Do we really need complicated keyboards

[Oldden]

I've looked at a lot of the reply's about various keyboards mentioned on this site and others. What I'm saying do we really need so many knobs, sliders, touch screens and the rest to enjoy music. I realise that we gets loads of styles, voices and the rest , but are we becoming just knob twirler's instead of musicians. In the past I've enjoyed playing an old upright, and slightly out of tune piano at a local pub probably just as much as I enjoy playing on my Genos. The point I'm try to make probably, is that once music was a communal thing, family singing at Christmas and the rest, but it's now it's putting on a show for and audience either sitting in rows or at a table. Maybe or more likely it's just me getting old ,I'm in my late seventies and I can't remember when I and whichever girlfriend at the time last danced to a live band. We seem to have lost the communal side of music or is it just me.

[BogdanH]

About just pushing buttons... it depends. Buttons are there to be used OR not. It happens a lot of times, that I just set to piano voice that I like and spend the whole time playing only on it. But if it happens I get a "creativity moment" (not that often really), then it sure is great to have options available -is a reason why I decided for arranger keyboard.
And I agree about (dancing on) "live" music nowadays.. live bands have been replaced by DJ's and young people seem to enjoy what they hear -go figure 
Yeah, I can remember local bands playing at hotel/restaurant on terrace.. they were far from "perfect", but they were authentic -and that matters.

Bogdan

[Rick D.]

Oldden,

I tend to agree with you,  but at the same time making things easier for beginners gets more people playing.
I do enjoy sitting at the piano with no fancy knobs or buttons though!

Rick D.

[GregB]

It's just a tool; 90% is in the heart, mind, and skill of the musician.

My PSR-520 was much less sophisticated than my PSR-S950, yet I used it for 18 years in church worship bands, including for 8 years when I was in rotation every 3-4 weeks at a church of 3,500 people.  (yes, there were skeptics -- initially!)

That said, I ended up using more sounds and features on that PSR-520 in a live worship service than I ever expected, and I do find the tools and features on an arranger workstation quite useful.  And the S950 vastly improved on the 520.

Do I need something more than a piano?  Honestly, no.  But it's useful, and I'll gladly enjoy the opportunity to play it.

- Greg

[travlin-easy]

I don't find them complicated, however, there is a learning curve involved, just like your PC, Smart Phone, and the latest cars.

Gary 

[pjd]

I've looked at a lot of the reply's about various keyboards mentioned on this site and others. What I'm saying do we really need so many knobs, sliders, touch screens and the rest to enjoy music.

Hello Oldden --

I've had one-on-one discussions with various Yamaha synth marketing people. They would actually agree with you! Many musicians -- potential customers -- are apprehensive or turned-off by the apparent complexity of modern keyboards, synths and arranger keyboards alike. A potential customer sees all of those buttons, etc. in the store and walks away baffled -- and a sale is lost.

For everyday use, I mostly sit down and play -- no styles, backing tracks, etc. I enjoy the quality of the Genos instruments. Lately, I dip more into the MIDI and audio recording features finding them to be more convenient to use than Cubase.

As an example, I spent over 20 minutes today in Cubase trying to figure out why MIDI wasn't going to a software instrument and no sound was coming out. Genos, I turn it on and play, generally bug free.

Part of learning PSR-S950 then and Genos now, is learning what is important to me and how to selectively ignore the rest. 

All the best to ya -- pj

[Joe H]

Oldden,

The answer to your question is YES.  The reason being Yamaha have to build a "one size fits all" keyboard.  As stated above, just use the features you need and are comfortable with.  Some people find there aren't enough features. 

"To each his own"!

Joe H

[travlin-easy]

One of the main problems is most users/owners are not willing to take the to read the user manual, which, unfortunately, is very poorly written and difficult to understand. However, if you sit down with the manual, side by side with the keyboard, and go through all the features, step by step, you will discover the greatest instrument ever made. Granted, this will take some time, but in the end, the effort is well worth it. Eventually, you will be able to do things that you never dreamed of doing.

Now, if you really don't want to use all those wonderful features that are available to you in this complex package, I guess you should have purchased an electric piano or old time organ. Even the newer organs are equally as complex as the high end arranger keyboards, but don't have the ability to do what a mid range arranger keyboard can do.

Take the time to learn the features of your arranger keyboard - you will be amazed at what you can accomplish in just a single day of learning.

