Cannot Import .n27 Target Instrument

[LaHawk]

Expansion Manager v 2.3.2
PSR SX900 latest update.
Instrument Info .27 Could Not Be Imported.

I have been using  Expansion Manger with the same SX 900, same USB, and same windows 10 computer for years with never a problem.
However I recently completely re-set my PC, and downloaded the newest Expansion Manager with the latest update, installed successfully but I cannot import the target instrument (.27 file).  I tried resaving the .27 file on the keyboard to USB and it's in the root directory of the thumb drive, but when trying to import in Expansion Manger I get a pop up message, "Instrument Info cannot be imported".
The USB thumb drive is fine, previously installed expansion packs work as usual on the keyboard, just can't import the target instrument on a PC.

Any advise would be appreciated.

[BogdanH]

You're using quite old YEM... latest version is 2.9.0 -get it and I'm pretty sure everything will be fine.

Bogdan

[LaHawk]

 Bogdan,
I originally downloaded the wrong version.  Thanks for noticing.
Should my previously installed packs, currently on the keyboard, be viewable in YEM? (I don't see them)
Appreciate your help

[BogdanH]

hi Larry,
I don't have much installed in YEM (max about 10 small custom packs) and so before installing new YEM version, I always make sure that I have YEM content saved somewhere safe. Then I delete packs from YEM, uninstall it and finally I install new YEM version -that way I start YEM "fresh" so to speak.
But I'm quite sure that in case you don't delete packs from YEM (before uninstalling), then they will appear in new YEM version normally.

Bogdan

[ckobu]

Hi Larry,
since you have installed a new Operating System on your computer, you can no longer see the Packages in YEM. They don't exist on your computer and you need to add them back to YEM. Of course you need to have ppf or cpf files to do this. When adding Packs to YEM, you have to pay attention to their order, i.e. to be the same as they are now placed in the keyboard. This is important because Registrations are usually associated with packet positions (LSB number).

[Joe H]

ckobu makes a very important point.  When you reload your packs make sure you assign the same LSB to each pack as they were first assigned and installed on your keyboard.  Otherwise, when you play the styles/registrations, you won't hear any sound.

Joe H

[LaHawk]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Before reformatting my PC I thought I did a great job of backing up all my files and programs except I now realize Registration Manager was not included in that backup. I may assumed (incorrectly) those packs would be loaded with the .27 file info, I should have known better!

So I now have the task of downloading and installing them in the same order as on the keyboard (thanks for that reminder Casper and Joe) because I do indeed use some of those pack files for registrations, not many, but a few. Not a huge undertaking, but never the less time consuming

I assume the first pack listed on the keyboard needs to be the first pack listed in Registration Manager, although I'm not sure what Joe means about assigning the original LSB

So lesson learned. Backup, and backup properly.

[p$manK32]

Unless this has been explained in the past, would someone please explain for us beginners on the SX what YEM pack position order and changing LSB numbers are about?

I've loaded different choices/configureations of expansion voice packs into my keyboard at least 10 different times and never had any issue with my registrations not finding the proper expansion voice, unless I just forgot to include a necessary expansion pack in the install. Everything seems to load in and work automatically.

[Joe H]

Larry,  You can set your keyboard to display the Voice program numbers and LSB and MSB. I'm not sure how it's done on the sx900. That way you can mach the LSB numbers with the packs as they are installed on your sx900.

p$mnaK32, there is an option at the top menu to change the LSB.  Select any pack and click on Change LSB. It will open the pack List in a new screen showing all the packs loaded into YEM and what the LSB is for each pack. you can drag the current pack you have selected to a new LSB position.

When we load packs into YEM, it is a "first come, first served" implementation.  In other words, each pack that is loaded into YEM will automatically be assigned the next available LSB number.  If you delete a pack and reload it into YEM it will most likely be assigned a different LSB number.  I learned this the hard way.  I deleted all my packs one time and reloaded them in YEM and they were all assigned a different LSB number.  I had to do what I suggested to Larry... turn on the Voice number display on my S970 to see what  the LSB numbers were for each pack.  Another way is to look at styles in MixMaster Voice View and see the pack Voice numbers listed there.  Also MixMaster will allow you to assign LSB numbers in styles and Multi Pads to match any changes you made or to play styles and MPs you got from another forum member using the same packs with different LSB numbers. This is done in the Batch Processing screen

Joe H

[BogdanH]

To show/hide MSB-LSB-PC voice values on SX700/900 display:
-touch any of four voices on screen (like you're about to change voice)
-touch Menu icon on screen (on top-right)
-menu will appear, where the last option is Voice number: Show/Hide
This is general setting and if you set to Show, MSB-LSB-PC numbers will be shown on screen above every voice name.

Unless this has been explained in the past, would someone please explain for us beginners on the SX what YEM pack position order and changing LSB numbers are about?

