New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Lee Batchelor]

Eileen's points are well taken and respected.

She's correct in saying the main goal of this forum is, "How to do this or that" on the Genos because the manual is ambiguous or too general. Its been five years since the Genos was released and I'd venture to say that most topics and issues have been covered. That leaves us to discuss, "What's next for Genos owners?" The only fodder currently available that can stimulate such conversation or dreams is the emergence of two competing arrangers. It's natural for this discussion to take place. If Yamaha even catches one idea from our discussion to add to the Genos 2, we all win.

Move it to another topic area? Perhaps but I have this forum saved in my favorites. I really dislike having to go to the Home page and dig for the topic. I suppose that once found, I could create a second favorite, but the speculation about Genos 2 and its relationship to the two new products on the block is still very relevant. Despite the twists and turns in this ONE thread, it still boils down to our thoughts about the current Genos. For example, suppose someone says, "The PA5X can do 'this' but the Genos can't." Then, someone says, "Yes you can do that on the Genos. Here's how." Do we move this topic back here because all of a sudden, the question pertains to this part of the forum?

Leave this topic where it is.

Edit
One more thought, if I may. I've noticed in the past year that questions about the Genos are drifting very deep into areas where 99% of us never go, and that is recording and production. This is further proof that we've pretty much covered everything common to most players.

[RoyB]

As the original poster, I started this thread in the Genos section as a news item of specific interest To Genos owners because a direct competitor to the Genos was about to be launched with some new interesting and unique features.

In the spirit of free debate, members have made contributions, expressed opinions and taken the discussion in the direction of their choosing (but still revolving around the Ketron Event compared to the Genos). It is all rather harmless (and some of it is informative). so I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Roy. If your topic had little relevance to most of us, it wouldn't occupy six pages of forum space 😉.

[ton37]

This thread has been posted on the Genos section and seems to be about three different keyboards Korg, Ketron and Genos. It is Jeff that mentions the price of new Genos which of course is not known.
  Of course, knowing what else is out there is of interest to some and there have been links posted for us to see.
  I am not out to deprive anything from anyone, but I think this thread is now going round in ever decreasing circles and maybe should be moved to general chit chat.

Ok, but where's that 'General Chit Chat' section? I assume you know the policy of the forum owner/forum moderators in this regard?

Additional: I can assure you if Yamaha only comes out with a new keyboard in 2024/2025 (I still count it on half 2023!) the 'chit chat' about Korg and Ketron (in combination/comparison with e.g. a SX-900/Genos1) only but will increase ..

[pjd]

Agreed, Roy. If your topic had little relevance to most of us, it wouldn't occupy six pages of forum space 😉.

It's only bits. How much Internet space have we "wasted" -- a few hundred kilobytes?  I'd rather worry about hunger and world peace.

MEH -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Right on, PJ. Down with war and hunger!

[Henni]

The more videos I watch, the more I am convinced that this is like BIAB put into an arranger. It seems like the styles use mostly, if not only, audio parts. And then there is the solo parts which plays semi melodies that follows your chord progressions. Plus different intro/endings for different chords (not only majors & minors, but also for  purely different major chords) which will make things much less boring.

Once again Ketron made a stunning breakthrough and I simply cannot wait to have one of these. They are readily available around $4999 which is good value for money. For now I am collecting all videos I can find. No more tweaking midi styles. Nothing can compare with real life audio. You close your eyes and you hear a real band - as this IS a real band playing. No fakes anywhere to be found. AMAZING!!!

https://youtu.be/8glvNLZtph8  https://youtu.be/p07dCeTRcEw  https://youtu.be/MqWyyfh5ELQ  https://youtu.be/9ARTaU3I4nE  https://youtu.be/iqZSaQiBymk

https://youtu.be/V-VE02rdmjQ  https://youtu.be/gVWwrOSgvlY  https://youtu.be/z04kHuatFNU  https://youtu.be/C-WYrfDdRsA  https://youtu.be/i3deAuYNvjk

https://youtu.be/L-XPOkF6FvA  https://youtu.be/aSN-3xvRYwI  https://youtu.be/BKydoIukjLY  https://youtu.be/o_di2n-rCkU  https://youtu.be/o_W8ozk2ZhM

https://youtu.be/a8zOFRps0PQ  https://youtu.be/z04kHuatFNU  https://youtu.be/igss1qU9_8c

Apologies if some of these already appeared on this topic - I am merely listing EVERYTHING I can find above.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Hennie :

It is great to hear your voice again.

It looks like you are very interested in the Event.
You are very familiar with Ketron, see your Audya5 you had in the past.

The sound and features of the Ketron's Event look great but their after sales service has always been a problem.
What about their dealership and service in your country, South Africa ?

