New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Dnj]

Looking forward to a new Genos when it comes along.

I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers.

[Lee Batchelor]

What's the source of your information? Sounds unlikely to me.

[Jeff Hollande]

I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Yamaha will introduce a brand new high end arranger keyboard in September ( ? ) 2023.
I am convinced this new born baby will surprise the entire, worldwide arranger keyboard community.
All customers will be spoiled, believe me ... be patient. 


Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

... new high end arranger keyboard in September ( ? ) 2023.

Jeff... could you send a letter to Yamaha and ask them to delay a little?.. I'm not sure I can save that much money in such short time.. thank you 

Bogdan

[Bill]

I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers.

I have to agree with you.  I think the new TOTL Arranger will amaze us all, however I think a lot of people will be really disappointed at the same time.  Why.  In my opinion the new board will be a total departure from the old Tyros and Genos operating systems.  In order to make significant improvements they have no choice but to scrap the Style definitions and method of using sounds.

1.  They have never been able to achieve smooth sound switching.
2.  Their method of using sound samples is way out of date, and requires lots of very expensive memory.
3.  They did not stop development of Expansion Voice packs and new Styles (more than 2 years ago) for no other reason, than to accept their they were flogging a dead horse.
4.  Trying to maintain backward compatibility like they have in the past is simply going to be to difficult to achieve within the OS it's self.  Let's face it, the style format is now several decades old now and there does not appear to be much more they can improve with their hands tied behind their backs. The only option is to start again with something that will last another twenty years. Let's just hope they can achieve some limited compatibility though some external software.
5.  If they are going to appeal to the younger musician, they will have to change the OS touch interface to something considerably larger or make External Touch Screens accessible.  The current screen size is simply to small to allow in-house editing (like a DAW)

I think the new Yamaha Arranger will be well developed by now (starting since the release of the Genos) however I'm also sure they are watching very carefully the development of boards From Ketron and Korg.

Regards
Bill

[Lee Batchelor]

That's quite intuitive, Bill. I think you're probably right with most of your comments. Yamaha has never been one to sit back in their chairs and count their profits. They know that the other players in the business will try to out do them.

I suspect the same as you. In fact I guarantee you Yamaha has Genos 2 almost ready for production. They're probably just doing the final adjustments to see if the competition has added something Yamaha didn't. In fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts, Yamaha is already at the preliminary stages of Genos 3! Yes, that's the way true leading companies work.

[keynote]

Donny aka DNJ heard "rumors" so likely there is no solid evidence out there that Yamaha is "going to go in a different direction regarding arrangers." Until there is concrete evidence, we should take such rumors with a huge grain of salt, in my opinion. Now, it could be that someone out there has a real close connection with Yamaha Japan/Yamaha USA and who also posts on various music/keyboard forums, under an alias, and as a favor to the music community has relayed accurate insider information that Yamaha may in fact be headed in a different direction regarding arrangers. Yamaha makes employees sign non-disclosure agreements, but if the person is posting under an alias, he could theoretically side step the NDA? He may also have Yamaha's blessing to announce such information as a way to soften the blow, which indeed would be a huge shock to the keyboard community if Yamaha abandons the high-end arranger segment of the market. But for now, I think we should all relax until further 'proof' of what exactly will be Yamaha's business model going forward.

I mean, if Yammie really does quit making high-end arrangers in the way we currently understand arrangers, then what would be their replacement? If Yammie does come out with a new arranger, prototype, they must think people will like it and buy it, or why would they deviate in the first place? If they abandon arrangers altogether then we, on this forum and elsewhere, will thankfully have two other great options, namely the Korg Pa5X and the even newer and quite honestly even better sounding, Ketron Event. Btw, here's another new Ketron Event YouTube video. It focuses on the Event's Real Styles (Part 1) *NO TALKING* by Bartek Krzemiński from Poland. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWZF85LXAA

All the best,
Mike

[travlin-easy]

DNJ, whom I have known for nearly 3 decades, seems to hear a lot of rumors about Yamaha, but those sources seem to always be a bit alute. I still have contact with a couple individuals at Yamaha and they seem to think that Yamaha will far outpace the competition, mainly Roland and Korg when their next top-end arranger keyboard hits the market. Yamaha has been in the musical instrument biz for several decades. My first 12-string guitar was a Yamaha and was the most incredible sounding guitar I ever owned or heard. I have a lot of faith that they will introduce something very exciting and at a reasonable price.

Good luck,

Gary (The old codger)

[Lee Batchelor]

Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The north American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi :

Nobody will/can tell/confirm where these rumors are coming from, as usual. The unknown rumors' suspects are dead or buried. 

