External speakers for Sx900

[rikkisbears]

Can't offer a recommendation, but reading your post made me smile, and  reminded me of the years way back in the past. As an electronics engineer, I worked for a Hi Fi retailer who stocked top of the range sound systems. Back then we had a large listening room set aside, with a range of speakers turntables and amplifiers all of which were controlled through a switching comparator. The idea of coarse was to demonstrate the tonal differences between audio products. We don't all share the same ears of coarse, being able to listen to a range of speakers was at that time an excellent guide and "ears opener"! I remember visiting a company that produced spun concrete water pipes. These were around 4ft high and we installed an upward facing dual cone driver_ about 6 to 8 inches in diameter, mounted in a sealed plinth in the top rim of the column. These speakers sounded great, despite being unusual.
Advantages.. Excellent bass response,  and you could paint them to match your living room.   
Disadvantages.. Risk of a hernia, and unsuitable for suspended floors.
Happy days. Dupe

Love it.  Reminds me of a friend of ours speakers. Set of JBL's. I think he must of bought the biggest speakers he could find for his living area. These monsters were something like 3ft wide by 2 ft deep and about 4 ft  high. Don't think he was ever able to turn them up to more than 10% volume, or the house would have shaken. Haha. I think he spent something like $10 k on his stereo setup , going back to about 1980.

[Dupe]

Thanks, Rikki,
Yes, I remember JBL and many other famous speaker manufacturers of their time...KEF, B&W, Wharfedale, Mordant Short, Quad, and many others. I've lost touch with the HiFi market now but I'm impressed with the sound from my PSR-SX700.
Regards Dupe

[rikkisbears]

Hi Dupe, my actual message didn't come thru, just your quote.  Weird. Anyway , What I meant to write was about a friend who decided he wanted good speakers, must have bought the biggest jbl's he could get.
Must have been at least 2ft deep, 3 ft wide and about 4 ft high.  Spent $10k on his stereo setup back in 1980. 
Our first little house only cost $10k back in  1970.
Found it hard to believe someone could spend so much on a stereo. Haha

[rikkisbears]

Hi
finally got to hear how a pair of external monitors could sound. My son still had my old Yamaha  Ms20s powered monitors tucked away in the garage. These I'm guessing are probably at least 30 yrs old but still working. Shows the quality of Yamaha products .  The specs on these are awful compared to some of the ones I've been looking up.
70hz - 15khz. Guessing bass frequencies aren't  too good  unless again I misunderstood  some of  the stuff. I think they're also only 20 watts and probably only a 4 inch cone plus tweeter. Anyway I plugged them in. Sound quality well,  ( though I used to love them)  hmm,  but they certainly add some presence. If I had to, I would use them, fortunately I  don't have to, I can afford to buy something better.  May not have to go quite as up market as I had envisaged,  I had these turned up to half volume and they just about blew me out of my tiny studio/bedroom.  Thinking maybe going too big could be too powerful for the room, and just wasting money on a system I may not be able to turn up more than 5% to 10%.  Slowly narrowing down my options, Yamaha, JBL, KRK, Adam. I can get a really good price on Yamaha and JBL, not so on the other 2. Either way, having found those old Yammies,  definitely makes me want to add new monitors.

[BogdanH]

You need to be careful when comparing frequency range. The thing is, nowadays most brands just write 50Hz-20KHz without specifying at what conditions. Needless to say, that such info is worthless in this case. I repeat: worthless AND deceiving. The same is true if you only see "whooping 200W".
30 years ago we could get most relevant data, for example: frequency range at -3db fall-off (so called F3), sound pressure level at given frequency range, max input power at given frequency range, loudspeaker sensitivity, etc... -all things that matter and are important to get the impression of what we are buying (by comparing to other speakers).
For example.. if I only see 100W, then I start to ask myself: ok, but how loud is that speaker at 100W? What's the level of distortion at 100W? What frequencies is speaker capable to reproduce at 100W? How loud is this 100W speaker at 1W? etc. -all the questions that need an answer.
30+ years ago, all this data was available. At that time some speaker maybe didn't have "the best" specifications, but we at least knew, what we were buying. And so, it's quite possible that an 30 years old 20W speaker sounds much better and louder, than today's "100W" speaker.
One of the indicators, that hit alarm in my head is, when I see a speaker with 4" woofer, where seller claims frequency range starting at let's say 50Hz. I mean, there are physical laws why that (for "normal" sound quality) is impossible. And if seller lies about this thing, it's lying about everything.

