This is the Real Deal Trade your Genos for You Know What!!!

[stephenm52]

I'm not counting on a new Genos anytime soon. Would I like to see a new Genos, sure I like new arrangers.   I've had plenty of new keyboards at this point in life I'm just enjoying what I have now and continue to work on new material.  At my age and at the young age I've lost many friends if I wait too long for a new Genos I may not be alive.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Stephen :

I understand.

I have the impression nobody believes Yamaha will come with a new arranger soon.

It is what it is ... and I have to move on. Amen.   

JH

[EileenL]

I think you will find the majority of us are still enjoying our Genos Keyboards and will have them set up the way we want them. From what I can see a lot of valuable playing time has been wasted with all this speculation on what will be and what will not.
  Come back to us when you have your new Korgs and Yamaha's and interest us with what is and not what you thought it would be.

[Graham UK]

Feelings...Another Nice Left Hand.

I have been playing my left hand like this for a few years.
This standard is encouraging me to do better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OitMiMOpeXk

[ton37]

Hi EileenL, why are you stressing that everyone is still enjoying their Genos? That is not claimed or is it not the case? This 'pinned' post is about the Korg/Yamaha similarities, differences, technical innovations etc. etc. ? Not about Genos or any other model being 'better or worse'?
And, don't worry about how I plan my time. One reads, the other responds.. It's a forum, isn't it? 

[Lee Batchelor]

To Eileen's point, I find the Genos to be more "ageless" than any Tyros or PSR I've owned. Those keyboards became stale after three or four years, as I learned new material for the stage. I'm in four bands at the moment and we play Motown, Light Jazz, Country, Blues, Swing, Oldies, and a few other genres I can't even name. The Genos has not been taxed to its limits yet. It still meets the bill. My fellow players are still amazed at its sound.

If Yamaha puts that kind of immortality into the Genos 1, it should be interesting to see what they come up with for Genos 2 !

[Duffy]

I think you will find the majority of us are still enjoying our Genos Keyboards and will have them set up the way we want them. From what I can see a lot of valuable playing time has been wasted with all this speculation on what will be and what will not.
  Come back to us when you have your new Korgs and Yamaha's and interest us with what is and not what you thought it would be.

Hi Eileen,
We too, are still enjoying our Yamaha keyboards, in my case, the Genos.
I have considered buying a PA5X and may still do, but that doesn't cut me off from my Genos at all.
It sounds as though we are regarded as being on the outside of the group because we have been complimentary about the Korg.
I also use 3 modules (not all at the same time) whilst I play my Genos but this doesn't make me a traitor in any way.
I know what I want to sound like and I just do my best to achieve this.
It's all about enjoying music and life and sharing that with others, and we don't have to stick rigidly to a certain keyboard to do that.
We don't want splitting into 2 different groups because we like a pudding as well as a meal.
I will not have to come back because I will not be leaving whilst I still breathe.
I don't understand why this conversation must be all or nothing when we all have the very same interests and pass our time doing the same thing.

[EileenL]

I am no way suggesting that people leave because they have different keyboards but do remember this is first and foremost a Yamaha forum and whilst I don't mind hearing about what else is out there, four pages of something that gets no where is a little of putting. The same thing is being repeated over and over and that is when is Genos 2 coming out and hope it has this and hope it has that. My answer to this was enjoy what you have and the future will take care of itself.

[ton37]

Hi Eileen, you are free to skip reading all those nonsens if you want! That is why it is in one topic.
Allthought, thinking over about this subject (pa5x) on a Yamaha forum I think most is said, so not an important remark😃 but I quit from this discussion. 🤔😏😎

[pjd]

The same thing is being repeated over and over and that is when is Genos 2 coming out and hope it has this and hope it has that.

For better or worse, this is human nature.  I'm old enough to worry about repeating myself... 

All with a large grain of salt -- pj

[stephenm52]

Hey Stephen :

I understand.

I have the impression nobody believes Yamaha will come with a new arranger soon.

It is what it is ... and I have to move on. Amen.   

JH

Hi Jeff,  If by any chance they release a Genos 2 we will all have a nice surprise.

