New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Jeff Hollande]

Hello Lee :

Let me first thank you for your critical, realistic and very positive comments as far as the Genos is concerned.
Your arranger is your much needed tool to guarantee your daily income. For us, home players, our arranger is a hobby. Two different worlds.

When a new high end competitive arranger is presented on the internet, like the PA5X and the Event, most of us are reacting differently : critical -, positive - and negative impressions.
After the first impressions, we want to know much more about their new baby and we are comparing the differences between the new competitive arranger and our Yamaha : features, novelties, appearance, quality, applications etc.
Yamaha's competitors have very good products but they are different than ours.

BUT finally ... generally, many of us have decided not to go for a competitive arranger keyboard. We are buying an other Yamaha again and we all know why.

For more than 20 years Yamaha is the global market leader. That is a fact.
Of course our keyboards have shortcomings. All arrangers have their pros and cons.
And of course Yamaha must stay sharp and continuously improve their products to keep their #1 position.
It is our duty to keep Yamaha sharp, right ? 

Even our competitors are always comparing their arrangers with ours.
They do not even hide their deep respect for Yamaha's reputation. See all video's on YouTube.
I am also respecting Korg and Ketron, nice new arrangers, but ... I prefer Yamaha.

Best regards, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks and good points, Jeff.

The one Golden Egg we Genos users have is, the competition has shown their hands early in the card game (using a poker analogy). Yamaha knows what they're up against. They are also experts at reverse engineering a competitor's product. If the Genos 2 is delayed by 6 months or a year so Yamaha can surpass the competition, so be it. We Genos users will be the beneficiaries of that technological gain, assuming Yamaha can achieve the desired results. I have faith that they can.

[EileenL]

When you are spending a lot of money you want to know what the company you are buying from has in the way of Tech support and after care services. We all know that Yamaha are top notch at this.
In the past I had very poor service from Korg and had to get in touch with the Managing Director to get my faults put right. I did not keep my Korg long after that.
Have never had dealings with Ketron and feel I don't want to risk dealings with the unknown.
  I always say better the Devil you know than not.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

When you are spending a lot of money you want to know what the company you are buying from has in the way of Tech support and after care services. We all know that Yamaha are top notch at this.
In the past I had very poor service from Korg and had to get in touch with the Managing Director to get my faults put right. I did not keep my Korg long after that.
Have never had dealings with Ketron and feel I don't want to risk dealings with the unknown.
  I always say better the Devil you know than not.

Hi Eileen
Today i listened to the Ketron up against the Genos  and  Sandra my other half immedietly said that the Ketron sounded to sharp.
The Genos sounds a lot mellower than the Ketron.
I remember when you said that my songs sounded sharp and that as i have found out was due to missing low mids.
Now i have found a program called AB Metric which compares your song to the original and you can match between  sub, lowmid, highmid, bass and high.
After the ears get used to soloing each frequency you are in the final mix ballpark.
So my latest recording will be a lot warmer HOPE!!!
I am nearly at the end of my apprentice learn curve now and hope to be an average mixer at my age, but still the master!!Lol



All the best
John

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

Making a recording, a mixing and a mastering is a very difficult job.

Today many musicians have their own " home recording studio ".
It became a huge business to sell home recording gear since the digital era took over the analogue period.

However there is a big difference between professional recording and home recording.

With a home studio one can make reasonable demo recordings but professional recordings can only be made in pro audio recording studio's.

Best wishes, JH

[Amwilburn]

I'll be blunt, the Event looks pretty cool. But even working at a music store, will I ever see one? Probably not. And for exactly the reasons stated above: there is very little distribution and service in Canada. We *did* carry Ketron a *long* time ago, and so did our local competitor until a few years ago. Both of us have dropped them. Was there something wrong with the sound quality? Not as far as I know (we dropped it before I started working here), but I was told that it was just too much of a pain to get warranty service, etc (you can imagine being told "Sorry, we have to ship this to another country so you may have to wait a *year* or longer to get your keyboard back as there is no local repair depot". It wasn't the only brand we had this issue with, same reason we stopped carrying GEM (GEneral Music); which had superior Middle Eastern sounds and beats at the time, but the troublesome service issues meant it just wasn't worth carrying.

Not that both brands had tons of issues either; it's just glaring when you have no local service depot.
Additionally, Ketron's last keyboard before the Event, the SD60? Is an eye-watering $9499 CDN. Nearly all North American retailers stopped carrying them when that happened.