Just sharing my thoughts -and ranting a bit 
Bogdan

[rikkisbears]

Hi Bogdan, omg!, no wonder you haven't bought one yet. You're too well informed on all the aspects. Haha.
I've been reading the data provided by the various  manufacturers, who's speakers I'm interested in. Some of it just doesn't quite makes sense, when just say a $1500 speaker on the surface appears to have worse specs than a $500 one.

So physically impossible for a 4" woofer to start at 50hz?

Thank you. I'll check thru the manufactures I'm looking at and see what they're specifying on their 4inch speakers as well. As you said, if they lie about that, they probably won't be telling the truth about the larger monitors. either.

The ones's I've been looking at to date ,  (6 to 8 inch range) the  specs appear to be fairly similar  ie all the 8 inch ones have similar specs,  all the 7 inch etc pricing is fairly uniform also.

[BogdanH]

...Some of it just doesn't quite makes sense, when just say a $1500 speaker on the surface appears to have worse specs than a $500 one.

I think you should interpret data correctly when looking at expensive speakers. In many ways, it's like cars... Ferrari is $300.000 but it won't go uphill on snowy road, while every 10-times cheaper 4WD will -still, both are very good cars.

...So physically impossible for a 4" woofer to start at 50hz?

-the answer depends on what "start at" means? Of course it can play 50Hz. I mean, a headset can play much lower than that with tiny 4cm (1 1/2") speaker. The question is, how loud the speaker is at that frequency. Loudspeaker sensitivity is defined by dB at 1m at 1W. This tells us how loud (dB) a speaker is at power of 1W and listened at distance of 1m. For average (good) speakers, that's between 86dB-92dB. If not familiar with dB, then let's say that 90dB is quite loud! Now, try to listen headset at distance of 1m.
So, what makes a low frequency speaker louder? It's the amount (volume) of air it can push, which is defined by membrane area and membrane movement distance. Conclusion: speaker can play certain low frequency, but it must be big enough to play it loud enough. If it's not loud enough, then we use to say "this speaker has no bass". And so engineers defined F3 frequency range, which says "at that frequency loudness falls down by max 3dB" -means, at lower frequency sound becomes quieter and finally inaudible.
I hope this somehow explains importance of speaker size. Of course there are other important parameters, but I'm afraid I'm already getting too boring 
Just one more thought... Speakers that can really play 50Hz are considered as very good (hi-fi). I would say, for keyboard, a speaker that starts at 65Hz (-3dB!) is actually a very good one. Why at 65Hz? Well, that's where 2nd octave starts.

Bogdan

[ton37]

@BogdanH, appreciate sharing your knowledge with us.

[rikkisbears]

@BogdanH, appreciate sharing your knowledge with us.

Yes, we're certainly learning a lot. Thank you Bogdan.

[Enildo]

Only buy the Sub from the yamaha ks SW100. It works great with the sx900 speakers.
You will see that the sound system will improve a lot.
I even make presentations with him alone for up to 30 people.
You won't regret it!

Enildo

[rikkisbears]

Hi
I think I ended up doing tooooo ! much research and ended up totally confused. Haha. All the sites said your room must be treated , or you're just wasting money buying really good monitors? Don't know if that pertains to , only if you're planning on mixing ?or just in general.
Anyway, I ended up with the sx900 audio out going thru the audio in on the PA5x. My old PAAS (speaker system for Korg,) that   I had for my Pa3x , still works on PA5x and sounds reasonably good. Added more bass to to the sx900 .

So I've decided to wait till I sell my es920 piano before buying the monitors, it will give me a bit more space to be able to set my room up properly.

[Jeff Hollande]

A very wise decision, Rikki !
Take all the time you need.
It ain't easy to buy the right pair of speakers.
Best regards, JH

[BogdanH]

...All the sites said your room must be treated , or you're just wasting money buying really good monitors? Don't know if that pertains to , only if you're planning on mixing ?or just in general.

About room acoustic treatment.. That's needed for music production, so "neutral" sounding music can be made -a sound that isn't influenced by room. That is, to make music that sounds "perfect" in ideal conditions. But even our rooms are not ideal, that doesn't mean we must turn them into "acoustic bunker" to enjoy the music.

Did you noticed, that those studio monitors we are looking for, are actually called "near field studio monitors"? It means, it's expected that speakers would be relative close (=near) to us and directed toward us (=monitor). In this case, room acoustic doesn't play some big role anymore -at least not for musician. But what about other listener in room? Usually it's enough if they are in the same direction toward speakers as musician.

