I need someone to clarify something for me. Same sound chip as Genos?

[Dievas]

I need someone to clarify something for me.

Does the SX900 and A5000 have the same sound engine as the Genos?

Second question:

Is there anything the SX900 and A5000 can't do and the Genos can? I mean technically at the level of editing sounds, styles, etc.

Thank you very much.

[richkeys]

I don't know the specific sound chips in each one, perhaps someone else can verify. But the piano on the Genos is a CFX grand. That is a more detailed piano than what's on the SX900. According to my research, generally speaking, many of the sounds are going to be similar between the two, with the Genos sounding higher quality due to its better hardware.

[EileenL]

Genos also has After touch and SA2

[DerekA]

All the current Yamaha arrangers use the same basic engine called awm which uses samples, with filter and volume shaped by envelopes, and modified by DSP. A single note can use up to 8 samples, known as elements.

The main difference in Genos is SA2. This means the system automatically selects different start and end parts to the samples when you play a note, to get more complex transitions. For example inserting a short slide up into the next note when playing octaves on a trumpet.

Genos and tyros have ensemble but thats more about allocating voices to notes, rather than affecting the actual sample playback.

Genos has more wave samples, and can support more dsp at once, but the actual sound engine is the same on all the keyboards excluding SA2.

[lmederos]

FYI, you can add the CFX Grand voice.

[richkeys]

FYI, you can add the CFX Grand voice.

I haven't seen an official Yamaha CFX grand expansion for the SX900. I've seen other pianos offered from Dynamix Audio and CMS, but not a Yamaha CFX grand.

[danand]

Check this video demo. There is an Expansion Pack for YEM compatible Yamaha arrangers (including SX900 & A5000) including, among many other  Piano sounds (50 Piano sounds in total), the "CFX Piano" form Montage. Basically the same as the "CFX Piano" from Genos

[DerekA]

Remember these expansion packs are just adding more wave samples, they are not adding new capabilities to the AWm engine.

I think the OP is more interested in how the arrangers vary in their technical capability. And they don't really, they are all based on the XG specification.

[Dievas]

Thank you very much for your replies. It has become clear to me that the difference with the Genos is in the hardware and in the SA2 voices. On the other hand, I think there is nothing technically that my A5000 can't do and that the Genos can. Can Genos record arpeggios from the style creator as well?

[pjd]

Adding to what Derek has posted...

Yamaha's mid- and upper-level products use the same tone generation integrated circuit: SWP70. Genos has two SWP70s and PSR-SX900 has one SWP70. Genos has a total of 6GBytes (4GB+2GB) wave memory and SX900 has 2GBytes. The Genos main DAC is 32 bit (AK4490) and the SX900 main DAC is 24 bit (AK4396).

Those are the key hardware-level differences in tone generation that most people focus on.

When Yamaha folks discuss "sound engine", they refer to a software layer above the hardware layer. The software layer has different capabilities; the software layer differentiates arrangers from synths. As others mentioned, Genos has Super Articulation 2 (Articulation Element Modelling). S.Art2 is a key differentiating feature in Genos.

Yamaha Expansion Manager (YEM) provides deeper voice editing when used with Genos. YEM does not support S.Art or S.Art2 voice editing.

Hope this info helps -- pj

[Amwilburn]

Additionally, even if 2 keyboards use the same 'chip', their onboard sound libraries (as Paul said, the sound engine) are different (with Yamaha anyway... interestingly with Korg, the PA700, PA1000 and PA4x have the exact same preloaded sounds, but with very different sample ram and hardware configurations).

Is the SX900 and Genos rom (preloaded) sound library the same? No. Are the A5000 and SX900 the same? No; in fact having all of them side by side, the sx900 is more or less a Tyros 5 with all the SA2 sound stripped out, and a Live! version of the Revo drums on Genos thrown in for compatiblity, basically an entire hardware generation behind Genos (which is what they always do). The A5000 is unusual; all the previous Oriental arrangers were based on the mid level e.g PSRA3000 based on s770, etc but the A5000 actually uses the PSRsx600 sound library, but adds a *ton* of Middle Eastern specific sounds (insanely detailed Oud's and Arabic Drum kits).