[stephenm52]

To Eileen's point, I find the Genos to be more "ageless" than any Tyros or PSR I've owned. Those keyboards became stale after three or four years, as I learned new material for the stage. I'm in four bands at the moment and we play Motown, Light Jazz, Country, Blues, Swing, Oldies, and a few other genres I can't even name. The Genos has not been taxed to its limits yet. It still meets the bill. My fellow players are still amazed at its sound.

If Yamaha puts that kind of immortality into the Genos 1, it should be interesting to see what they come up with for Genos 2 !

Lee,  Although I'm not playing in any bands I agree with all you wrote.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

The interrelationship between Yamaha and Korg seems to be a lot better than I ever have thought it was. 

I have always believed both companies were real competitors. 

I apologize for not being aware of this important information.

To quote Wikipedia :
Yamaha Corporation has always been a major partner of Korg, supplying them with circuitry and mechanical parts.


Best regards, JH

[musicman01]

Dear forum members,
There has been a discussion here about the better or worse keyboard for a while now, and I wish this and that in future keyboards etc... .
I think very few people understand how difficult it is to more or less meet customer needs. The current top-arranger keyboards, mainly Yamaha & Korg which are at a very high level and excel in sound quality, it is very difficult to make the instrument sounds even better, the current "Articulation" functions in Tyros 4,5-Genos , Korg Pa 1000-3x-4x-5x is a good example of this but has its limitations. For example the comment of someone who said that the Sax in Pa5x was nothing, let a real saxophone be played by 5 different music sides, it will sound 5 times different! For example, phrasings that are performed on acoustic instruments can only be imitated to a very limited extent on a keyboard.
A final example are the drums, the Revodrums in Yamaha & Round Robin drums in Pa5x. Although the drums in Pa4x were already very good compared to Genos, Korg has built this in too, you can see that brands are looking to each other to stay close to each other when it comes to competition.
We as customers can only benefit from it.
As for the arrival of a possible Genos 2, if Yamaha doesn't even finally make an effort to properly take care of the outside and keyboard and like Korg brings good Pianos and finally good organ drawbars on board, they can better stick to the current Genos and bring some good updates. Yamaha has the technology in CP and YC models. On the other hand, if Korg still does what has been proposed for the new Pa5x, Yamaha will have to shift up a gear if they don't want to lose customers. Korg already had a very good Midi to Style converter in Pa4x (Creatorbot), a very extensive Sound & Style editor, etc., things that were interesting for the more professional music side. These things and several others will be available again in the next Korg Pa5x upgrades. So Yamaha be warned!!!!

[Duffy]

To reply to both Jeff, and Musicman,
I also didn't know that Yamaha and Korg worked closely together but I am certainly glad to hear it because there must be good spin-offs in both directions, which can only benefit us all.
For my part, this conversation has never been about "the best" or setting Yamaha & Korg up like a couple of prizefighters.
Both companies produce brilliant keyboards (and so also, do Ketron & Bohm) but none have got everything absolutely right yet as Genos organs and sound glitches prove.
My first love was Technics, especially the great KN7000 and I have also owned a few Roland's and Ketron's.  I still use Roland & Ketron modules with my Genos.
Since I couldn't replace my KN 7000, I have had Tyros3 Tyros 4 and Genos and, over time, have always been used to working with registrations. (the 10 memories on Genos is perfect).
I do agree that Yamaha need to move quickly to address the few failings on Genos to avoid losing customers to Korg.
It seems that Korg also, have been lax in not incorporating form the start, their midi to style system and their Style editor.
To sum up, I don't wish to upset Yamaha lovers or anyone else and those who think Genos is the absolute bees knees. It's very nice to be happy and contented with what you have.
I, like many, are on the quest for the most perfect board and, whilst there are shortcomings, we are impatient for them to be put right.
Long live Yamaha, Korg, and yes, Ketron & Bohm too and thanks to them all for giving us all such pleasure.
Certainly no hard feelings to anyone I have disagreed with. I just want to enjoy myself and throw all my money at keyboards.