And that's all? Well... yes -unless you perform in big bathroom covered with tiles. The thing is, average living rooms don't really have that bad acoustic as some say. Curtains, carpet, sofa, furniture, etc., all that absorbs and disperses sound good enough. The rest can be managed by changing low/high frequencies on equalizer or amplifier. Again, I'm having "normal" room in mind -for big rooms, things can change drastically.

Bogdan

[J. Larry]

I use a pair of 5-inch studio monitors with the SX 900 all the time.  This is live play for retired groups of 15 to 25 people in most cases.  No problems at all in providing a full-bodied sound for folks, who don't want it very loud anyway.  Many wear hearing aids and too loud is, obviously, too loud.  The clarity is present and the sound "pristine" via studio monitors.

[rikkisbears]

I use a pair of 5-inch studio monitors with the SX 900 all the time.  This is live play for retired groups of 15 to 25 people in most cases.  No problems at all in providing a full-bodied sound for folks, who don't want it very loud anyway.  Many wear hearing aids and too loud is, obviously, too loud.  The clarity is present and the sound "pristine" via studio monitors.

Thank you. I'm starting to think I may just go for 5 inch as well, anything much bigger is going to be overpowering for the room.

[rikkisbears]

About room acoustic treatment.. That's needed for music production, so "neutral" sounding music can be made -a sound that isn't influenced by room. That is, to make music that sounds "perfect" in ideal conditions. But even our rooms are not ideal, that doesn't mean we must turn them into "acoustic bunker" to enjoy the music.

Did you noticed, that those studio monitors we are looking for, are actually called "near field studio monitors"? It means, it's expected that speakers would be relative close (=near) to us and directed toward us (=monitor). In this case, room acoustic doesn't play some big role anymore -at least not for musician. But what about other listener in room? Usually it's enough if they are in the same direction toward speakers as musician.

And that's all? Well... yes -unless you perform in big bathroom covered with tiles. The thing is, average living rooms don't really have that bad acoustic as some say. Curtains, carpet, sofa, furniture, etc., all that absorbs and disperses sound good enough. The rest can be managed by changing low/high frequencies on equalizer or amplifier. Again, I'm having "normal" room in mind -for big rooms, things can change drastically.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, thank you, I was hoping that was the case.
All the utube stuff I found on monitors was  to do with mixing and  home studio's and one guy in particular said, if your room isn't treated, don't waste your money on a good set of monitors. He was suggesting you needed to spend twice as much on room treatment  compared to what you spend on monitors. Eek!

Yes, the near field part of it I did understand.

My bedroom/music room is only about 10x12ft and carpeted. Wall to wall keyboards at the moment and a single bed. So that should help.

No wonder my paas  sounds so different currently  (so  much better) .
Last house,  Pa4x with Paas speaker, was in the living room 30x30ft with 25 ft cathedral ceilings  . Solid concrete walls , lots of window space & stone floors.  Sounds a bit like the bathroom you mentioned. Haha.
Acoustic nightmare.

Thanks again.

[mikf]

Thank you. I'm starting to think I may just go for 5 inch as well, anything much bigger is going to be overpowering for the room.

Speaker size is not necessarily related to loudness. It mostly driven by amp output, although speakers need to be able to handle the output so there is a tendency that big amp goes with larger speakers. But not necessarily.
Having read the posts, I would say you definitely don't need anything bigger than 4 inch quality monitors. And if they are quality they will give a full enough bass for a small room. Yes there are people who love massive booming bass you can hear half way up the street, but I suspect you are not one of them. So ignore the stuff about the sub woofer and if you can't go hear a selection to choose from, just buy the best quality 4 inch monitors that meets your budget. You will love them. The Maudio 4 inch would be about the lowest cost that still has quality I would recommend, but going up in price from these to other quality manufacturers like JBL etc you really can't go far wrong. If the 4 inch Maudios are more than you want to spend, consider the next size down, there isn't that much difference in a small room.
There will probably be a hundred posts telling me why I am wrong, but I am no novice at this and am pretty certain from reading your posts and understanding your needs, this will be perfect for you without breaking the bank.
Mike

[rikkisbears]

Thanks Mike,
definitely not a booming bass type person. I like nice quiet ballads, bit of country, musicals, swing, basically easy listening sort of stuff.
It's quality I'm after really.  Definitely decided not to go over 5 inches, had toyed with the idea of 4 inch ones, just wasn't sure,  glad you mentioned them.