MSB-LSB-PC are voice identifier numbers. When we select some voice on keyboard manually (for LH/RH playing), then this number is irrelevant: the voice you select (by name) will be used -no magic here. But styles (for example) don't select voices by name. Style only contain MSB-LSB-PC value of voice that's needed and that value is used to call the voice.
For example, in some style channel, voice 008-032-18 is used and if we take a look in keyboard DataList, we can see that this is a bass guitar. Here nothing can go wrong, because this is a preset (built-in) voice and it will always have the same MSB-LSB-PC number.
But when custom voices are used (from expansion packs), there can be problem... for example:
I create a single custom piano voice and YEM will automatically assign 063-001-001 value to that voice (btw. 063=custom voice). Now, at the same time someone else created custom flute voice and YEM will assign exactly the same values to that voice. That is, we now have two different voices which originally have the same MSB-LSB-PC values. In keyboard however, each voice must have unique MSB-LSB-PC value.. and YEM takes care of that.
In this example, first voice (piano) that is imported in YEM, will keep the value 063-001-001. But if the next imported voice (flute) has the value that's already taken in YEM, then YEM will automatically assign next free value for it: 063-001-002. Reminder: if we would import flute voice first, then flute voice would have PC value 001.
Now we have a style, which uses that flute voice. When style was created, flute voice had value 063-001-001 and everything was fine. However, next time we export new (changed) pack and install it in keyboard, it's not necessary that flute will have the same number as previously. In short: style will call 063-001-001 voice and play whatever that is (i.e. piano instead of flute) or it can happen there's a silence because voice isn't found.
There's certain logic behind MSB-LSB-PC values (see DataList of your keyboard) and so if certain voice isn't found, keyboard will try to substitute missing voice(s) with "similar" one(s). That is, style will work but it won't sound as intended.

My advice... if possible, use preset (built-in) voices in custom styles -that guarantees that the style will always sound correctly (if used on the same keyboard).
If you use custom voices (or drumkits) in your styles (OTS, registrations) then it's a good practice that you make a short notice about that style. For example:
Style: Spanish eyes
Voice: Guitar-nylon 063-001-006 for Chd1
Voice: Piano CFX 063-001-004 for OTS1
Pedal: Fill Up
....

I'm not sure if all above answers the question (while I try to keep post short), but I hope it clarifies certain things.

Bogdan

[LaHawk]

Wow great responses Joe and Bogdon. Thanks very much. I have pretty much reinstalled all my original packs and back in business. But I'm going to get into it once I check out if registrations have changed.

[p$manK32]

Thanks Joe and Bogdan. MSB-LSB-PC numbers is a lot to digest for me right now, since I haven't had the need to focus on them so far. Two follow-up questions:

1. I thought Styles only worked with preset voices. You can use expansion voices when editing or creating Styles?

2. So far I have created 16 banks of registrations. None of the altered Styles in these registrations contain expansion voices, so I guess I am good with the voice identifier issue there. However, many of these registrations do use expansion voices in LH1, RH1-3. So Bogdan my question really is about expansion voices used in LH, RH, not expansion voices used in Styles. Am I concluding correctly that if I keep loading in different YEM pack configurations in the SX900, that at some point the expansion voice identifiers will be re-ordered/re-assigned and my registrations will not find the proper expansion voices? I am careful to always load in the expansion voices I know I am using in the registrations, but it sounds like any changed YEM pack configuration loaded in might change the order and possibly break the registration link to the expansion voice?? I've loaded in at least 10 different YEM pack configurations so far and haven't been aware of this voice identifier problem so far. Or maybe the expansion voice links are broken and I haven't noticed it yet. I hope my question is clear.

Rich

[DerekA]

Each expansion pack within the YEM data has its own LSB number. Alll the voices from the pack will have this LSB number. The LSB number must be in the range 0-255.

YEM will assign one when you create a new pack, but in the Pack Edit menu you can assign your own.

The trick is to make sure that you don't change the LSB number you assigned to a pack in the past.

I believe that the Yamaha packs each have a unique LSB number. But it's possible to get clashes from your own / third party packs.

[overover]

Hi all,

The problem described, that packs get different LSBs when re-imported into the YEM and that (e.g.) Registrations or Styles can no longer find the expansion voices originally used, primarily affects self-created packs and packs from third-party manufacturers. These Voices use Custom Voice addresses beginning with MSB 063 (Custom Normal Voices) or MSB 062 (Custom Drum Voices), followed by the LSB number (000 - 127) and the Program Change number (in Yamaha counting 001 - 128).

If such a pack in the YEM gets a different LSB, Registrations and Styles that are outside of the respective pack whose voices they use will no longer work correctly. In other words, if you add Registrations and/or Styles to the (not protected) PACK whose Voices they use, it doesn't matter if such packs later get a different LSB, because importing a Pack automatically adjusts the included Registrations and Styles, i.e. the LSB of Custom Voice addresses (MSB 63 and 62) is automatically changed to the current Pack LSB.