[mikf]

Eileen
As I said in an earlier post the emergence of a new keyboard doesn't change anything about the existing keyboards. If Genos was a great keyboard before, it still is now. If you loved it before, you should surely still love it now.
But the reason this thread has attracted so much attention is that despite initial skepticism, it is becoming clear to even the most dyed in the wool Yamaha arranger players, that this new Korg is an exceptional product. I don't think there is much doubt that while it may not be better than Genos in every regard, overall it is definitely setting a new standard for arrangers. And that is important news to people who play and love arrangers, and makes it a legitimate thread even in a Yamaha forum. Will it turn a poor player into a great player, of course not. But it will make many players feel they have a better tool in their toolbox.
As someone who has been a leading proponent and pretty expert on arrangers for many years I am a little surprised that it is not also of great interest to you, but of course that is your prerogative. You may feel the thread has been overdone, but the fact is that new information on features and capability of this Korg keyboard is emerging almost daily. One of the things that impresses me is that they have addressed so many things that are of real benefit to typical arranger players, and not succumbed to the constant demand for features from a minority of players to make arrangers more competitive with workstation/ music production equipment.
How will Yamaha respond, and how long will it take? None of us know. Meanwhile most of us will carry on playing what we have, a few will buy the new Korg, but overall the world will stay the same. It's just a discussion thread, not a war.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Now that I found out there is an interrelationship between both companies, I made a mistake by underestimating the PA5X.
Sorry, Guys !

In my country the dealers, like in most other Western countries I guess, are selling both brands.

The customer is the only decision maker.
From now on I will respect her/his choice, promise.

Best wishes, JH

[EileenL]

Well Jeff at one time Korg shared the factory at Yamaha Milton Keynes and then Korg moved on to there own premises. In a way they have always been allies if you like to call it that. This is why you will find many similarities in both keyboards but of course named and described differently.

[mikf]

People should not read too much into prior Yamaha /Korg relationships. Yamaha bought over Korg back in 1983, which might explain the shared factory in the UK for a short while. But that situation did not last long as Korg purchased back all their shares over 25 years ago.
Since that time they have been completely separate and competitors in the electronic keyboard market. 
Although Korg have a deserved reputation in quality electronic keyboards, they are a very modest company compared to Yamaha, with maybe a few hundred employees. Yamaha are a mega corporation with between 25,000 and 30,000 employees, and dwarf Korg. Many Yamaha divisions and subsidiaries stand alone are many times bigger than total Korg. It is normal that many other companies including Korg will buy parts from Yamaha industrial subsidiaries. But that is not cooperation, just standard trading practice, and I have no doubt that in electronic keyboards Korg and Yamaha are fierce competitors and remain quite secretive from each other on design and manufacture.
Electronic keyboards are a significant, but by no means massive part of Yamaha in total, while Korg are 100% dependent on their electronic keyboard sales. Whether the PaX5 is a great keyboard or not, has nothing to do with a Yamaha connection.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you for much for this historical arranger keyboard information, Mike. Very interesting !

Both companies have worked intensely together in the past.
They are both Japanese and located in the same country.
Apparently they know each other very well, have a good relationship and are sharing the same ( export ) customers.
Korg, a dwarf compared to Yamaha, are a very modest company with a well deserved reputation in quality electronic keyboards. 

Yamaha are a mega corporation. I wonder if/when Korg will ever become 100% Yamaha.

Best regards,
JH

[stephenm52]

Yamaha are a mega corporation.

Best regards,
JH

Jeff, They sure are.  Where we live in a golf cart community Yamaha is by the far one of the most popular golf carts you see people driving in.  When I think Yamaha I normally think pianos and keyboards but they make many other products.

[DerekA]

Jeff, They sure are.  Where we live in a golf cart community Yamaha is by the far one of the most popular golf carts you see people driving in.  When I think Yamaha I normally think pianos and keyboards but they make many other products.

In this video, Nick from Sonic Labs has a wander through Yamaha's internal museum. There are a lot of musical instruments, but also some other unexpected products like tennis rackets! Worth a look, if only to make you drool over all those synths ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=defrQ8_Q1yU

[mikf]

Thank you for much for this historical arranger keyboard information, Mike. Very interesting !