[rikkisbears]

Hi ,
Finally bought my monitors, went for a pair  of JBL LSR305P MKII, (hopefully ok) Got a great price on them , got 2 for just over the recommended retail price of a single unit. 
I was looking at a higher end pair of Adams and Lyd5's , as well, they were  triple the price, but my keyboard guy said the jbl's will do the job nicely. So figured, he could have sold me something far more expensive, so they should be fine.

Thanks for all your help guys.

[BogdanH]

Congrats Rikki!
In my opinion, if worth, you got the best there is in this price range -at least according to specs (really love seeing 49-20,000Hz +/-3dB).
Because bass-reflex vent is on the back, just make sure that backside is not too close to the wall.

Enjoy them.

Bogdan

[overover]

Congratulations on the purchase of the JBL monitor speakers from me too, Rikki!

By the way, please note: The inputs of the JBL (XLR and 6.3 mm jack) are balanced, but the outputs of the SX900 (like all Yamaha arranger keyboards) are unbalanced. Therefore unbalanced cables must be used (normal 6.3 mm mono TS plugs on both ends). In other words: NO balanced cables (TRS plugs) should be used, because the RING contact of the output jacks on the keyboard is not connected.


Best regards,
Chris

[rikkisbears]

Congrats Rikki!
In my opinion, if worth, you got the best there is in this price range -at least according to specs (really love seeing 49-20,000Hz +/-3dB).
Because bass-reflex vent is on the back, just make sure that backside is not too close to the wall.

Enjoy them.

Bogdan

Thanks Bogdan,
yes, I will keep them away from the wall. That's something I did learn from watching at least 100 utube video clips. Haha. Glad I finally made a choice, I was starting to drive myself nuts ( possibly some others as well, haha)

[rikkisbears]

Thank you Chris, and thank you for the advice on the cables. Mine are all mono 1/4 inch inch cables. Had them forever. Might get some new ones. Would xlr  to 1/4inch mono be better than  1/4 inch mono each end?  Only time I've come across xlr is on the  Korg pax's for microphone input.

[mixermixer]

Hey Rikki, I also use a pair of LSR305P MKII as studio/PC monitors, they're great. I have mine with an external sub and 100hz crossover so my setup sounds awesome.

[overover]

Thank you Chris, and thank you for the advice on the cables. Mine are all mono 1/4 inch inch cables. Had them forever. Might get some new ones. Would xlr  to 1/4inch mono be better than  1/4 inch mono each end?  Only time I've come across xlr is on the  Korg pax's for microphone input.

Thanks for your feedback, Rikki!

No, 1/4 inch (TS) to XLR cables are not recommended in this case. The reason is that XLR inputs are designed for a much lower output impedance.

If you use a high-quality DI box (such as the active "Palmer PAN4A"), you go with (short as possible) 1/4 inch (TS) cables to the DI box and from there with (any length) "XLR female to XLR male" cables to the JBL monitor speakers.

But with a direct connection, i.e. without a DI box in between, you should definitely use the 1/4 inch inputs of the JBL.


Best regards,
Chris

[rikkisbears]

Thank you so much , Chris,  I'll get a decent set of 1/4 inch mono's.
Wow, a couple of the  more expensive monitors I was looking at originally only had xlr inputs. Lucky I didn't go ahead as I would have just bought axle  to 1/4 inch mono, blissfully unaware I shouldn't connect this way.

Really appreciate your help.

[lmederos]

A good sound bar with a sub system works well for me; I realize my solution may not be good for many of you.

[rikkisbears]

Hi Luis, it's always interesting to know what works for others.

[MarkF_48]

I've had a set of LSR305's (version 1) for about 9 years in my studio. Prior to the JBL's I've had Yorkville, Fostex, and M-Audio monitors and by far the LSR305's are the best sounding most accurate of the bunch.
When I first got the JBL's I was using 1/4" TS cables because I had them. A few years ago I switched to 1/4" TRS cables. The only noticeable difference was a small increase in volume which happens when going from an unbalanced connection to one that is balanced. As previously noted you'll need to use 1/4" TS cables for your connections.

Enjoy!!!! 

[mixermixer]

I've had a set of LSR305's (version 1) for about 9 years in my studio. Prior to the JBL's I've had Yorkville, Fostex, and M-Audio monitors and by far the LSR305's are the best sounding most accurate of the bunch.
When I first got the JBL's I was using 1/4" TS cables because I had them. A few years ago I switched to 1/4" TRS cables. The only noticeable difference was a small increase in volume which happens when going from an unbalanced connection to one that is balanced. As previously noted you'll need to use 1/4" TS cables for your connections.

Enjoy!!!! 

As far as I know, SX900 isn't internally balanced line out.