A question about the genos gain

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
In my quest to improve mixing i have been told several things about how to prepare a Genos recorded song to transfer to Cubase 12.
I have noticed that i have to put the Genos volume to over three  quarters up to get a decent  gain to get somewhere near to turn the midi tracks to wave so they can be mixed.
Eileen once said that she was told  to not to have compression on when recording on the Genos by Yamaha. (correct me Eileen if i am wrong as that was some time back).
The thing is when you gainstage in cubase on some instrument tracks you still have to push the gain up sometime 12 to 15db.
This can cause a noise floor which can be audible.
What i am saying----- Is the Genos gain for recording midi to onboard sequencer in that compressor? If you just turn that volume up do you turn the gain up and a higher recording quality. No noise floor.
Also is that a good idea or bad.
It would of been nice on the Genos to have had  a recording gain to get max 18 luf's so gain staging is a minimum and no noise floor.
I can get the noise floor out with Izotope Rx and we know that Audacity is great at cutting noise out of a recording.
Getting this stage right will cut a lot of messing about.
What are your thoughts on this.

All the best
John

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  As you know I record everything live to Midi on my Genos. I then do any sound adjusting panning, reverb etc. and then record into Audio and that is it. I have always been happy with the results and have never used anything but my keyboard to do this. I personally do not use compressor for this.
  We are all different in how we want to use our keyboards. I buy mine just to sit and play and relax. Never owned a computer when I first started. I played out for quite a few years where people wanted to hear what you could do just playing. They always liked what they heard so I have continued this way. I never have tried to copy original songs as I always like to do them my way. That is part of the fun of playing for me.

[jwyvern]

Hi John,
You can use the gain on master compressor or master EQ to get more oomph if required. To help find which is the better to use (if there is any detectable difference between them) you could save boosted user settings and try them. For EQ I would probably try taking my standard settings (they are very close to Flat) and turn each of the db's up a fixed amount above standard. Guard against using too much and getting distortion.
I am never sure of the logic of advising against using the compressor. If the comp gives a more pleasing sound to the ears then why not use it to condition the recording? It should be possible to save with minimum compression but have the gain up somewhat if you need to try it, and compare results against using EQ.
JOHN

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen   Hi J Wyvern
I do not want to use compression when making recording for  Cubase.

I always  import a flat  song into Cubase up to now and compression comes later
I am very close now with all the ups and downs along the way and any other Cubase 12 owner out there, i would appreciate your views

I know you record and enjoy the moment on the Genos which is great.
I have nearly got to where i am almost satisfied , but little things keep me wondering.
What i am really getting at is why do we have to turn the Genos volume up to 20past the hour to get anywhere near a match for Cubase 12.
I always have to up the decibels to even get to a pre mix standard of 18 Luf's.
Cubase 12 has pre-gain channels for each track and that is how you crank it up to the mix level or stereo input channel if everything is almost where you want it.

Midi is midi and there is no pre gain for it as it is information and when it comes to recording each track to wave , the Genos has to be whacked up to nearl full round the volume knob.
It is just getting the right signal in without creating a noise floor
You can record on the Genos , but to me it never comes out what you expect when you try on a stereo Hi- Fi, car, etc.
I remember with the Tyros 5 making a recording, but it always needed attention in Audacity like limiting and then boosting the volume.
I personally want to get my recordings near as possible  and i am not to far away. It is just the little nuances now that make the difference.
Eileen said that my recordings sounded a little harsh and i appreciate the criticism as that is what i ask for. I always value critisism  as it drives you onwards.
It is those things that have to be addressed to get warmth in the music and have to look into those mids, lower mids etc.
I am now getting the hang of multiband compressors and Izotope  Ozone 9 is a big learn curve to master the insides of each module.

Al the Fun of the Fair!!! .

[rbackes]

Hi John,

gain depands on your soundcard or whatever you use to get the digitized sound into your DAW. As far as I know, Genos output levels are more like consumer HiFi Equipment (-10dbu) than proffessional studio equipment (+4dbu, balanced). So you have to adjust the inputs of your soundcard accordingly. I would use Aux-Out as these Outs allways have the same level (they sit before the Master Volume). Then you can adjust the gain of your soundcard accordingliy.
I personally prefer to use the digital output (SPDIF). This output has a resolution of 24 bits and no noise. In your DAW you have to boost that a bit, as the absolute level for normal use is quite low (~ -6 to 12 db). But this headroom is needed, just imagine all 256 sample-players play a very load sample at the same time, that sums up quite a bit. On the other side, you can level up the digital output by max. +12db - but this shifts the bits only a little to the left.