Why should Yamaha leave the high end arranger keyboard business now ?
Yamaha are the market leader for more than 20 years and their high end arrangers have always been very popular, they have an excellent reputation and they are very reliable.

Amen !

JH

[ton37]

Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The north American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!

About dealership: perhaps nowadays it is no longer always necessary to have or organize 'physical' dealership. The internet shops are flourishing worldwide for a reason. The delivery partners arrange the logistics part. Dealers are price-increasing elements in the sales markets. There are enough products (also relatively expensive) that you can only buy from the company itself (via an internet shop). Or an international internet shop (Thomann, Bax, Guitarcentre etc. etc.) An example is the computer market: parts are sold worldwide ... and a keyboard is in fact also a 'music computer'. So Ketron could certainly take such an approach. It is better to try such an instrument at home for a few weeks than to spend an hour in a physical store with a few hours drive! If you don't like it, you can return it within 30/60 days... you almost don't have to go out the door. Welcome to the wide world of internet shopping...

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Ton :

Most high end arranger keyboard's traditional buyers prefer to test their new instrument thoroughly ( in a shop ) before buying, IMHO.

If one has ordered an expensive instrument on the internet he/she has to pay a very important amount of money in advance.
When the buyer does not like the new machine he/she has to return it to the seller.
After return, the seller needs time to check if the ordered goods all came back in their original packaging and condition.
It takes ( at least ! ) 3 weeks before the buyer will get his/her money back.
Last but not least he/she cannot trade in the older arranger.

I really wonder how many members would go for such a risky purchase ?
Not me, would you ?

JH

[ton37]

Yes, I did several times with reliable companies. No problems and I would do it again .. 

[EileenL]

We are lucky here in the UK as we still have shops that will deliver and set the instrument up for you if you require it. They also offer good part exchange prices.

[Jeff Hollande]

@ Ton :
It is nice to hear you have met good internet purchasing experiences. 

I am an old man and do my expensive purchases in the old fashioned way : I try before I buy.
Have a nice weekend, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

I understand Ton's point. If I could order an Event and have a 30 day money back guarantee, I may be tempted to try one out in that fashion.

I have auditioned many keyboards "in store" and even at the best shops, the ambient noise level is enough to be a nuisance for critical listening. Instead, my favorite store lets me take any keyboard home and try it out in my sound room. They insist I keep it for a practice or two, and get the other band members' opinions. They'll even let me take it out to a show! I've never done the latter. I don't think it's fair to make the store responsible for repairs when some drunk spills his beer on my new keyboard - although that's never happened.

And then, (as Jeff mentioned) there's the trade-in part. I have never sold a keyboard privately. I don't have time for some stranger to come into my house and play my keyboard for a few hours, and then decline it. I know the formula my store uses to calculate trade-in values, and the amount I get for my trade-in is very much dependent on how I've treated my keyboard over the years, not what some stranger is willing to pay. Sadly, despite babying my Genos, it will not be worth the usual "excellent condition" on trade, all thanks to Yamaha's sub-standard build quality.

So, internet purchase of any keyboard is off the table for me. Besides, when you buy a computer over the internet, all you need to do is look at the specs. To buy a keyboard, you need to look at the specs AND listen to what those specs can do. That's the classical comparison of apples to oranges 😀.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Lee :

I also understand Ton's point of view ... BUT ...

The internet purchase might be a solution in some very exceptional cases however ... in general it is like buying a brand new car on the internet no one has ever seen nor touched before and the buyer cannot drive this new car, not even trade in his/her old car.
He/she is obliged to sell it privately.

Not my cup of tea either.

All the best, JH

[travlin-easy]

The vast majority of the shops I have dealt with for several decades have their own, in-store, sound-proof rooms where you can test any form of musical equipment. Even the local GC had this feature here in the Baltimore area. Washington Music in Rockville, Maryland has an entire segment of it's huge complex that is dedicated to arranger keyboards and synths. Music Land in Bel Air, Maryland has a dozen, sound proof rooms used for teaching and can be used to test any instrument they sell. No worries about ambient store sounds at any location I've visited, including several mom & pop stores in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Most, but not all, online stores offer a 30-day return policy, however, it often comes with a price, or 15 percent restocking fee and you pay the shipping charges, sometimes, both ways. That could amount to nearly $750 plus another couple hundred bucks in shipping fees and shipping insurance. Grand total for that online tryout could amount to $1,000.

Think about it!

Gary

[keynote]

Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The North American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!

