound library; but this time since the Montage M is actually appearing first, they *could* put some of that into the Genos successor. I really hope Yamaha doesn't shortchange the piano on the Genos again!

Mark

[pjd]

Thanks for all the complimentary comments about the Web site!   

I'm taking the leaked Montage M specs with a large grain of salt. Some things don't add up for me -- possibly due to transcription errors by the dealer? We will know the actual Montage M (and GENOS II/GENOS 2) specs soon enough. Including the breathtaking prices... 

All the best and thanks for reading -- pj

Music technology blog: sandsoftwaresound.net

[Amwilburn]

Well, your website *is* pretty awesome!

Mark

[pjd]

Chips, not sound library.

Keep in mind I have them setup near each other in our store, and I go through patches and compare 1 by 1. I do this with every new keyboard and electronic drum kit that comes in.

Actually, I'll walk that back a little bit; the Montage appeared over 2 years before the Genos, so of course it couldn't use the Genos sound library;

Yep, Montage, Genos, PSR-SX, MODX all share technology -- the same tone generator ICs (SWP and SWX). And guess what? You might as well put CLP, CVP and CSP on that list, too. Oh, yeah, and stage CP/YC. Don't forget Reface YC and CP. Yamaha applies (and amortizes) the same tone generator ICs across almost all of its keyboard product lines.

As Mark points out, much software and waveform content is also shared across mid- to upper-end keyboard products. Software is a HUGE differentiator along with keybed and front panel gizmos.

As to Genos vs. Montage/MODX waveforms, I built a bunch of diff tables to see what's new. Sometimes the synth line is a little bit ahead, sometimes the TOTL arranger is a little bit ahead. Yamaha is continuously sampling and doing sound design. It's a rolling process and they trickle out new waveforms/voices when they are good and ready.

Genos/PSR-SX and Montage/MODX are voiced differently for different ends (musical purposes). Like Mark, I've compared synth vs. arranger going back to MOX and PSR-S950. There are definite "one-for-ones".

I forgot to buy coffee filters yesterday and I'm seriously under-caffeinated -- pj 

[p$manK32]

Yep, Montage, Genos, PSR-SX, MODX all share technology -- the same tone generator ICs (SWP and SWX)....
I forgot to buy coffee filters yesterday and I'm seriously under-caffeinated -- pj 

PJ,
Yeah that's tough, always keep a stash of backup coffee filters.

Related to your comments about the shared tone generators, I still read your quote (below) from your response to my post a while back about muddy voices in the lower registers on SX900. It sort of explains a lot, having had the MODX and now the SX900.

Rich


"I own and play both MODX and Genos. I've also crawled through the voice programming on both. There are genuine differences between the two instruments. Sometimes the sound designer added samples from a related instrument to fill out the bottom (or top) range. One example may be double reeds where bassoon fills out the bottom below the natural range for an oboe. (Cello and violin -- the same.) I'd like to say that Yamaha does this consistently, but they do not! The MODX "Bassoon 3" voice has bassoon, oboe, clarinet and flute waveforms! The blend can be made using the AWM2 Amplitude Scale parameters which breaks the note range into five subranges and assigns an amplitude level offset to each subrange. Yes, you get the ability to edit Amplitude Scale on a synth. YEM, nope."

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
With all this talk of Modex amd Montage the simple idea for me was to get Samplerobot on my computer and convert to Sf2.
You cannot go wrong with the Genos combined with Cubase 12.
The only downfall of the Genos is that Samples take nearly all of it's memory for a decent sample.
I did a choir with women and men for my Mr Blue Sky cover and the sample was 100%
If Genos had a bigger memory for samples or a sample format that keeps the memory down without losing quality then it is Genos forever.

[Tommy 73]

Thanks for all the complimentary comments about the Web site!   

I'm taking the leaked Montage M specs with a large grain of salt. Some things don't add up for me -- possibly due to transcription errors by the dealer? We will know the actual Montage M (and GENOS II/GENOS 2) specs soon enough. Including the breathtaking prices... 

All the best and thanks for reading -- pj

Music technology blog: sandsoftwaresound.net

Same here... they are implying on other froums their is No Poly-AT for M6/7 only M8x... ((((Really?))))

We can only hope this information is incorrect, otherwise Yamaha have just killed the Montage M series for me, and I might have too keep my Montage 7 Mk-1...

Or, are we going to see something similar as an upgrade kit, some time in the future as seen with Korg Nautilus? Now that would be bonkers (!) (Speculation of course)

And like everyone else, I am looking forward too Genos 2 considering much disappointment from Korg after 12+ months with no updates for PA5X (premature release unfortunately)...