[pjd]

Yamaha knows what they're up against. They are also experts at reverse engineering a competitor's product. If the Genos 2 is delayed by 6 months or a year so Yamaha can surpass the competition, so be it.

Yamaha already know quite a bit about combining audio and MIDI for auto-accompaniment. They have several patents:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patents-apr2017/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patents-summary-2017/

There was such a hue and cry about the original (and still existing) "audio styles" that Yamaha may be reluctant to pursue this approach. We'll see, I guess.

The Ketron Event does sound good and has some spiffy features to break up the monotony of auto-accompaniment. I have to go along with Mark (and others) as to North American (NA) sales, distribution and support infrastructure. It's kind of a weak sales climate for top-end arrangers in NA already -- not a good business climate for Ketron.

I do respect Ketron products, BTW.

All the best -- pj

[keynote]

The Ketron Event does sound good and has some spiffy features to break up the monotony of auto-accompaniment. I have to go along with Mark (and others) as to North American (NA) sales, distribution and support infrastructure. It's kind of a weak sales climate for top-end arrangers in NA already -- not a good business climate for Ketron.

I do respect Ketron products, BTW.

All the best -- pj

Ketron is trying to increase their meager sales and support infrastructure. As far as sales and service there are now a few affiliations in California, Connecticut, several in Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, several in New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Puerto Rico, Texas, Wisconsin, and Canada. I live in California, so if I purchased a Ketron Event I could have it serviced if need be near Los Angeles, which is around 100 miles from me. I'm not sure if Ketron provides free shipping both to and from service centers for products under warranty. There is no FAQ on the Ketron America website, and there is no way to contact Ketron America by email, since the 'Contact Us' link on the website is broken. Seems rather amateurish and archaic that there is no way to communicate with them except by phone. A professional looking and working website would draw more attention and interest to Ketron products, needless to say. Oh well. AJ i.e. Ajua Alemanji is in charge of Ketron America from what I understand and this should be brought to his attention if it hasn't already.

The Event ain't cheap but it sounds great, and it has features not found on the competition, but it also doesn't have Seamless Sound Transition/Switching that is found in the Korg Pa5X. A little bit of give and take. I agree the Saxes on the Pa5X leave something to be desired, but I'm guessing Korg and 3rd Party affiliates will offer expandable sounds including Saxes, etc., that sound superior to the factory Saxes? Also, with the Pa5X micro-editing capability, it's likely possible to improve upon the 'out of box' sounds more to your liking with a few tweaks. $5,000 for the Event is actually about a grand less than the current price of a new Yamaha Genos here in the States. When the Genos first arrived on the scene, I could have purchased one for $4,200 out the door, delivered to my doorstep. But instead I chose to buy one at a Guitar Center near me which eliminates the hassle of having to return it to an out-of-state dealer such as Sweetwater.com, etc. where I'd have to cover shipping and handling charges if I decided I didn't want it. Plus, at Guitar Center, I was able to actually play a Genos before I decided to purchase it. Buying sight unseen is a risky venture and I, for one, would rather see and play a keyboard first if possible. But I digress. Have a great weekend!

All the best,
Mike

[tyrosman]

I doubt that any dealers anywhere know a thing about a new Genos. Yamaha are very strict on who knows what and only essential staff will know anything and will risk losing their jobs if things are released before time. Dealers are the last to know anything about new launches.
  My Money is on 76 note only.

same here Eileen

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Mike :

Thank you very much for your interesting US Event information.

Up to now Ketron's European service has always been weak.
Will that change now the Event will be available as of
December 2022 ?
Only time will tell but ... even dealers and endusers seem not be convinced yet, IMO.

It is hard to believe Korg and Yamaha customers will order
an Event now the new PA5X is available and a new Yamaha high end will arrive in 2023.

JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Good points. One thing is for certain - any company who wants to go against Yamaha in the music business had better "go big or go home." Yamaha has the support and dealer network in place over much of the world. Ketron is up against two issues: 1) Producing a superior product and 2) Getting it out there so people can try it out and perhaps buy it. There's no money in a product that just sits as inventory 🤣.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Lee :

In most Event video's this keyboard seems to sound OK, seems to look well, the specs are shown but ... the product is high priced.
We do not hear one single word about their global distribution strategy, dealership and after sales service.
A very unusual commercial approach, IMO.

I think you made a proper analysis.
There are too many unanswered questions, too many question marks that might frighten potential dealers and endusers.
It feels so risky and irresponsible to spend this amount of money. No Event for me.  

JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Jeff. It does sound great but what good is that when you can't even get one 🤣?

[rphillipchuk]

Good points. One thing is for certain - any company who wants to go against Yamaha in the music business had better "go big or go home." Yamaha has the support and dealer network in place over much of the world. Ketron is up against two issues: 1) Producing a superior product and 2) Getting it out there so people can try it out and perhaps buy it. There's no money in a product that just sits as inventory 🤣.

Well Said Lee !

[mikf]

Lee , It depends on their business plan. A company with low overheads, bare bones infrasttucture may only need to sell 500 of one keyboard model to be deemed successful while a giant like Yamaha might need to sell 10,000. Ketron may not care that much about growing to compete head to head with the mega companies. There's lots of ways to be a successful business or maybe even get acquired and never need to invest in infrastructure.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Mike. The bigger they are, the harder it is to maintain market share. There have been companies bigger than Yamaha that disappeared overnight! Ketron may feel that selling 500 units is a major win for them. Gross sales sometimes mean nothing. It's "How much profit did you make?"

[usaraiya]

Got this email from AJ, Ketron sales/support:

Taking orders now until 11/15/2022 for delivery in December 2022. Cost is $4,999.00 shipped.
Next orders will be in Feb 2023 for delivery in March 2023.

KETRON EVENT DEMOS (Please subscribe to our Youtube channel for more)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igss1qU9_8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QrzAgrqR5M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpzKndCMOkg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_MbeQvpFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sakfcfkzKc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9folgah8v0



KETRON USA

"It has to sound right & tight"

[mikf]

Lee - there is also the question of focus. Yamaha do a pretty good job of dividing up the company into smaller units that focus on specific ranges of instruments, while probably still being able to leverage corporate resources at least somewhat. And I am sure that somewhere in the Yamaha org there is a middle manager that lives or dies by the Genos sales.
But to put the Genos into perspective, Yamaha make well over 100,000 acoustic pianos per year. Taking into account the average selling price of an acoustic is probably close to 5 or 6 times the selling price of a Genos, that makes Genos no more than a drop in the ocean in the Yamaha spectrum. So how much time do you think the top corporate people really spend worrying about whether or not a Ketron or a Korg arranger might impact their Genos sales?
People on the forum spend a lot of time talking about how Yamaha need to wake up and address the competition for the Genos. Do you think Yamaha as a whole spend as much time??
But Ill bet Ketron talk about nothing else.
Mike

[pjd]

I think I posted this breakdown of USA sales (by dollar volume) once before:

Fretted Products           $1,891M
Pro Audio                     853M
Wind Instruments              611M
Percussion                    374M
Acoustic Pianos               307M
DJ Gear                       264M
Digital Pianos                182M
Keyboard Synthesizer          159M
Portable Keyboards            127M
Stringed Instruments          125M
Electronic Player Pianos      100M

Market data from 2019, source: NAMM. "Portable keyboards" is subdivided by retail value:

Keyboards under $199         41.3%
Keyboards over $199          58.7%

That's NAMMs methodology, not mine. 

Compared to guitars, we're chump change. 

All the best -- pj

[ton37]

Hi @Mikf, I partially agree with you. But don't underestimate that nowadays big internationals also focus strongly on 'brand awareness' and global 'advertising'. So while this keyboard customer base may be a bit smaller, for the company it's certainly an important aspect of its global revenues throught the proces mentioned above. 
It's not always only the profit of the 'hardware' sales, 'marketing the brand' is also important.

[Lee Batchelor]

Good points, ton37 and Mike.

Spin off sales are also critical for Yamaha. I've owned several PSR and Tyros models but I've also owned a few Motif, MOX, stage pianos, and Clavinova pianos. I'm probably a drop in the bucket compared to other players but Yamaha is aware of the importance of players like me who venture into products other than the Genos. They'll do a lot to keep us guys around.

As a sidebar, I used to play a little guitar in high school. I'm thinking of picking up a Yamaha student acoustic to use in our jazz trio. Playing background piano gets boring after a while unless your name is Oscar Peterson or Diana Krall 🤣. If I do this, there's yet another side sale for Yamaha.

[mixermixer]

I think I posted this breakdown of USA sales (by dollar volume) once before:

Fretted Products           $1,891M
Pro Audio                     853M
Wind Instruments              611M
Percussion                    374M
Acoustic Pianos               307M
DJ Gear                       264M
Digital Pianos                182M
Keyboard Synthesizer          159M
Portable Keyboards            127M
Stringed Instruments          125M
Electronic Player Pianos      100M

Market data from 2019, source: NAMM. "Portable keyboards" is subdivided by retail value:

Keyboards under $199         41.3%
Keyboards over $199          58.7%

That's NAMMs methodology, not mine. 