For most members here Ketron's present global dealership and after sales service might be a serious problem.

Last but not least we do not know how the Yamaha's new Genos2
will look like and which novelties can be expected yet.

Best wishes, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

I used Band In A Box about eight years ago and even that version was and still is far superior to any arranger.

If Ketron has managed to turn this famous piece of software into an arranger, they'll be very popular. I have to say, after hearing the Ketron styles and then the Genos styles, the Genos styles sound way behind the times. Don't get me wrong. The Genos is still a stellar stage and home arranger but if Yamaha only "refreshes" the Genos 2 with some minor upgrades as they did with all five of the Tyros series, I won't be updating. Somehow I think Yamaha will do better then Ketron. Can't wait to find out 🤣!

[maartenb]

I used Band In A Box about eight years ago and even that version was and still is far superior to any arranger.

This can be explained by two factors:

• BIAB knows the chord progression in advance, while an arranger has to operate in real time.
  This is the reason the bass for example sounds so great in BIAB. When you program a 7 chord and the corresponding "target" chord after it (like G7 - C), the bass might "walk" from G to C. An arranger can't do this, unless you play the walking bass line yourself.
  


• BIAB is a PC based application.
  This gives BIAB access to much more RAM and disk space than that embedded in a musical instrument. BIAB also has way more processing power at its disposal than the embedded processor of an arranger.
  The sounds therefore can be better. For example, drums with different samples per hit existed as VSTs (virtual instruments on a computer) already years before. The Genos was "just" the first to implement it in an arranger. Another example, there are piano VSTs that sound better than the most expensive Clavinova. Just because the VST can have so much samples and processing.

BIAB and arrangers are two different animals, designed with different use cases in mind.


Maarten

[maartenb]

I am merely listing EVERYTHING I can find above.

Thank you, Henni. This collection of demos does sound impressive.

I am just so curious to hear the Event in a real life situation, like someone playing a (cover) song with it. What will I hear then? Will the chord changes sounds smooth? How well will the "improv lines" follow the chord progression? Will the improv lines be musically useful and suiting to the song being played? Etc.


Maarten

[Lee Batchelor]

You're 100% right, Maarten. However, you're comparing the operational part of BIAB versus the Genos. It's like comparing apples to oranges but those are both fruit, just as the ultimate goal of BIAB and the Genos is to produce music.

I suppose what I'm saying is, the Event just sounds better with its far superior variations in background instrumentation. Ketron has managed to create a hybrid of BIAB and an arranger. That puts Yamaha WAY behind. The Genos is excellent but it still uses outdated, boiler plate patterns that just repeat. For me, if Genos 2 doesn't abandon that ancient technology and ends up as a refreshed Genos, I won't bother upgrading.

[Misu]

Hi to everyone,

IMO
With only 1Gb memory for the user, 7 inch fixed display and good sound it should be at a price between SX900 and Genos.
If it has greater style editing capabilities, let's say 3500 euros, it's a fair price.
I don't know anything about BIAB but for 3 years I've also had a KORG and in many styles variation 3 (7) G7 goes up with the bass and others to C as well as var.4 (dim) can do arpeggios and when changing it continues exactly as it should be.
Let's not forget that there are 6 chord variations in total.
Even the saxophone that follows the chords is not something new, but only something newly presented. I may be wrong.
I have enough styles with a melodic line on styles similar to some musettes on Main D.
Different inputs on Maj and Min have been with Korg for at least 15 years.
Even at Yamaha I have something like this, only that there is a condition to have the same sequence of C-F-G7 and Cm-Fm-G7 chords so that part of the channels can be used for both intros.
Or without this condition, fewer channels on intros.
If there are more news, we will see.

Best regards.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Apparently the first Event's deliveries are expected to arrive at some European ( ? ) dealers just before X-mas 2022.
The second shipment has been planned for March 2023, one said.

We do not know if the delivered Event keyboards ( December 2022 ) have been sold yet ( to endusers ) and when dealers will have time to make their first video's on Youtube.
X-Mas is a very busy period and dealers' priority #1 will be to sell stock items as much as possible.

Up to now we have heard and seen very short Event video clips and specs.
I have to agree the Event seems to be impressive but what about " the real thing " ?

No video news before mid January 2023 ? Wait and see what will happen early January 2023. 

BTW price info : approx. 5,000 US$.

Best regards, JH

[mikf]

[quote author=Misu link=topic=64153.msg490829#msg490829 date=1668782273
IMO
With only 1Gb memory for the user, 7 inch fixed display and good sound it should be at a price between SX900 and Genos.
If it has greater style editing capabilities, let's say 3500 euros, it's a fair price.