Rainer

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

I  am not sure at the moment whether i have sussed it.
I may have had the wrong settings in my Focusrite mixer.
All this time i thought it was going well , but after looking at a video ,i went "Oh No!!
I shall test my system again tonight
I had monitor 1 & 2 as the final output  and Daw 3 and 4 for headphones
Now you see the new configuration for Cubase
Now monitor output is for heaphone socket 1 and for Cubase. It has two functions hence many popping up in the output meter i think.
Now i can move the Daw 1 and Daw 2 slider up and now it is much louder to what i had, so i hope that output can send out a better gain for recording.
I am not the best expert on tech things , but i learn slowly and live by the sword.
Any one experience focusrite as it can be confusing configuring those smart red foxes, i mean Boxes really!! siily boy!!
Later i will try the 48000kz setting.
The below picture of settings seems to be a lot better. It was just a couple of tweaks that i missed out on for a long time.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Michael Trigoboff]

Later i will try the 48000kz setting

Only the 44.1 kHz setting works with Genos.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi  Michael
So that one is out then.


All the best
John

[pjd]

Hi John --

Hope these comments help. I assume that your Genos main LINE outputs are connected to compatible LINE inputs on your computer audio interface. As rainer mentioned, connecting apples to oranges is problematic.

LINE output circuits are designed to produce an analog audio signal referenced to a particular voltage, etc. Going from LINE out to LINE in, the appropriate maximum signal is achieved at 0dB.

I had an occasion to measure the output signal of various synths, including Genos, using a signal meter -- an LED bargraph referenced to 0dB.

I found that Yamaha designs the synth outputs to hit the 0dB point when the Master Volume (on the front panel) is in the three o'clock position. (This is true for the Casio CT-1000V, too.) When gain staging, I would set the Master Volume to the 3 o'clock position, then set gains down the signal chain from there to achieve 0dB.

There's a little bit of additional headroom in the Master Volume control, but not much. This is typical. People on the Yamaha synth forum like to rag about this, but Yamaha's design is spot on. It's not the synth's job to produce an outrageously hot signal prone to distortion.

Of course, there is the issue of the test signal itself. If the test signal has a lot of transients, then look for peaks topping out at 0dB. I tested with organ and French horn (!) because they give a fairly steady output signal.

As to LUFS (or LKFS), I wouldn't worry about that until mastering. It's really a concern for post-mix mastering for final distribution.

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

As to compression, I work and record with the Master Compressor turned ON and set to the Natural preset. The Natural preset produces only modest amounts of compression and I don't find it offensive or an impediment to later mixing. Master EQ is set flat.

The Master Compressor is a parallel compressor and is not like a pumping EDM side-chained compressor. More info here:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-master-compressor/

I did a few experiments and the Yamaha compressor presets are tuned to produce a well-behaved 0dB output. (Master Volume in the 3 o'clock position.)

Yes, one can crank the Master Compressor output. The LINE out exceeds the 0dB point and eventually sounds distorted as $%&%$#. Not recommended. Better to mangle the sound in Cubase and not an abused input over-driven by Genos. 

Hope this helps, too -- pj

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi PjD

Thanks for your great explanations and now i can see the picture more clearly now.
I did have my Focusrite 6i6 not configured at 100% and now finding as you say with volume dial at three '0' clock that even with a low sound i am only about 5 db out at the most at the gain stage in Cubase.
Before i did not have the focusrite mixer configured as it should be , but it still worked .
it was not until i saw a video that it explained everything in the way i understand.
The headphones double up with the daw setting using socket one  and socket two is for another set of heaphones. So the config is different to what i had.
I am not sure what many settings means on the output channel in the mixer, but it has to be more than one.
It works and i am now in the ball park.
It is hard to explain when i am not an electrician or thank god i am not running a railway network
I do not know whether it is me yet , it feels that things are more clearer or fuller ready for mixing.
I have been battling with noise floor and slight lack of body in some of my work and have been going around in circles.
Now that the signal is better the noise floor is gone and things are now within the reach of 18 lufs.
I knew something was wrong for a long time but could not put a finger on it until that focusrite video.
One thing when trying to attain a great recording and learning we never seem to get those secrets that make everything a success as i have heard some Genos demos with tip top recordings and i am convinced you can achieve this with the vst units around today.
It is fun learning  and rewarding when you break barriers but it all takes a long time to grasp.

All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

A few related questions, if I may.

1) You are talking about recording. What about live performance? I route my Genos through a SoundCraft mixer and out to two powered Bose Pro 8 speakers. Should I run my Master Volume control on the Genos up to 3:00 as well, and reduce the gains on the SoundCraft Mixer to the appropriate volume? Does it work the same way?