Both companies have worked intensely together in the past.
They are both Japanese and located in the same country.
Apparently they know each other very well, have a good relationship and are sharing the same ( export ) customers.
Korg, a dwarf compared to Yamaha, are a very modest company with a well deserved reputation in quality electronic keyboards. 

Yamaha are a mega corporation. I wonder if/when Korg will ever become 100% Yamaha.

Best regards,
JH

Jeff - you are trying to see something which isn't there. Maybe to justify changing your mind about Korg. My experience of mega corporations - at the small keyboard division in Yamaha some employees will definitely be talking about Korg, but at the top corporate level, I bet they don't spend 10 seconds thinking about Korg. Why would they?
Both Japanese - irrelevant. Hundreds of companies have the same nationality that are fierce competitors.
Sharing the same customers - irrelevant, what else could they do?? All car companies, all aircraft manufacturing companies share the same customers, all Oil companies share the same customers, what does that mean? Nothing, except they fight each other like crazy to get more of them.
Were once owned by Korg - yes but it didn't work out. Korg separated as soon as they could. My experience of mergers and takeovers at mega corporations ( which is extensive) is that when a corporation has tried it once and gave it up, they seldom, if ever, try it again. So answer to your question "when will they be 100% owned by Yamaha", ......they are zero owned now and I cant see that changing. They tried it once before and that's usually enough.
Mike

[pjd]

As far as being Japanese companies is concerned, one shouldn't forget the moribund Japanese economy which lasted decades. For more info, search on "Japan Lost Decades". The banks were in dire straits and were bringing companies down with them.

If a European or North American capitalist saw a competitor struggling to survive, they would pop a champagne bottle and hope for the worse. Japanese companies compete fiercely, but also understand the need for competition to support the national good. (Recovery from WWII is not that far back in the rear-view mirror.) Yamaha and Korg combined and cooperated in order to survive during the lost decade(s) even though they are very different companies and with different corporate cultures.

One sees co-opetition today as Japanese companies cooperate to recover from the Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM) factory fire.

There is a bit of different thinking in the Japanese business community as far as survival is concerned.

Just my point of view -- pj

[soundphase]

I consider this Pa5X downloads one of the better ones.

Fascinating the way his left hand plays an added extension of his right hand.
Interesting technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo

I found another video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jseKl9qFDwA

Here, I found the automatic bass perfectly follows the good chords, although Alois Muller sometimes plays full chords, sometimes individual notes, with his right and his left hand. He would have a pedal keyboard (like on an electone), it would not be better. The "full AI fingered mode" seems really good on the PA 5X. (but the sounds are not so good ...)

[Lee Batchelor]

I found another video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jseKl9qFDwA
Here, I found the automatic bass perfectly follows the good chords, although Alois Muller sometimes plays full chords, sometimes individual notes, with his right and his left hand. He would have a pedal keyboard (like on an electone), it would not be better. The "full AI fingered mode" seems really good on the PA 5X. (but the sounds are not so good ...)

I don't know...those strings and brass sound darn good to my ears! If the 5X can sound that good, it should be interesting to hear Yamaha's response .

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

As soon as one of our members has received her/his PA5X, I would highly appreciate to read her/his first objective impressions.

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this arranger compared to the Genos ?

Personally I am also interested in hearing her/his findings of the new VH compared to Yahama's VH2 ( that might need an upgrade, IMO ).

Thank you in advance, JH

[EileenL]

If and when you hear all this Jeff and you like what you hear will you rush out and buy one. Then you can also tell us about it.

[Duffy]

It appears that many prospective purchasers are holding off for a while because the PA5X does not yet have the brilliant and easy to use, Korg version of Yamaha's Style Creator and also the Midi to Style converter, both of which are on the PA4X.  Despite that, anyone who wants one will have to wait because no one has spare stock and can only take orders.
I am still very interested but, like others, still dependant on how long to wait for the complete deal.
Can Yamaha deal with the shortcomings of the Genos ( Hammond Organ that sounds like YC61 one, seamless sound switching and the ability to copy into all 10 registrations at once rather than one at a time) before the Korg reaches full completion. They have had a 5 year start.

[EileenL]

Why would you want to copy into all ten registration in one go when you have to create what voices and variations you are going to use in a song as you go along.