Good luck,

Gary

[SciNote]

Another thing to consider is that Yamaha makes more than just the Genos.  Don't need the complexity of the Genos?  There's the PSR-E473/EW425, SX600, SX700, and SX900 to choose from!  Not to mention digital pianos like the DGX-670 and the various synths that are available.  I use a PSR-E433 (predecessor to the E473), which meets my needs very well.  I pair it with a Roland Gaia synth, and that combo let's me create just about any sound I want!

I do agree that complexity in an instrument can make a keyboardist feel more like a computer programmer than a musician, and I think that's one of the reasons that analog synthesizers, as well as digital synths with analog-style control, have made such a comeback.  Direct control over the sound source (oscillators), sound modifiers (filters), sound shaping (envelope generators), and modulation like vibrato, tremolo, and wah-wah (LFO's) for an intuitive way to create sounds.

[Robert van Weersch]

The perception of complexity of a keyboard depends per person. I'm a software engineer myself, and I really like to have options to tweak every digital bit of my instrument. But I also want it to be easily usable during gigs or jam sessions, because at that time, I want to make music and not just turning nobs or pushing buttons. So I can really enjoy spending an entire Sunday afternoon tweaking sound and registrations, but I also love making music with fellow musicians, just using presets I created on said Sunday.

[casiokid]

At the end of the day, playing a song with a good melody far outweighs the benefit of complicated keyboard features

[Graham UK]

I sold my top of range arranger and purchased the DGX670 which I enjoy just as much.
The saying goes (KISS) KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID...Less can be more.

[colas musique]

Hello,

You have to live with the times, not be backward by saying "it was better before" and be aware of your own abilities before making a purchase.

This goes for everything: if I can't drive a Ferrari, I'll buy a simpler engine.

Happy New Year
Christian

[DrakeM]

Maybe or more likely it's just me getting old

Exactly, you nailed it.

I have two nephews (brothers) that play music. One plays lead guitar in a rock band, the other is learning the piano. I got together with the one learning the piano last summer and showed him what the PSR-S950 can do at a family get together at a park. I did a full hour gig for everyone each evening.

Afterwards he and I got together back at the cabin alone and I showed him how I worked the keyboard. I explained that the styles I use are ones I created myself. I watched him play around with the keyboard for about 30 minutes trying different styles and voices. He then asked what the cost of the keyboard was. He was done .. that was way out of his range he said.

If you want to perform solo, these kind of keyboards are an artist's dream come true. If you just sit at home and dabble, they are an over kill for sure.

[EileenL]

Hello Olden,
  At nearly 87 I tend to agree with some of your post but I still like the ability to make a keyboard mine. By that I mean tweak up voices to my liking and not what is given as pre-set. Also do this with styles.
  Then what I do is save these to registrations. I can then sit down and play to my hearts content the things I like and in my case are lucky that others that hear the end product enjoy also.

[mikf]

The answer is that some people do and some people don't. You buy what suits your needs,desires and abilities.
Mike

[JohnS]

I have a Tyros and a Tyros5, and I've played Yamaha keyboards for a long time.

I don't use half of what is there to be used on each keyboard - it's a waste, so I tend to agree with the original post, interpreting it as a cheaper version without the unnecessary bells and whistles would be attractive to me.

Just my opinion (I am not a professional player).

[mixermixer]

IMO I like the buttons and knobs, it makes it easier to get to sounds and parameters fast. Touchscreen is nice and all but I'm glad the SX900 has buttons and the touchscreen. Personally I feel like the Genos is a step backward in functionality, almost everything is relied on the touchscreen.

[mikf]

The more functions we want, the more controls we need. And it's not related to ability, some excellent players like simple as well.
There are plenty of simpler keyboards around, the simplest is a straightforward piano, but then they don't do everything the Genos does. And there are many choices in-between. But of course no manufacturer can economically tailor every keyboard to exactly what an individual or small group of buyers need, and no more. So they  "bundle"  their designs to cover large numbers of people, and no matter what you buy there is  always going to be either something missing you would really like, or stuff you never use. Just like a smart phone, or iPad, or computer, or even some kitchen appliances. Taking out the functions you don't really want wouldn't cost less - it would generally cost more because it becomes a unique device.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

If you thought your arranger keyboard was complicated, take a look at one of the new refrigerators:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Samsung-35-75-in-W-26-5-cu-ft-3-Door-Family-Hub-French-Door-Smart-Refrigerator-in-Fingerprint-Resistant-Stainless-Steel-RF27T5501SR/312904454?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&&mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D29A-029_013_REFRIG-NA-Multi-NA-SMART-2995903-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-MajorAppl_Refrigerators&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D29A-029_013_REFRIG-NA-Multi-NA-SMART-2995903-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-MajorAppl_Refrigerators-71700000097325606-58700007913921074-92700072890223854&gclid=CjwKCAiAkrWdBhBkEiwAZ9cdcHgfLMaRCuIAHWJfsm4HtoWmNvVQ3iXaniGdDV9Es4ZO0Znn6AYXQRoCIpIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#overlay

Gary 

[DrakeM]

Gary that LINK is Toooooooo funny. But it is really for sale for anyone who deserves it. 