2) Sometimes I route the Genos directly into the Bose Pro 8 speakers. I set the speakers at 12:00 on their volume controls and find for most shows that if I run the Genos Master Volume control to about 12:00, I have lots of volume. For solos in louder bands, I run the Master Volume control on the Genos to 1:00 or 2:00, depending on which solo instrument is chosen. Is this a good choice?

Thanks 👍.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
Sometime back i wondered all about the gains and looked at a few videos on UTube.
I looked at that German guy from Yamaha, Bartmans i think.

I tried to look at the Genos as he was playing and he had his volume knob up at Three quarters or 3 '0' clock when he plays live.
That seems to be the sweet spot..
After a slight reconfig on my VST focusrite mixer and putting the Genos on record, now i am finding that gainstaging is where i want it without putting the gain up in Cubase by too many db's.
Is it right to say if you record with a stronger gain within the limits it will create more body in the recording?
If that is so it would cut a lot of big sweeping moves when mixing.
I am not an expert on the tech side , but slowly getting the idea.


All the best
John

[overover]

Hi all,

I recommend setting the master volume control to at least 12 o'clock and a maximum of about 3 - 4 o'clock. For live performances, I adjust the Input gain of the external mixer so that it just doesn't clip even when I turn the master volume (Genos/Tyros5) all the way up. For the sound check I then set the master volume of the keyboard to 12 o'clock, but during the performance it can happen that I have to increase it to about 3 - 4 o'clock.

For external audio recording, I recommend a master volume on the keyboard of 3 o'clock.

By the way, the MAIN outputs of the Genos have a better sound quality than the SUB / AUX outputs because 32-bit D/A converters are used for the MAIN outputs. (All other audio outputs "only" use 24-bit D/A converters.)


Best regards,
Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the help, guys! I was close. I play a big show tomorrow so, I'll give it a try. Thanks again...

- Lee

[pjd]

1) You are talking about recording. What about live performance? I route my Genos through a SoundCraft mixer and out to two powered Bose Pro 8 speakers. Should I run my Master Volume control on the Genos up to 3:00 as well, and reduce the gains on the SoundCraft Mixer to the appropriate volume? Does it work the same way?

Hi Lee --

Yes. I hit the PA board at our church this way -- 3 o'clock. My signal goes into a direct box first. No complaints from the audio staff.

As to question 2, I find it best to produce a full 0dB LINE signal at the source and then adjust down the signal chain. The experiments that I mentioned in my post were preparation for going direct into the church PA.

Hope this helps -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, PJ. It sounds like I should sound check my loudest solos with the Genos set at 3:00 and pull back the Pro 8 speakers to suit.

I use them for stage monitors. I absolutely detest mono keyboard amps that are placed on one side of me. How anyone can play that way is beyond me. Even quality, full-range monitors don't work for me. I place my two Bose speakers behind me and off to each side a bit, with the extenders removed. That way, I can enjoy the quality stereo sound of the Genos and not blast my ears or those of my band mates 😁.

Thanks again...

[mixermixer]

I don't have a genos but I record WAV on my SX900 and previously my S770. I then import to FL studio which is my DAW and enable the normalizing feature on the file. This gets me the levels I can do for mixdown, yeah its weird why the levels recorded are so low... Don't know if cubase has a normalizing feature ?

On one occasion, I did record a tyros 2 in stereo, but everything was left in default, including the compressor (if it had one inserted). sounded fine to me back then, didn't notice anything weird.

[pjd]

Thanks, PJ.

Hi Lee --

Probably should have mentioned the reasoning behind gain staging. Every time a signal is amplified, the noise is amplified, too. So, starting out with the strongest possible signal reduces the need for further amplification (gain) further along in the signal chain.

Yeah, I hear ya about monitors live. I was hoping to leave an external monitor at home and hear myself in the church PA. That works OK if I'm the only one playing. (My max level is set to support the full congregation alone.)

Most weeks, I'm playing with our pianist and I'm staring down the barrel of a 7 foot Petrof. Can't hear myself in the PA wash and if I do, I'm playing waaaay too loud and out of balance with the piano. So, I'm using a tiny Bose Soundlink Color which is just enough to hear what I'm doing over the piano din.

Our sound staff have locked in the instrument levels at the board (mixer) and can make only small adjustments. Thus, we become responsible for own dynamics.

All the best -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Interesting, PJ. I tried an experiment when practicing for tomorrow's show. I ran my Genos through my UR-44 sound module, and out to my Yamaha HS-8 monitors. This is my standard way of practicing. I turned the Genos up to 3:00 on the Master Volume and the sound was distorted. I guess the UR-44 can't handle that much input?

