If you're considering buying a Korg Pa5X...

[rikkisbears]

Hi Qui, the Genos styles you're referring too as being able to be converted in a matter of minutes, are they "user " styles you've created yourself for Genos, or Genos Factory Styles ?

Basically I haven't had too many problems converting early ssf1 psr styles across to Korg, but,  trying to convert some  of my Sx900 factory styles across to Korg is proving to be far more difficult  ie incompatible drum kits, program changes within a style track, incompatible voices,  basically problems that early psr styles did not have.

Love to know if you've come up with a solution for some of the problems with newer model factory styles if that's the type of styles you're referring too. 😀

[BogdanH]

...the ambient wave sequence using a sine waveform that worked really well layered with the piano. Yamaha arrangers can't do this...

hi Rich,
Yes, I listened that particular part at 14th min. and I agree that it sounds very interesting. However I disagree that we can't get similar result on Yamaha.
I have no knowledge about Pa5x and so I might be wrong... but from what I see on video, I think that sine sequence padding isn't part of the voice: it's a style (or pad) playing it. And if I'm right on that, then the question is, can we create similar style on Yamaha? I haven't tried, but I'm sure we can. And because that sine pattern is used as padding, maybe we should actually create a pad. On SX700, there's a pad Chillout (in section Arranger1)... try PAD-1 and you will hear what I mean.

I can sense that robinez is quite passionate about his keyboard and we can hear the result of that. I imagine that many things are easier to accomplish on Pa5X (for those who know how to do it!), but many times similar can also be done on Yamaha (again, if we know how to).

Here I will borrow Chris's (overover) signature:
They always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!

Bogdan

[mikf]

These voices are interesting but hardly piano sounds anymore. You can get roughly similar results on rh voices by layering, but of course, these cannot be used in styles. But then I have to ask myself how many people would feel it necessary to go to these lengths to alter a style voice. Especially bearing in mind you can add pad voices to a style anyway. And to create so many just in case you might one day find one of them useful in a style??
I guess for some people this kind of innovative voice creation is almost an end in itself, so whatever floats your boat! I just can't imagine though that the ability to do or not do this kind of voice manipulation is going to drive the keyboard choice for 99% plus of buyers.
Mike

[robinez]

These voices are interesting but hardly piano sounds anymore. You can get roughly similar results on rh voices by layering, but of course, these cannot be used in styles. But then I have to ask myself how many people would feel it necessary to go to these lengths to alter a style voice. Especially bearing in mind you can add pad voices to a style anyway. And to create so many just in case you might one day find one of them useful in a style??
I guess for some people this kind of innovative voice creation is almost an end in itself, so whatever floats your boat! I just can't imagine though that the ability to do or not do this kind of voice manipulation is going to drive the keyboard choice for 99% plus of buyers.
Mike

I agree with you, for most keyboard players this is totally not interesting at all that you can change sounds. But there is a group keyboard users (i know quite a lot of them) that are really enjoying that their keyboard is also capable of adding their own sounds and sound changes.

The Genos can do it through YEM and the korg has an open system where you can change almost anything on the keyboards itself. But it's possible for both keyboards.

And to proove that you can do it on the yamaha genos too, here is a song cover from above and beyond i made on my yamaha genos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI

[robinez]

Hi Qui, the Genos styles you're referring too as being able to be converted in a matter of minutes, are they "user " styles you've created yourself for Genos, or Genos Factory Styles ?

Basically I haven't had too many problems converting early ssf1 psr styles across to Korg, but,  trying to convert some  of my Sx900 factory styles across to Korg is proving to be far more difficult  ie incompatible drum kits, program changes within a style track, incompatible voices,  basically problems that early psr styles did not have.

Love to know if you've come up with a solution for some of the problems with newer model factory styles if that's the type of styles you're referring too. 😀

styles that are using program changes in one style track are problematic to convert indeed. I didn't came across such a style, but probably there are a few that do that. These can be converted with some extra programming, but in general when revoicing on the korg pa5x you are completely disabling the program changes in a track automatically.

Another thing that i saw when converting some of the more recent styles on the genos is that they are using a trick where they are using up till 16 midi channels where they in fact are using only 8 channels. They split up the low end of the chord / sequences and combine them with the upper part of the chord / sequence. It's easy to recognise because they are routed to the same sound in different channels. The way to solve this is to merge the two midi tracks to one. In cubase this is easy, just drag the part of 1 track on top of the other and they are merged.

But these things are very rare. Most styles are using a very standard setup and it's just a matter of renaming the labels and change 2 midi channel assignments, the revoicing can be done on the pa5x itself and that's all.