Compared to guitars, we're chump change. 

All the best -- pj

Interesting to see whats the updated breakdown, Yamaha is having issues with supply in their Dante products in the Pro Audio spectrum. All their digital mixing consoles haven't been available for quite some time. Thinking that would take a hit.

[mikf]

My guess is that for the worldwide acoustic piano sales the number is probably about
$1.5Bn - they claim to make over 100,000 plus pianos a year. Say at about average $15,000.  Uprights maybe average $2- 3000, but grands go all the way up to 100k plus for a Bosendorfer. They make about 300 Bosendorfers per annum.
Genos worldwide sales annually - maybe a few million $$s, probably less than one days output of acoustic pianos.
Puts it in perspective.
Mike

[soundphase]

Hopefully, Yamaha has also to prepare the future and not only looks at the past financial results.

I think Genos participates to Yamaha's reputation, relatively more than its part in sales and has a big internal impact for Yamaha R&D results.
So it could have more strategic value for this.

[Jeff Hollande]

Is it realistic to think the new Genos2 price might be approx. 10% higher than the present Genos price ?
( The present Genos price already has been increased recently by 10% compared to the 2017 price due to the covid 19 problems in 2021/22, am I right ?? ).

Best regards, JH

[EileenL]

It is not realistic to think anything until a new keyboard is launched and the price is then known. Then it makes sense to talk about it. All this Will it Won't it Dose it Doesn't it gets you know where.
Just enjoy what you have and produce some nice music. Let the forum get back to what it is supposed to do and help one another get the best from what we have and enjoy trying new things. I bet half the people on here have not used all of the functions on their Yamaha keyboards that they could.

[Henni]

From that recent video about Ketron's new release, it sounds like they are using Band In A Box (BIAB) styling technology. For those who have never used this program, all you do is insert the basic chords in a song and BIAB generates the correct styling complete with stylistic chords. It can be Country, Jazz, Blues, you name it BIAB will do it. That, combined with what sounds like round robin styling, will make the Ketron a most formidable competitor to the PA5X and Genos 2. But there's more...

It's one thing to produce perfect sounds and styles on a new arranger. It's another thing to make the device usable. Many have criticized the PA5X operating system as being clunky and too tech orientated. This falls under the category of "usability." For the better part, the Genos is easy to use, other than the Style Editor being similar to a bull in China shop. If Korg and Ketron have produced a superior product than the Genos, that's one thing. If their OS system is clunky or too complicated, Yamaha has little to worry about. I'm sure Genos 2 will give these two other companies pause.

Agreed: The impression I get is that finally Ketron made an arranger that would compete with Band In a Box. They use live wave samples for the style parts with solo live instruments following your chord progressions accurately. Some thought that this could not be done in a Live environment as BIAB can analyze your song before rendering it and Event cannot.

My hat off to Ketron. I've always said that this would be the way forward for arrangers. Once again Ketron is the trailblazer is this new environment. You bet I will have one of these in the near future...

[ton37]

It is not realistic to think anything until a new keyboard is launched and the price is then known. Then it makes sense to talk about it. All this Will it Won't it Dose it Doesn't it gets you know where.
Just enjoy what you have and produce some nice music. Let the forum get back to what it is supposed to do and help one another get the best from what we have and enjoy trying new things. I bet half the people on here have not used all of the functions on their Yamaha keyboards that they could.

Hi @Eleen, your reactions to this are predictable and are also appreciated. If people are annoyed by it, they can just skip it and not read it. But don't deprive the forum members for some 'daydreaming', it's just for fun for many. It doesn't harm anyone and it keeps the 'jeu' in a bit. Usually the 'having' is the end of the pleasure... happy daydreaming ;-)

[mikf]

It is not realistic to think anything until a new keyboard is launched and the price is then known.

But it is launched and the price is known...... this thread is about the Ketron Event not the next Yamaha.
Mike

[EileenL]

This thread has been posted on the Genos section and seems to be about three different keyboards Korg, Ketron and Genos. It is Jeff that mentions the price of new Genos which of course is not known.
  Of course, knowing what else is out there is of interest to some and there have been links posted for us to see.
  I am not out to deprive anything from anyone, but I think this thread is now going round in ever decreasing circles and maybe should be moved to general chit chat.