However, most of the Voices in Yamaha Expansion Packs have FIXED Voice Addresses, i.e. outside the Custom Voice range of MSB 63 and 62. Such Expansion Voices are comparable to Preset Voices, and here it doesn't matter which "LSB" the pack currently has (because In this case, this "LSB" has nothing to do with the actual voice numbers, but is only used for internal numbering in the YEM.

But note: For reasons I don't know, there are also Yamaha packs that contain Voices with Custom Voice addresses (MSB 63/62) in addition to the Voices with FIXED addresses mentioned. And with SUCH packs, of course, you have the mentioned problems with external Registrations and Styles.

I therefore generally recommend documenting the LSB assignment of the packs in the YEM (by screenshots of the "Change Bank Select LSB" window and notes from which packs voices are used in Registrations, Styles, Multi Pads and/or MIDI files). This way, you later will be able to move the packs in question back to the "correct" LSBs if they have to be re-imported into the YEM for some reason.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[p$manK32]

In other words, if you add Registrations and/or Styles to the (not protected) PACK whose Voices they use, it doesn't matter if such packs later get a different LSB, because importing a Pack automatically adjusts the included Registrations and Styles, i.e. the LSB of Custom Voice addresses (MSB 63 and 62) is automatically changed to the current Pack LSB.

Chris,
I think I understand everything you wrote, except for the above long sentence. Is it possible to re-phrase it? And what is a "not protected" pack?

I am creating a lot of sound combo registrations and song registrations, many of them do use 3rd party voices primarily from purchased CMS, Playsounds, and EasySounds packs. I guess I am surprised and disappointed to find out that all the creative work I am doing with voice selection can be obliterated simply by loading in a new expansion grouping. I'll document the packs as you advise.

Thanks

Rich

[overover]

... In other words, if you add Registrations and/or Styles to the (not protected) PACK whose Voices they use, it doesn't matter if such packs later get a different LSB, because importing a Pack automatically adjusts the included Registrations and Styles, i.e. the LSB of Custom Voice addresses (MSB 63 and 62) is automatically changed to the current Pack LSB. ...

Chris,
I think I understand everything you wrote, except for the above long sentence. Is it possible to re-phrase it? And what is a "not protected" pack?

I am creating a lot of sound combo registrations and song registrations, many of them do use 3rd party voices primarily from purchased CMS, Playsounds, and EasySounds packs. I guess I am surprised and disappointed to find out that all the creative work I am doing with voice selection can be obliterated simply by loading in a new expansion grouping. I'll document the packs as you advise.

Thanks

Rich

Hi Rich,

"not protected", "non-protected" or "unprotected" packs are in PPF (.ppf) format. That can be self-created packs, packs purchased directly from Easy Sounds, free CMS packs, older paid CMS packs and Yamaha packs that are available in non-protected PPF format (this includes many older Yamaha packs, but also some newer ones).

You can change PPF packs as desired (e.g. edit voices in YEM, add your own Registrations or Styles directly to the pack whose voices they use) and then re-save the pack in PPF format. As mentioned above, Registrations or Styles included in the pack will always work, no matter what LSB the pack currently has. Normally, however, you will only add your own Registrations to a specific pack in exceptional cases (rather manage all your own Registrations together, e.g. on a USB stick).

Most newer Yamaha packs as well as e.g. newer paid CMS packs are in "protected" ("encrypted") CPF (.cpf) format. The user cannot make any changes to these packs, and they only work with one specific keyboard model (e.g. only on SX900) or (in the case of third-party manufacturers) even only with one specific instrument (for whose Instrument Info file they were purchased).

In principle, you can always leave all imported packs in YEM. If you only deselect certain packs in YEM and select others to create a new Pack Install file (.cpi/.ppi), the original LSB of the packs will never change. But it can still happen that packs have to be re-imported into the YEM. And this is where you should have documentation of the original LSB assignment to be able to move the packs back if needed.


Best regards,
Chris

[p$manK32]

Thank you Chris! So the issue is only when packs have to be re-imported into YEM. Then I should be fine on the voice identifiers. But this is good to know for sure if I ever need to re-import packs into YEM. Trying to learn as much as I can.

Rich

[ckobu]

Here is another piece of information for all those following this thread. If we want to install a new operating system on the computer or if we are switching to a new computer, we can make a complete backup of the YEM content beforehand. In this case, all Packs will be in the correct place and manual entry will not be necessary.
Watch this video, turn on English subtitles.

https://youtu.be/PmqB_FtxapQ

[LaHawk]

 I still can't believe I overlooked backing up YEM before wiping my PC clean. However I would have just saved the packs I had from desktop to a backup drive and would not have done the complete process your video shows.Funny thing is I remember seeing this video before, well not really funny. Live and learn, I'm going to back up now as you never know when the hard drive will fail  (I have a 128G external SSD drive for backups)

Casper thanks for the valuable video, and you're correct, Yamaha should have a YEM backup button.