GENOS 2 and Montage M will be getting my full attention...

[pjd]

PJ,
Yeah that's tough, always keep a stash of backup coffee filters.

Related to your comments about the shared tone generators, I still read your quote (below) from your response to my post a while back about muddy voices in the lower registers on SX900. It sort of explains a lot, having had the MODX and now the SX900.

Rich


"I own and play both MODX and Genos. I've also crawled through the voice programming on both. There are genuine differences between the two instruments. Sometimes the sound designer added samples from a related instrument to fill out the bottom (or top) range. One example may be double reeds where bassoon fills out the bottom below the natural range for an oboe. (Cello and violin -- the same.) I'd like to say that Yamaha does this consistently, but they do not! The MODX "Bassoon 3" voice has bassoon, oboe, clarinet and flute waveforms! The blend can be made using the AWM2 Amplitude Scale parameters which breaks the note range into five subranges and assigns an amplitude level offset to each subrange. Yes, you get the ability to edit Amplitude Scale on a synth. YEM, nope."

I had four boxes of filters! (24 dB/octave?) A lifetime supply! Then I ran out. Thank goodness for the French press. 

Thanks for posting that example -- pj

[pjd]

The only downfall of the Genos is that Samples take nearly all of it's memory for a decent sample.
I did a choir with women and men for my Mr Blue Sky cover and the sample was 100%

Hi John --

Probably not the best thread to revisit this, but what the heck? I sampled two pipe organs from Genos using SampleRobot and each organ was 128MB each. Note samples taken at roughly 3 to 4 key intervals. I play these organs every week at the church gig.

All the best and have fun -- pj

[Duffy]

Don't know about the spec of Genos 2 but I'm still disappointed about the supposed Hammond Organ in Genos 1.
Have listened today to the Yamaha Reface YC Compact Combo Organ,  priced at £299 which blows the Genos out of the water organ wise.
Time Yamaha gave better value on top end boards.      And yes,  I have told them this.

[pjd]

GENOS 2 and Montage M will be getting my full attention...

Might as well throw SEQTRAK(tm) into the mix. Looks to be a groovebox/control surface, probably integrated with Steinberg software. May have its own synthesizers (2x) and sampler on-board:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/the-other-unicorn-in-the-room/

To be launched with Montage M? After the Steinberg shop comes up, again?

Have a good weekend -- pj

[Amwilburn]

"Seamless Sound Switching" allows changing performances instantly without any cut-off in envelopes and effects

I hope the Genos II (and its childs) won't be the last one to take profit from SSS.

Alas, even the Montage (which launched 2+ years before G1) had seamless sound switching, whereas the G1 didn't get it.
So while I expect the M8x (they've already arrived and sold out, I didn't even get a chance to unbox one) to have SSS, I can only hope the G2 finally does.

Mark

[rattley]

Please continue to discuss the new2 specs here. I am very interested in how these things evolve. I'll just skip over the anything that doesn't interest me.  There's a lot to absorb!  It's a lot of money too. Is there such a thing as good stress??  -charley

[Michael Trigoboff]

We will know the actual Montage M (and GENOS II/GENOS 2) specs soon enough. Including the breathtaking prices... 

Reminds me of an old cartoon:

Waiter presenting the check to people at a fancy French restaurant, saying, "And now, Messieurs et Madames, the specialty of the house."

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Yeah!!  frogs legs and snails!!! or should i say escargot

[maartenb]

I can only hope the G2 finally does [get seamless sound switching].

The Montage's SSS only works for a certain combination of voices, not all.

If the second teaser is saying we get an FM engine in Genos 2, we might get seamless sound switching when we switch from an AWM2 voice to an FM voice.

We'll see.


Maarten

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Maarten

Do you feel the pain of waiting??
We should have got Doc's Flux capacitor and a De Lorean

[maartenb]

I'm very curious, John, yes! However, after the second teaser I decided not to wait anymore. I still keep following the developments and this forum, but I continue with my life.

We'll see what the third teaser in about eight hours will bring. 


Maarten

[DerekA]

The Montage's SSS only works for a certain combination of voices, not all.
If the second teaser is saying we get an FM engine in Genos 2, we might get seamless sound switching when we switch from an AWM2 voice to an FM voice.

I think this shows that SSS is not *quite* such an easy thing to achieve as some people appear to think. And I would not expect FM-X, I was able to get a sound very much like the second trailer from the existing preset voices on my Genos 1.

[musicman100]

Hope it has an intro option where you can play your own chords like the Korg Intro 2 option. ( and ending one)