And it goes really quick, i'm amazed that the internet isn't full of converted styles because it's so easy to do. Yesterday i converted for instance: Sunhine reggae, Easy lover, Crocket's theme and Disco Inferno. That was done within 20 minutes and i had four new songstyles on the pa5x.

But i will create a youtube tutorial for it this weekend to show how to do it.

[BogdanH]

...And to create so many just in case you might one day find one of them useful in a style??...

-agree.
But I think knowing these things ("how to do it"), is good in case we are into creating custom styles/pads/voices. That is, if we wish to play particular music as close to original as possible, or if we produce our own music.

...I just can't imagine though that the ability to do or not do this kind of voice manipulation is going to drive the keyboard choice for 99% plus of buyers.

You might be wrong on that. It's the first impression that usually matters -which is the reason why professional musicians are hired to demonstrate new keyboard. When we look/listen to demo, we are impressed by result in first place and less on playing skill. Hired player actually many times demonstrates the playing as "everyone can do that" -to convince average Joe to buy the keyboard.
Similar happens in case of robinez demonstration of that particular piano sound: "sounds great.. never heard that before.. and so simple... that's my next keyboard".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Pa5X (which is on my wish list). I'm just saying that many times we're not aware what we can do on keyboard that we have.

Bogdan

[richkeys]

hi Rich,
Yes, I listened that particular part at 14th min. and I agree that it sounds very interesting. However I disagree that we can't get similar result on Yamaha...

Bogdan,
I agree with you again. There's no question that Yamahas sound great. I've only had the SX900 for a few months but Yamaha certainly gives us several options to tinker with sounds and effects, including as you mentioned, Multipads. I will check out that chillout Multipad, and yes, Styles is another way to get there, though I don't think robinez used a style in his particular piece. His Genos video posted here today is certainly interesting, he uses a style in that one.

To MikeF's point that 99% of keyboardists may not be looking for this level of sound manipulation. I think that should be revised to 99% of arranger keyboard players. Then there's people like me who appreciate arrangers but sometimes want to cross over into messing around with more synth control. Maybe this dual interest is a smaller number of players for sure, but Korg obviously thinks there's a market for it based on the control they put into the PA5X. Another option is just get a Korg Wavestate and use it with the Yamaha arranger.

Rich

[rikkisbears]

styles that are using program changes in one style track are problematic to convert indeed. I didn't came across such a style, but probably there are a few that do that. These can be converted with some extra programming, but in general when revoicing on the korg pa5x you are completely disabling the program changes in a track automatically.

Another thing that i saw when converting some of the more recent styles on the genos is that they are using a trick where they are using up till 16 midi channels where they in fact are using only 8 channels. They split up the low end of the chord / sequences and combine them with the upper part of the chord / sequence. It's easy to recognise because they are routed to the same sound in different channels. The way to solve this is to merge the two midi tracks to one. In cubase this is easy, just drag the part of 1 track on top of the other and they are merged.

But these things are very rare. Most styles are using a very standard setup and it's just a matter of renaming the labels and change 2 midi channel assignments, the revoicing can be done on the pa5x itself and that's all.

And it goes really quick, i'm amazed that the internet isn't full of converted styles because it's so easy to do. Yesterday i converted for instance: Sunhine reggae, Easy lover, Crocket's theme and Disco Inferno. That was done within 20 minutes and i had four new songstyles on the pa5x.

But i will create a youtube tutorial for it this weekend to show how to do it.

Hi Qui,
thank you,
I'm going to have to change the music genres I play, haha. The styles I like to play  seem to be the ones that aren't easy to convert.
Animation Fantasy , uses   2 different bass voices in intro 3. Changes from one instrument to the other in the middle of intro. Suppose just a case of compromise, pick an instrument that sounds ok throughout. 😀

Nowadays I only do the ones I desperately need. Fortunately with the 1.2 update my old  style conversions are finally playing back correctly ,  was dreading that I might have to redo them. 🥺

A tutorial would be great for users.

I'm still using xgworks for my conversions. Good enough for my purposes. Saves learning something new.😀

Thank you

[robinez]

Bogdan,
I agree with you again. There's no question that Yamahas sound great. I've only had the SX900 for a few months but Yamaha certainly gives us several options to tinker with sounds and effects, including as you mentioned, Multipads. I will check out that chillout Multipad, and yes, Styles is another way to get there, though I don't think robinez used a style in his particular piece. His Genos video posted here today is certainly interesting, he uses a style in that one.

you are correct about this, the Time demo was to show how the piano would sound in a complete song, that Time backing track i've created in Ableton, where i played a complete ambient version of that song and transfered that to the pa5x.