[pjd]

Just glanced at the UR44 manual. Which input(s) are you plugged into? The inputs have different signal requirements. Further, the input gain needs to be set appropriately, i.e., peaks at 0dB. The inputs on the front panel have gain knobs. The line inputs on the back are LINE, but the level needs to be set via the Setup software.

Maybe someone with a UR44 can offer further advice?

This issue should havr a simple solution — pj

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee --

Probably should have mentioned the reasoning behind gain staging. Every time a signal is amplified, the noise is amplified, too. So, starting out with the strongest possible signal reduces the need for further amplification (gain) further along in the signal chain.

Yeah, I hear ya about monitors live. I was hoping to leave an external monitor at home and hear myself in the church PA. That works OK if I'm the only one playing. (My max level is set to support the full congregation alone.)

Most weeks, I'm playing with our pianist and I'm staring down the barrel of a 7 foot Petrof. Can't hear myself in the PA wash and if I do, I'm playing waaaay too loud and out of balance with the piano. So, I'm using a tiny Bose Soundlink Color which is just enough to hear what I'm doing over the piano din.

Our sound staff have locked in the instrument levels at the board (mixer) and can make only small adjustments. Thus, we become responsible for own dynamics.

All the best -- pj

Hi PJ

That is what i was talking about as i made the mistake with my focusrite mixer not configured to it's best settings.
Now that has been rectified, no more noise floor in the recording and Three '0 clock on the dial brings me in the range of -18 to max  -24 Luf's depending on the strength of the instrument or sound it is.
Now with the lowest type of sounds it is only  up to 6 Luf's  max. Mostly the sounds are hitting around 18 Luf's area.
Once you get that the noise floor is solved and now a stonger recording getting the gain right.
With live playing which i do not do there are problems all over the place with different shaped venues, but i suppose with todays tech you can make templates for the regular places like EQ etc.
It is all those little things that make the big difference and it is great everyones views.



All the best
John

Another Heatwave coming to the UK!!  . I suppose a new Genos is out of the question as China wants all the Chips!!
Russia wants all the Micro Fish  " It's all going Ze Ping" ! I wonder what Rocket man is up to??

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi pjd,

I use the Line inputs 5&6 on the back. I have yet to find the Setup software. Thanks 😀.

[Christophermoment]

Hi pjd,

I use the Line inputs 5&6 on the back. I have yet to find the Setup software. Thanks 😀.

Default is the 'C:' drive, Program Files (x86) > Steinberg > UR44,   dspMixFx_UR44.exe . Or using Inputs 3 & 4 gives you gain control on front panel.

[Lee Batchelor]

Default is the 'C:' drive, Program Files (x86) > Steinberg > UR44,   dspMixFx_UR44.exe . Or using Inputs 3 & 4 gives you gain control on front panel.

I looked there and there's no such file. I did a search of the C drive for UR44.exe. None exists. Further thoughts? Thanks.

Edit
I'd be tempted to use the 3 and 4 line inputs as per your suggestion. Thanks again 👍.

[Christophermoment]

I looked there and there's no such file. I did a search of the C drive for UR44.exe. None exists. Further thoughts? Thanks.

Edit
I'd be tempted to use the 3 and 4 line inputs as per your suggestion. Thanks again 👍.

Sorry Lee, I should have been clearer in my typing. The full program name is - dspMixFx_UR44.exe  - . A search for UR44.exe will return nothing. If you can't find it maybe it got deleted or didn't install correctly. Here is the link to re-download. 

https://o.steinberg.net/en/support/downloads_hardware/downloads_ur44.html

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Christopher. I'll do a file search for that exact name.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
Spend a couple of  hundred Dollars and get a new generation Focusrite, They are rock solid and quality.
I am still on the 6i6 first generation and Focusrite still supply driver updates. The units are built like a tank.
Always quick response if you have problems , not like Steinberg support that never reply. Only the forum

All the best John

[MadrasGiaguari]

Hello Eileen,

you said:

"I record everything live to Midi on my Genos....and then record into Audio"


Do you mean that after recorded in Midi (and after all adjustments) you CONVERT the Midi file ito a n Audio file? If this is the case, how can you do that on Genos?

Thank you,

Angelo

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Eileen means record midi file in the Genos sequencer and then record that to wave file and make sure the meter is only just kissing the red.                                         
I send mine to Cubase and edit and split the Genos take into separate tracks for mixing and to finish
A lot of people record on the Genos and bump it up in Audacity.

All the best
John