Is there anything the Genos can do that they can't? the sx900 doesn't have Kino strings (particularly noticeable are the spiccato strings), doesn't have the resonantor guitars, doesn't have Revo drums, doesn't have the same detail in the piano. But on the other hand the sx900 and A5000 have built in speakers, which the Genos does not. The Genos can do multitrack ping pong recording (you can keep overdubbing with a new live layer while playing back a previously recorded layer) or you can multitrack 2 stereo passes for a single song (all of the PSR's can only do a single take, although the sx600 includes an audio interface). The Genos has SA2 voices for phrasing, the PSR's don't. In fact, *none* of the Sounds that the Genos introduced over the T5 are on the sx900, except the paired down live versions of the revo drums. In fact the sx900 and A5000 both have a *lot* more drum kit options than the T5, the latter even having exclusive oriental Revo kits.

The Genos (and T5) can also do ensemble mode, which is great for some specific applications.
Chekc out its use in my Raiders Theme video at 2:06 until 2:20, when I switch back to normal R1+R2+R3 playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GqrFFM_I0g

The same section of my Raiders registration on boards that don't have ensemble mode sounds clunkier, and a lot less delicate.

That's not even including the 3GB of available sample area (actually 3072 mb) versus just under 1GB for the sx900 and A5000.


And yes, as Paul pointed out, don't discount the 32bit digital audio converter on the Genos vs the 24 bit ones on the PSR's.

[Lije Baley]

Hello!

I won't talk about the voices or what one keyboard has and the others don't for one simple reason – I just don't know any of that stuff! 😊

I will, however, offer a different perspective on the matter, from a manufacturing standpoint. Two products, one high-end, the other low-end, can have many parts in common. It is more sensible for a manufacturer to do so because it makes the production more efficient. Let's assume it's some kind of a chip we are talking about. The manufacturer will order thousands of it and in some cases, tens of thousands of it. The more they order, the price per unit is lower. The chips arrive from a single supplier which in turn saves cost on shipping and packaging. Because the same chip is used in a range of products, it's easier and faster to design a universal "interface" for the chip that can then be used throughout the product range. Then it's time to install the actual chip (typically done by self-guided machines). Because the chips are stored on rolls and loaded as such into the machine, the machine has to be reloaded only after the roll has been spent, not because some other chip has to be loaded. Finally, the manufacturer (at least a reputable one) will hold a certain number of chips on stock for aftersales customer support.

What's more, the manufacturer will design the circuit board in a way for it to be upgradeable so that it can be used, with minor modifications, in a future product. That means even more chips can be ordered and the price per unit drops even further.

As a general rule, the bigger the manufacturer and the number of manufactured units, the manufacturing will be something along those lines. It's rarer with small-manufacture and "boutique" manufacturers although not uncommon. What is common among those small manufacturers is to depend on larger ones for parts or even fully manufactured electronic parts (populated circuit boards that only require final assembly into the product), although such small manufacturers would never admit to that.

Cheers,
Antun

[pjd]

a different perspective on the matter, from a manufacturing standpoint.

Spot on, Antun!

Although Yamaha is now fabless, they design their own tone generation integrated circuits (both with and without an embedded host processor). They need to get that investment back, so parts like the SWP70 are used in several different products: synths, arrangers, digital pianos. Same can be said for the SSP series which also appears in mixers and (Steinberg) audio interfaces.

Even though Yamaha sold its semiconductor fab, it retained its manufacturing equipment business. They make and sell the manufacturing equipment mentioned by Antun. Yamaha are a manufacturing juggernaut!

-- pj

[Lije Baley]

Spot on, Antun!

Although Yamaha is now fabless, they design their own tone generation integrated circuits (both with and without an embedded host processor). They need to get that investment back, so parts like the SWP70 are used in several different products: synths, arrangers, digital pianos. Same can be said for the SSP series which also appears in mixers and (Steinberg) audio interfaces.

Even though Yamaha sold its semiconductor fab, it retained its manufacturing equipment business. They make and sell the manufacturing equipment mentioned by Antun. Yamaha are a manufacturing juggernaut!

-- pj

Hi PJ! Great information!

Yes, Yamaha is a powerhouse known for manufacturing many things we do know and many things we do not know!

Here's a fun fact – they develop acoustically-tuned exhaust systems for high-performance motorcycles (and not just their own!) and automobiles! It's truly astonishing what these manufacturing giants can do.

Cheers!
Antun