Backup snag...

[Rich Z]

So today I figured maybe I should do a backup on the Genos, since I have been going through a bunch of styles and segregating the ones I really like so I can find them easier.  BTW, the number of styles you can mark as a FAVORITE is quite small. And perhaps arbitrary as well?  But perhaps that little brick wall was setting me up for the bigger one I hit today.

Anyway, I put in the USB stick I had allocated for backups and went into the Genos menu to run the backup routine. First time I have done this, BTW.  So I initiate it and it is chugging away for a few minutes while I am wondering just how long this is going to take.  No sort of display indicating that little detail, so I am wondering if I should just let it run and come back later on.  Well, that got answered in a pretty abrupt manner!  I got an error message pop up -> TOO MANY FILES EXIST IN ONE FOLDER TO EXECUTE THE OPERATION.  WTH?? More info, please?   So yeah, I went ahead and tried it again, but of course I got the same thing.  No offer from the Genos to let me know exactly which folder is the problem, much less giving me some sort of option to bypass the offending folder and at least backup the rest of the system.  Dead stop!  No backup for YOU!

So again, WTH??  If you can create a folder on the Genos with a particular number of files, then don't you think the backup routine SHOULD be able to save them too?  So what am I supposed to do now?  Either try to guess which folder or folders are going to cause the Genos to choke and die on that backup request, or just plan on doing WITHOUT making ANY backups of the Genos whatsoever?  Forever?

I have been alternating between days where I think the Genos is a great instrument, and other days when I am scratching my head thinking "surely Yamaha could have done a lot better than this?"  Guess what kind of day today was?

[Fred Smith]

Yes, Genos should be able to backup anything it can store.

As a workaround, I never use the keyboard's backup procedure. I just copy the files to my computer, using USB Storage Mode (PowerON + Playlist button). This method has never failed me.

Hope this helps,
Fred

[overover]

Hi Rich,

The internal Backup function of the Genos is relatively inflexible. I also recommend simply "forgetting" about this feature.

To backup the internal User drive, connect the Genos to the PC or Mac in USB Storage Mode and save the desired data (either all files or just certain files, as you wish) to the computer and ideally from there also to an external drive.

It is best to create a "Genos Backup" main folder on your computer and a separate subfolder for each backup, which is named with the current date (e.g. "2022-02-09").

This way, you can save full backups or just back up specific folders/files, whichever you prefer. It's relatively quick and you'll rarely have a problem.


Important: Backup of the System settings:

Please also save the three Setup Files "System", "MIDI" and "User Effect" (in "Menu > Utility > Factory Reset/Backup > page 2/2 > Setup Files) from time to time on a USB stick and copy the files then also on the computer (again in a folder that is named with the current date).


P.S.
Even if the Genos User drive is relatively large, nobody is forcing you to save "everything" in the User drive.

It is much easier to work with USB sticks in particular (preferably with only one stick at a time, at most with two sticks at the same time). In principle, you only need the User drive for Audio recordings and perhaps for frequently required Registrations / User Voices. And of course all Expansion files, apart from the Voice Wave data, are in the User drive.

You can quickly and easily make backups of USB sticks on the computer and also make a 1:1 copies of the sticks so that you can use it in an emergency.


Best regards,
Chris

[ckobu]

Hi Rich,
The number of files in one folder is limited to 2500. This applies to all files and subfolders in one root folder. That's why the mistake you mentioned turned out to be.
Fred and Chris have already given good advice. Check out these two videos in which I described how you can make a backup. Choose the way that suits you best. Include English subtitle.

How To Backup And Restore Data In One File
https://youtu.be/qiAZ8Yowqk0

Backup as multiple individual files
https://youtu.be/W0GhgoXf3gk

[EileenL]

I work with a 64Gb USB in the underside USB port. Everything I save on User I copy to this drive. Then I regularly remove this USB around once a Month and copy to Computer hard drive. This way I have two back ups.