I agree, Lee. You have to realize Ketron is a relatively small company with a small footprint in the overall keyboard market. As such, they probably don't have enough revenue on hand to create a more comprehensive dealer/service network in many countries. I commend them for at least trying to have a more broad-scale approach with both dealers and services here in the USA. According to AJ, who is the Ketron USA distributor employee manager, says there will be no more shipments of the Event until March 2023. With such a long delay, many keyboardists might give up and grab a Korg Pa5X, much sooner, although Korg seems to be trickling them out slowly currently, probably because of the Operating System bugs in the current 1.1.0 OS update which came out in December but is still very buggy from what I understand and still a few missing features that Korg promised would be added... eventually. 

Here is another recent Korg Pa5X YouTube video from Joh.deHeer Muziekinstrum in the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken. The demonstrator is product specialist Nico Vlemmings. Update: I stated previously that the Ketron Event sounded better than the Pa5X, but this demo undercuts my previous statement. When demonstrated by a professional keyboardist with the right recording/sound equipment setup, the Korg Pa5X really shines, and I think that's the key to discovering just how good the Pa5X really is. Here's the video link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyDdnJ5gZCw

All the best,
Mike

[tyrosman]

I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers.

where did you hear this Donny

[tyrosman]

I have just watched the two Ketron videos and am now less impressed. Will defiantly be sticking with Yamaha.

same here Eileen

[keynote]

Most, but not all, online stores offer a 30-day return policy, however, it often comes with a price, or 15 percent restocking fee and you pay the shipping charges, sometimes, both ways. That could amount to nearly $750 plus another couple hundred bucks in shipping fees and shipping insurance. Grand total for that online tryout could amount to $1,000.

Think about it!

Gary

I guess it makes sense to shop around, right, Gary? 👍 For instance, Sweetwater.com in Fort Wayne, IN has free shipping on almost everything they sell. If you do end up returning an item, they will refund the purchase price minus the cost of return shipping. Another tip is that any product you think you might want to purchase, e.g. a Korg Pa5X, etc., you should do your homework before buying. Listen to demos from experts in their field online, i.e. professional, accomplished, keyboardists with top-shelf video/recording/sound equipment in order to get a good idea of the features, functions, and if the styles, and sounds (voices) meet your strict criteria. That way, if you do decide to buy from an online retailer it's more than likely you won't need to return it and if you do return it to a reputable outfit then theoretically you're only out the return shipping cost. PS: If Yammie is still in the high-end arranger business as we know it, then there are brick and mortar stores like Guitar Center that you will likely find the Genos 2/II/ or whatever they decide to call it, in stock and ready for purchase usually shortly after Yamaha's official announcement. But, quite frankly, I don't expect the Genos successor to roll off the assembly line until sometime in 2024, but maybe Yamaha will surprise us? 

All the best,
Mike   

[svpworld]

Just thought I would put my penny's worth in as someone who also spotted this new Ketron arranger, the Event.

First impression of course is that the audio styles are and understandbly sound impressive. Of course they will, they are audio recordings of real players. You are basically listening to a digital recording, rather like a record!  However as with any audio backing, the novelty for me wore off rather quickly once I had heard a selection of the styles and a few videos using this feature. Real performances of solo instruments such as harmonica and sax in the intros and endings clearly give that 'whooo' factor the first time you hear them, but seriously I cannot see that novelty lasting very long. However if there's some highly intelligent  arranging that completely changes those solo lines then it would be interesting.

I also downloaded a hi-res image of the front panel of the Ketron Event, and that's where I lost interest.  The panel layout and UX is no way as intuitively designed and organised as Yamaha's arrangers.  A mass of closely spaced and similar shaped buttons with only the text labels giving any clue as to the function of them.  I could imagine it would take some practice to quickly locate some of those functions in a busy performance.  Most notably, no physical registration buttons that I could see - unlike the centre stage 10 illuminated buttons of the Genos.  So as a Yamaha player I didn't spot separate ending buttons for the styles (they appear to be using the same buttons as the intros), I didn't spot midi player and record buttons in one place, no registration buttons (yes I know the Event has registrations but it's not intuitive where they are controlled from).  I wonder how much deep diving is needed to use some of those performance features?   

Sonically the Event impresses from what I've heard so far in the various demo videos. However nothing compared to what virtual instruments on a computer would achieve, and I haven't heard anything yet that rivals the Genos in terms of nuance and expression.  The strad violin sounded nice though.

Given the retail price is very closely matching the Yamaha Genos, it should be interesting to see more videos from real buyers once this hits the shops.  I don't think I would be trading my Genos for one though, but plenty of inspiration for the Yamaha designers to consider when they look to designing their next flagship arranger workstation.