The Genos demo from above and beyond was played with a style. There I used the style, piano sound, pad sound and a multipad that adds the solo voice to that part of the song.

The most interesting piano in that pa5x demo was the Ocean piano in my opinion, that piano uses a General midi SFX sound (ocean) where i added a specific ADSR pattern on top of it drowned in a reverb. As you may know i'm a huge ambient sound fan and this is the kind of pianos i used the most.

The sine addons are also something I really like (listen for instance to Cosmic baby songs on youtube, these are all based on sine beeps and a mixture of ambient and classical influences). In the pa5x you can easily create your own Sine based Arpeggiator patterns, just press record new pad and play your new arpeggiator and save it to your custom library. Then you can use it whenever you want and this way you can have access to 4 arpeggiators at the same time and you can assign 20 arpeggiators to a song to choose from as long as you don't use more than 4 arps at the same time. Extremely powerful.

Here is an example of a pa5x style where i added a custom sine based beep arpeggiator to the style with that method. It a cover of the song Resurrection from PPK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RIUza4p7rM

[Whitecolin11]

I have both keyboards my overall impression is previous Korg owners can`t accept this is a totally new format and as such needs to looked at as such.
The genos led in terms of modern styles the Korg a richer sound.
My daughter commented that the Genos sounded like it was recorded in a studio Where as the Korg sounds live.
Some of the work done by Robinez and chello set it apart from the genos.
Ease of use is similar if your prepared to do your homework.
The Korg overall is better for now, but we will se how Yamaha responds.
One thing however that may make a decision is, Genos follows the previous generations in how to do things. The Korg does not, so you have to start learning from scratch and as we get older were not prepared to do the hard yards so Yamaha will appeal to more people

[robinez]

Korg Pa5X tutorial: Convert Yamaha styles to Korg styles

I have a Genos and a Pa5x, so I thought it was a good idea to create a tutorial how to convert Yamaha styles to Korg.

In this video I will show you how easy it is to convert Yamaha styles to full Korg Pa5X styles (works also the same on the korg pa4x).

We will take a Yamaha song style and convert that in realtime to a Korg song style.

timetable
00:00 DEMO: See See Rider
00:32 converting a yamaha style to korg
04:10 setting the correct korg labels
07:30 export to a korg midi file
09:00 create the style on the korg Pa5X
13:47 mixing stage: modify the levels and effects
18:22 DEMO: end result

You can find the tutorial over here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYeas-GcTpM

[richkeys]

The sine addons are also something I really like (listen for instance to Cosmic baby songs on youtube, these are all based on sine beeps and a mixture of ambient and Classical influences). In the pa5x you can easily create your own Sine based Arpeggiator patterns...

The sine beep voice is an interesting accent to the piano. I just wanted to point out that the SX900 does not seem to have any sine patches like that, unless I missed it. But I also have the Dreamscapes pack and found a voice in it called "Sine Lead" that was somewhat close to your sine sound.

Bogdan was correct in his earlier comment in this thread in that you can create something like this on Yamaha. I was able to record a simple multipad phrase using this sine lead and it works nicely as a background element to an ambient piano along with an appropriate ambient style. I suspect it's easier to do this via the Yamaha multipad versus attempting to do a wave sequence on a PA5X, which I have no experience doing. I am however getting a frustrating few seconds gap of silence when the looped multipad plays back, and not sure how to fix that. Perhaps I am not doing the record and stop procedure correctly.

Rich

[robinez]

The sine beep voice is an interesting accent to the piano. I just wanted to point out that the SX900 does not seem to have any sine patches like that, unless I missed it. But I also have the Dreamscapes pack and found a voice in it called "Sine Lead" that was somewhat close to your sine sound.

Bogdan was correct in his earlier comment in this thread in that you can create something like this on Yamaha. I was able to record a simple multipad phrase using this sine lead and it works nicely as a background element to an ambient piano along with an appropriate ambient style. I suspect it's easier to do this via the Yamaha multipad versus attempting to do a wave sequence on a PA5X, which I have no experience doing. I am however getting a frustrating few seconds gap of silence when the looped multipad plays back, and not sure how to fix that. Perhaps I am not doing the record and stop procedure correctly.

Rich

it's easy to create a sine based beep sound from your sine lead, just go to sound edit mode and lower the sustain and release. With the decay you can set the length of the sine beep.

the gap of silence is probably caused by the cv length. Set the length accordingly to your pattern. Or you can cut parts out of your cv length in the edit menu.