[Lee Batchelor]

Eileen, are you saying that the USB underneath the Genos is your primary backup, and then you copy it once a month to your PC in case the USB fails? Do I have that right? If so, I assume you use the Copy and Paste function instead of the Backup function, which sounds rather sketchy according to our resident experts?

That's clever for gigging musicians. If we're on a gig and something goes amiss with the User drive, we can play the show from the USB drive and not know the difference.

Thanks.

[Rich Z]

Hi Rich,
The number of files in one folder is limited to 2500. This applies to all files and subfolders in one root folder. That's why the mistake you mentioned turned out to be.
Fred and Chris have already given good advice. Check out these two videos in which I described how you can make a backup. Choose the way that suits you best. Include English subtitle.

How To Backup And Restore Data In One File
https://youtu.be/qiAZ8Yowqk0

Backup as multiple individual files
https://youtu.be/W0GhgoXf3gk

I am pretty sure I don't have anywhere near 2500 files in any given folder or subfolder. That would mean 250 PAGES of files. That in itself would be a real hair puller at times. But I will check again when I get a chance.

Hmm, does Yamaha count the files in subfolders as being a continuous count for the parent folder? There were some larger file banks that I segregated into subfolders via alphabetical order. But if Yamaha still counts them as being files in a continuous space for backup purposes, well.... At least it helped get rid of that gawd awful "Checking..." issue earlier.

Thanks for the links to the videos.  I will take a look probably later tonight.

Perhaps Yamaha suffers from a problem I see quite frequently.  Engineers and coders should be REQUIRED to actually use the products they are designing and programming.  Or at least don't allow them to production beta test their own work.   

[ckobu]

Yes, Yamaha counts files in subfolders as a continuous count for the parent folder.
When you make a Backup via USB Storage Mode and transfer all the files to your computer, check how many files you have in each root folder. And I was surprised at my Genos that there are so many of them. Check out this topic and my post.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,61213.msg470125.html#msg470125

[EileenL]

Hello Lee,
I have had Yamaha keyboards since the PSR6700 came out. With the Tyros range I have always backed up the Hard Drives to computer regularly with no Problem.
With Genos it is so much easier to use a USB for this. If I make any alteration existing Styles Registrations or Songs Midi Or Audio on User memory then I just copy that alteration to the USB stick as well.
  I don't sing or use any other internal midi settings. I just sit and perform and it works fine for me and many of my UK friends.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the confirmation, Eileen.

[Fred Smith]

I am pretty sure I don't have anywhere near 2500 files in any given folder or subfolder. That would mean 250 PAGES of files. That in itself would be a real hair puller at times. But I will check again when I get a chance.

You won't be able to check this on the keyboard, as it displays only filtered results (ie, just the registrations in the folder, or just styles).

You need to check it on a computer. You likely have extraneous files in the folder which is adding to the file count.

Yamaha counts each file in the folder plus each subfolder (not the files in the subfolder; a subfolder just adds one to the count).

Cheers,
Fred

[Michael Trigoboff]

However you decide to do your backups, make sure a copy of them is stored at some other location than your house. If your house burns down and your backups burn up along with your keyboard, you might as well not bothered to do backups.

I currently store my backups in the cloud (e.g. Microsoft OneDrive, Apple iCloud, etc). Before these cloud services were available and I wasn't working from home, I used to store backup disks in a file cabinet in my office.

[Rich Z]

However you decide to do your backups, make sure a copy of them is stored at some other location than your house. If your house burns down and your backups burn up along with your keyboard, you might as well not bothered to do backups.

I currently store my backups in the cloud (e.g. Microsoft OneDrive, Apple iCloud, etc). Before these cloud services were available and I wasn't working from home, I used to store backup disks in a file cabinet in my office.

Well, I can guarantee that if my house were to burn down, worrying about saved files for my Genos would be very far down on the priority list of things I should be worried about.   