[/quote]
Misu- not sure how you came up with this, Ketron Event price indications are much higher. Maybe 5000 euros or more. I think someone had a quote of $8000 Canadian, more like $6000 US.
Mike

[Misu]

Hi

I know it is 4900Euros
Here you have a friend comment from my country.

<<<At this price, the keyboard is a joke.
1GB for samplers?
As 1.5 are for extorting money from users, probably through the sound banks sold by them..
Then, in the digital age, is there no digital audio output?
not even at Output Analog, it doesn't say that they are balanced...
... not even at the entrances.
Even the Medeli AKX10, a Chinese product, has 256 polyphony.
1280 user sounds, means about 10 banks of 128, but with 1 GB of sample memory... if you can't combine the internal oscillators with the sampler ones, in 2 banks you've finished the sampler memory.
Ah, I was forgetting...
Now, in Genos, I have 38 packages of 128 users..
And I still have about 700-800mb free...

And 4 layers per user sound, again, it's a bad, amateurish joke.
On the Yamaha you have 32 stereo layers.

The sounds he boasts about are actually a kind of S.Articulation from Yamaha. Anyone who knows how the Saxophone sounds on the Genos, or other instruments with Articulation, what glissando, or other effects it has, understands what I'm saying.

2 simultaneous effects can be inserted as an insert on a style?
"1 Insert to Arranger chords, 1 Insert to Real Chord."
On Genos, I play all 8 tracks, you can even combine them.
Genos has 27 inset fx simultaneously. 27!!!

Genos is right, only Audio Style as drums, Ketron would also be bass.
They say it goes directly from the ssd (direct streaming), which would not load the sampler memory.
But also with Genos, Audio Style goes directly from usb or ssd.
I don't see anything written about sampler compatibility, not even with the old Ketron series.
What am I kidding?
On 2 Main out and 2 auxiliary (which from the description are actually 1 stereo)? But maybe I'm wrong and Aux 1 is a separate stereo output from Aux2.
Then we have L-R (Main), Ls-Rs (Aux1) and C-Sub (Aux2).
But if they are not balanced outputs, it's a shame of the sound, goodbye fidelity.

But what are the specifications, I would only understand a Ketron fan buying something like this, instead of a Genos.>>>

Regards

[mikf]

Misu - I see where your friend is coming from, but don't think the 'tech spec' comparison approach is very important to most arranger buyers. For example I bet 90% of arranger players never mess with samples. Don't care about layers etc.
Do they like how it sounds, looks, plays, - thats what they will judge. I don't think I have ever even looked at specs when buying a keyboard, I look at what others are saying about it, play it if possible then decide. $5000 is a lot, but not extraordinary for a TOTL arranger.
Ketron is a bit of a niche product, but based on what we see and hear so far, it seems impressive regardless of the specs.
Mike

[Henni]

If one could use some of the AWESOME BIAB wave loops to modify existing audio Ketron styles, the results would be AMAZING!!!! And I have a strong suspicion that this might just be possible...

[rphillipchuk]

What I find amazing is that even though the PA5X is relative new, for every one video that Ketron makes, there are 10 that are professionally made for the PA5X.

I know that Ketron is small compared to "Korg" but surely they could spend some money on marketing to at least compete with Korg.

I have a huge interest in the "Event" but I cannot play one, I cannot see one, I cannot touch one ..... So all that I have left is the few videos that I can find on Youtube.  I just got back from "Long and Mcquade's" and there is absolutely no info of its existence on their main Site.

I have done the math and if you order from AJ or any other American Company, they will happily send you an Event for approximately $7500/8000 Canadian total ( $4999.00 + State Tax + Shipping (?) + Customs + exchange rate )

That is a lot of money to spend on a keyboard unseen.

I have saved and put aside some monies and I am ready to purchase. The only Boards that interest me are:
Ketron Event
Yamaha CVP 809
Korg 88 PA5X



 

[Lee Batchelor]

What I find amazing is that even though the PA5X is relative new, for every one video that Ketron makes, there are 10 that are professionally made for the PA5X.
I know that Ketron is small compared to "Korg" but surely they could spend some money on marketing to at least compete with Korg.
I have a huge interest in the "Event" but I cannot play one, I cannot see one, I cannot touch one ..... So all that I have left is the few videos that I can find on Youtube.  I just got back from "Long and Mcquade's" and there is absolutely no info of its existence on their main Site.
I have done the math and if you order from AJ or any other American Company, they will happily send you an Event for approximately $7500/8000 Canadian total ( $4999.00 + State Tax + Shipping (?) + Customs + exchange rate )
That is a lot of money to spend on a keyboard unseen.
I have saved and put aside some monies and I am ready to purchase. The only Boards that interest me are:
Ketron Event
Yamaha CVP 809
Korg 88 PA5X

Fellow Canadian here 👍. The Event is a no go for me. Too much money for an unknown and unplayable keyboard before purchase. If L&M knows nothing about it, no one else will. I'm confident Yamaha's answer to the Event and 5X will be amazing. I'm willing to wait.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Lee :

The Event is no option for me either.