I still don't own a Smart (ash) fone .. just a simple land line with an answering machine. It still get the job done just fine.

[mikf]

The smart vs dumb phone is a perfect example. If all you ever need is a way to make/receive domestic phone calls, then you don't need a smart phone. But if you need to receive messages, emails etc while on the move or internationally, take photographs, move money, then you need a smart phone. But when you get a smart phone it also does a pile of other things, much of which you might never need, and it's  harder to work through all the function menus. But thats the trade off!
Mike

[Oldden]

I've enjoyed reading the replies, it's good that we have a choice, assuming that we can afford it. As mentioned in a previous post yamaha make lots of different kinds of instruments not just keyboards, I've got two guitars, one of which is acoustic, no amp nothing. The other electronic and I plug it onto an amp with lots of knobs to twiddle, and I love both.

[mikf]

Interesting that simultaneously with this  post there is another post asking for 13 things to be added to the existing 'complicated' keyboards. Can't please everybody
Mike

[TiasDad]

What I'm saying do we really need so many knobs, sliders, touch screens and the rest to enjoy music.

Do we really need keyboards when we have radios, mp3 players etc to enjoy music? If we have a need to play the music we like, why not keep it simple with a penny whistle or recorder, why the complexity of a keyboard which can play more than one note at a time?

Like all of the arts, music is subjective, some feel the need to dissect it and analyse it whereas some just like to relax and let the feeling it brings, wash over them and transport them away from reality.

Personally, I enjoy replicating the music I like, as close as I can to the original using only what is available at my fingertips. If I can't arrange it to play it live, then I tend not to play it.

Everyone has their own musical journey and it's nice that, that is the case as, if we all thought the same, we'd all soon be bored with the music and each other .. .Happy New Year all

[EileenL]

I agree music means different things to different people. For me I just like to sit at my Genos and play. It is so relaxing and you can just loose all your worries for that time. I also like to set up my favourite instruments and settings before hand. To me that is part of the fun. You just can't beat the feeling of touching those keys and playing your favourite music.

[Strideplayer]

Some of those knobs replace the musicians I had the pleasure to work with in bygone years. My piano playing always improved when I heard my favorite bass player next to me. But, he's gone and now I can twirl a knob. Unfortunately, a knob can't grin back at  you when you are flying in formation.
Happy New Year, all,

Strideplayer

[J. Larry]

For me, Yamaha arrangers are all about the styles to create backing tracks for live play, guitar/vocals in my case.  Never crack a manual.  No interest in digging deep.  Six gigs last week with SX 900 tracks.  Also, much use with Band In A Box, but much prefer Yamaha-created tracks. 

[anotherscott]

I've had one-on-one discussions with various Yamaha synth marketing people. They would actually agree with you! Many musicians -- potential customers -- are apprehensive or turned-off by the apparent complexity of modern keyboards, synths and arranger keyboards alike. A potential customer sees all of those buttons, etc. in the store and walks away baffled -- and a sale is lost.

Along the same lines, I think it's interesting that probably the biggest difference between the Korg Kronos and its replacement Nautilus is that they took away almost all the knobs, buttons, and sliders, making it look less intimidating. It doesn't matter that you could use the Kronos and never touch those extra controls and still do almost anything you could do on the Nautilus... just their visual presence alone makes the board seem more complicated. While I'm sure the elimination of controls was also a way to cut costs, I would not be at all surprised if they also felt that it would be an advantage in preventing potential customers from walking away baffled.

but are we becoming just knob twirler's instead of musicians.

This also relates to why I am more excited by the SA2 of the Genos than the original SA or the equivalent alternate articulation buttons of the Montage/MODX. I pretty much never use articulation buttons. For one thing, I can't remember what they do. ;-) (They should have small displays like those above the Genos sliders, to always indicate what will happen when you use them!) But also, to me, using articulation buttons somehow also makes it feel more like you're operating a computer than playing an instrument. The fact that SA2 does more stuff automatically, introducing an articulation simply based on how you're playing rather than needing to be invoked with a button, makes SA2 much more appealing.

[soundphase]

With Artificial Intelligence, we can expect user interfaces to be simplified in the next years by learning automatically the way one uses the instrument.