To be perfectly honest, if I were to lose the Genos in a fire, I am not even sure I would buy another one. This just isn't as finished and polished of a product as I had expected it would be. Way too many rough edges for my tastes. If this was a $500 Casio, then I would have figured I got what I paid for.  But for $6,000?? Nah... Yamaha could have put a whole lot more effort into this, for the price, IMHO. For instance, having to remove your hands from the keyboard before changing voices to keep from having unpleasant surprising noises pop out during a transition is just insane. I shouldn't have to concentrate to keep a keyboard from making puking noises.

As for the continuing saga of backups, the other day I tried getting my Genos to talk to my PC over in the same room, with no success.  Reloaded the driver a couple of times.  Even disconnected the USB cable completely during a re-install just to see if the driver install cared.  It did.  Didn't like that.  I can see the speaker symbol in my list of devices, and all indications (according to Windows 10, anyway), it is "working".  Just can't connect to the Genos as a remote storage device.  Tried a couple of different cables, and different USB ports on the PC, all to no avail.  I am writing down a list of different cuss words to use to see if that helps next time I try fiddling with this.

Is there something I need to set on the Genos itself?  I looked but couldn't find anything obvious.  Odd thing is that when I was doing the Expansion stuff, it worked just fine with the wireless option  transferring files. Is there a way to make the Genos look like a remote file storage device via wireless?  I honestly didn't even think of trying that earlier than just right this moment. 

[EileenL]

If you want to save files or move them on your computer you need to connect with a cable from keyboard to computer.

[overover]

Hi Rich,

In order to use the USB Storage Mode, NO special driver needs to be installed on the PC/Mac.

Just connect the USB-to-Host terminal of the Genos to the computer using a USB type AB cable and open Windows Explorer (or Finder on Mac). Then press and hold the [Playlist] button while powering on the Genos, and the Genos User drive should appear on the computer as a new removable drive. (It might take a little longer the first time as the computer might install its own driver internally.)

Of course, it doesn't hurt if the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver is also installed on the computer, but USB Storage Mode would work without it.


Best regards,
Chris

[Amwilburn]

Incidentally, even though yes, you can put  2500 files into a directory including all of its subdirectories, the original 255 files per folder limit came from a single byte limitation. Which is how storage worked in general (when Fat16 came along, it was 512 files in a single folder. With Fat 32, it's 65,534 and now with NTFS it's 4 billion, but way back in the early days of floppy disks it was 255 or 128, depending on the os.

Anything more would overrun the folder directory and you'd get the "TOO MANY FILES EXIST IN ONE FOLDER" error.



It *was* kinda silly that they let you keep saving files though, instead of warning you that the next file would exceed the folder limit

Mark

[Rich Z]

Hi Rich,

In order to use the USB Storage Mode, NO special driver needs to be installed on the PC/Mac.

Just connect the USB-to-Host terminal of the Genos to the computer using a USB type AB cable and open Windows Explorer (or Finder on Mac). Then press and hold the [Playlist] button while powering on the Genos, and the Genos User drive should appear on the computer as a new removable drive. (It might take a little longer the first time as the computer might install its own driver internally.)

Of course, it doesn't hurt if the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver is also installed on the computer, but USB Storage Mode would work without it.


Best regards,
Chris

Ah!!  I just stumbled on this video a few moments ago showing that procedure of rebooting the Genos to set it up in that mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyD_uIcYmCY

I guess there is a good reason why Yamaha chose this method rather than just allowing the Genos to talk to a computer as soon as the USB cable is plugged in and both devices are active.  But cold booting the Genos seems kind of strange and not at all elegant.  Is the Genos sensitive to USB cables being plugged in and/or unplugged while "hot"?

[Rich Z]

Well, apparently the keyboard trick to put the Genos into remote storage device was the magic key I needed.  Seemed to work like a charm then to backup all the files to my PC. Of course, with backups, you never really know if they worked until you REALLY need them to work.  But I'll test that with a few files sometime later on. At least I was able to get this to work when I was told the magic incantation needed to be used. 

Thanks!