Will Yamaha launch the Genos2 in 2023 ?
It is so quiet ... much too quiet.

Best wishes, JH

[EileenL]

Yamaha usually launch around October time, so it is far too early for any information yet.

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you for your reply, Eileen.
I have to keep my Tyros4 for at least another year then. 

JH
 

[hammer]

I have owned the Ketron S7 keyboard, the Ketron SD90 module, and stll own
The Ketron SD40 module.  In the past I have owned Korgs, Rolands, ane
All the Yamaha arrangers starting with the
PSR3000, The T4, T5, and the Genos.  Believe
me when I tell you NOT ANY of those keyboards
even come close to producing the realistic instrument
sounds as do the Ketron products. 

Deane

[ton37]

Mmm.. very interesting, that's quite a statement @hammer 

I'v never heard a ketron 'live', but will do once I get a chance to hear it by myself!

[Jeff Hollande]

Believe me when I tell you NOT ANY of those keyboards
even come close to producing the realistic instrument
sounds as do the Ketron products. 
Deane

I have never heard that before !!! 

JH

[ton37]

I have owned the Ketron S7 keyboard, the Ketron SD90 module, and stll own
The Ketron SD40 module.  In the past I have owned Korgs, Rolands, ane
All the Yamaha arrangers starting with the
PSR3000, The T4, T5, and the Genos.  Believe
me when I tell you NOT ANY of those keyboards
even come close to producing the realistic instrument
sounds as do the Ketron products. 

Deane

Pls. could you explain what did you miss in the Ketron as you bought e.g. all those yamaha's, even a Genos. Why didn't stick with tfhe Ketron sec. Maybe only for the soundquality etc. in those mudules? Or..?

[hammer]

Ok, I have been performing music professionally for 65 plus years and am now 82 and very happily retired.
As I got older some of the equipment was to heavy to carry out to 5-6 gigs a week and carry back into the house
so I moved on to something I thought  was lighter.  I still use my Ketron SD40 module and it is awesome!  I also
have a Yamaha PSR SX900.  I did not like the Genus because of it's weird shape.  One of the best arrangers I had
for gigs was a Korg MicroArranger but it broke and the cost of a repair was way more than it cost to buy one.
I still play 3-4 gigs each week and some days I use the SX900 and some the SD40.  I was blessed to play next
to some of the best players around in the big band days and like I said, Ketron by far has the best realistic sounds
for instruments. 
Now, this Is not to say all the others are not good arrangers because they are.  It all depends on what each player's
personal real life performance experience is and how there personal tastes swing.  None of the arrangers I purchased
sounded bad.

Hammer

[rphillipchuk]

Ok, I have been performing music professionally for 65 plus years and am now 82 and very happily retired.
As I got older some of the equipment was to heavy to carry out to 5-6 gigs a week and carry back into the house
so I moved on to something I thought  was lighter.  I still use my Ketron SD40 module and it is awesome!  I also
have a Yamaha PSR SX900.  I did not like the Genus because of it's weird shape.  One of the best arrangers I had
for gigs was a Korg MicroArranger but it broke and the cost of a repair was way more than it cost to buy one.
I still play 3-4 gigs each week and some days I use the SX900 and some the SD40.  I was blessed to play next
to some of the best players around in the big band days and like I said, Ketron by far has the best realistic sounds
for instruments. 
Now, this Is not to say all the others are not good arrangers because they are.  It all depends on what each player's
personal real life performance experience is and how there personal tastes swing.  None of the arrangers I purchased
sounded bad.

Hammer

I wish Ketron would give you an "Event" for a month or so and then have you give your thoughts on it......... You would be the perfect user to do this......

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

I think I understand Deane's words better now.
Apparently it was/is much more a weight problem than a sound quality issue.

Based upon the present very short Ketron/Event video impressions I have seen/heard up to now, it is much too early to judge this new arranger, IMHO.
Hopefully during the first quarter of 2023 we might read the first endusers' reactions.

Ketron's global market share has never been important compared to Yamaha's and even Korg's, whatever the cause may be.
The Event's first sound quality looks to be OK but its price and specs have not convinced me to replace my TY4 by this new arranger.

Cheers, JH