Regards
Simon


The extra sliders are nice, and the metal side panels are a welcome feature. Soundwise there are some nice presets from what I've heard in the demos.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Up to now Simon, an expert some of us already know for so many years, gave me the best first detailed impression of the Event.
Thank you, Simon !
 
The Event, a nice looking high end arranger with a great sound but not in the hands of an enduser yet.

I think it is a very wise conclusion to wait for the Genos ' successor before buying an Event or a PA5X.
It could be a terrible mistake for a Yamaha player not to wait for Yamaha's answer first ( for so many reasons we are ALL aware of ), IMHO. 

Best regards, JH

[EileenL]

I think you will find most Yamaha users will do just that. For me Genos is still the best keyboard out there.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
You are right there. The Genos is the best arranger by a mile
As you know i have been getting down to learn all about mixing etc
Now i have turned the corner after getting the hang of using Compressors, limiters, metering and referenceing.
Dynamics is most important in mixing and it took me some time getting my head around it all.
For anyone interested there is a VST plugin called AB Metric and it is worth it weight in gold, also Ian Shepard's Dynameter. Love GulfossEQ.
Now i have learnt near, far and sides, up and down perception in the stereo mix and it makes a big difference when plonking things in the stereo field. It is like painting with numbers on an Artmaster board. I can see the canvas in my head.

Yes some want to just get on and play the Genos especially if they gig, but i do not want that sort of life as 20 years Djing years back got me my 15 minutes.
I practice every day and after start on mixing and learning by bungling along
My end goal is to write my own music hopefully this year , but i have to in my mind get the covers sounding similar to originals for my apprentiship at 71.
No matter what it is great fun and as you all know learning, playing and wasting lots of time keeps the brain cells going!!!

The Genos is great and i cannot fault it and like you Eileen ,i will wait.
If there are any problems on the Genos, there are always a way around it with a nice cup 'a tea.



All the Best
John

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

Congratulations ! You are becoming the CC ( Cubase Champion ) of this Forum.

Last year, I bought Cubase 12 for my Mac computer but I am still a dedicated win follower of XGWorks ( midi editing ) and Cakewalk by BandLab ( Sonar's successor for audio editing ).
I am used to work with these 2 progs for so many years. It is hard for me ( 75 ) to start with Cubase but ... the intention is there. 

In my perception the Yamaha XGW is the best midi editing prog ever but no longer suitable for the modern styles.
 
Take care, my friend ! JH

[kiplis]

Maybe a bit out of topic,

but I was thinking, while waiting something more up-to date arranger from Yamaha, perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01
speakers to something that sounds more realistic. I was wondering if these https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4 studio monitors would be something
to test. Well, unfortunately KRK G4 only have balanced input, while Genos has unbalanced output. Any suggestions, are they any good for
Genos (with extra hardware)?

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Kip

I agree the Genos satalites are mickey mouse speakers
I am not a fan of KRK.
If you want flat speakers to mix songs ,Speaker Monitors are best . I use Focal Alpha 50's

For general playing i use Yamaha DXR 8 self powerered speakers

You get what you pay for with speakers and you will get quite a few answers to what is best.
Yamaha Powered speakers/monitors are good Yamaha Studio Monitors HS8.
I hear that Kali's are good.

Taste and try before you buy!!!   Savoy Brown!!       Someone will know what i am saying


All the best
John

[overover]

Off topic

Maybe a bit out of topic,

but I was thinking, while waiting something more up-to date arranger from Yamaha, perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01
speakers to something that sounds more realistic. I was wondering if these https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4 studio monitors would be something
to test. Well, unfortunately KRK G4 only have balanced input, while Genos has unbalanced output. Any suggestions, are they any good for
Genos (with extra hardware)?

Hi kiplis,

The GNS-MS01 speaker system has a sufficiently good sound for "home players", which can be significantly improved or adjusted to your own taste with minor adjustments to the Master EQ and Master Compressor settings.

When it comes to (semi-)professional recordings/audio productions that should also sound as good as possible on other devices, good studio monitor speakers with which you can listen "analytically" are of course preferable (and also good studio headphones) .

Connecting unbalanced keyboard outputs to balanced inputs from studio monitors or an external mixer is no problem. Just make sure to use unbalanced cables. The KRK studio monitors you mentioned have a TRS/XLR combo input jack. So you use normal unbalanced instrument cables (6.3 mm mono TS jack plug on both sides). If only XLR inputs are available, use the following unbalanced cables:
6.3 mm mono TS jack plug > XLR male connector (XLR pins 1 + 3 bridged)

Note that unbalanced cables should always be as short as possible or no longer than necessary in order to minimize interference.


Best regards,
Chris