[BogdanH]

As topic title says: "If you're considering buying a Korg Pa5x"...
I saw Pa5X (61keys) in my local store and even I was extremely in hurry, I couldn't resist not to take a look on it. A guy there was very friendly and even I told him I'm in hurry (only taking a peek), he fired it on and so I spent there about 15min's... which means, that's not even a first impression. But still it it was impression enough and maybe worth to share that with those who are "considering" and don't have a chance to put hands on it. Btw. they also have Korg Pa1000 and complete current Yamaha arranger line.

Visually looks Pa5X darn good and gives a higher class impression (wooden side panels give that little extra). If comparing to Genos... Let me put this way: when Genos was introduced, it had very specific design, which was kinda standing out among other keyboards. The problem is (I think), design was too much different and because of that it ages very fast. And in a few years, it can happen it will be seen... as oldtimer. On the other hand, Tyros still looks good after all these years -because of it's normal design.

Keybed.. At starting playing I noticed immediately that keys are (much) wider and that can be a problem for those coming from Yamaha -yes, it happened to me I missed the keys because of that. I assume keys have width of classical piano and so that's actually good news for real pianists. Anyway, I'm sure that after certain time one can adapt to new width.
Next thing that surprised me, is the fact that keys are much harder to press than on my SX700 and also harder than on Genos. No, they don't have hammer feel or similar -they're just harder to push. To be honest, as an amateur, I prefer the lighter key feel on my SX700. My personal verdict (by keeping in mind that we don't only play piano voice): among arrangers, Genos has the best keybed feel. Sidenote: keybed on Korg Pa1000 is just terrible (it feels very cheap).

As I mentioned, I only spent about 15min's behind Pa5X (playing piano voices) and so I can't talk about sound (voices) quality. I never tried Genos and so my comparison is related to PSR keyboards. Pianos on Pa5X sound very good and much better than pianos built in PSR's -but then, that shouldn't surprise anyone. I think Japanese grand piano used in Pa5X sounds very similar to Yamaha CFX (or C7), so here Pa5X and Genos might be equal. But Pa5X has an edge still: it has actually more pianos (Austrian, German, etc.) built-in and not only different settings of the same samples.

My summary... current prices now are about 3800€ for Genos (incl. speakers) and 4200€ for Pa5X. There can be no doubt that Pa5X is technically better. But is also quite different and so there are things where one need to adapt. That's also true for those coming from Korg midrange keyboard series (here I have keybed in mind). But then, adaptation will probably (hopefully) be also needed if/when Yamaha introduces Genos successor.
In short: If it would be possible right now, I would get Pa5X without thinking twice.
Disclaimer: I have a right to change my mind anytime in future 

Bogdan

[robinez]

Keybed.. At starting playing I noticed immediately that keys are (much) wider and that can be a problem for those coming from Yamaha -yes, it happened to me I missed the keys because of that. I assume keys have width of Classical piano and so that's actually good news for real pianists. Anyway, I'm sure that after certain time one can adapt to new width.
Next thing that surprised me, is the fact that keys are much harder to press than on my SX700 and also harder than on Genos. No, they don't have hammer feel or similar -they're just harder to push. To be honest, as an amateur, I prefer the lighter key feel on my SX700. My personal verdict (by keeping in mind that we don't only play piano voice): among arrangers, Genos has the best keybed feel. Sidenote: keybed on Korg Pa1000 is just terrible (it feels very cheap).

good observation!

This is indeed true, the korg keyboards are using standard width keyboard keys, the yamaha keyboards are using a different form factor, they are smaller then on other keyboards or piano's. I had quite some problems on the yamaha genos when i started playing on my Genos, i'm so used to the standard width that it took some time to adapt. Also the weight of the key feel is something you never hear from others and this is true, the korg keyboard feel is semi weighted, it's somewhere between the weighted keys of a piano and the light synthesizer key feel. I'm used to it on the korg keyboards and it gives me a lot of dynamic control with the benefits of the light feeling of synthesizer keys. But when I play on my Genos I always hit those keys too hard, so I've used a different velocity curve for the Genos so that my harder hitting won't have that much effect.

So I fully agree with your observations. It takes some time to adapt to both keyboards.

Next time you are testing the korg I would highly suggest to take a look at the styles, they have a very different approach with their styles then yamaha, on the korg keyboards you have to work harder because the styles are more sparse, but it gives you more room to do your own things while playing the styles. It's a matter of preference but this preference is in my opinion the main difference why somebody would choose for a korg or a yamaha.

Korg always gives away quite some new styles, in the latest update they have added 35 new styles (with several famous songstyles from bruno mars and ed sheeran and more). I have a video with those new styles on my channel.

Here you can find it to hear how the new korg styles sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNzB268MDAM