I'm still Wating for Genos 2

[GregB]

When you say "improve the sustain of the piano sound" do you mean changing the sound so that the sound decays to silence more slowly after the key is released?

You can easily do this on any Yamaha arranger model by slightly increasing the "Release" value (= Release Time) in the EG (Envelope Generator). See also the attached picture.

You can either save the changed voice in Voice Edit / Voice Set as a User Voice, or you can memorize it directly in Registrations.

What I'm referring to is how well the sound sustains while the key is still pressed - the Decay value.  That EG setting works for a lot of voices, but not for some, including the concert grand piano voice.  The decay happens a bit too quickly on my S950, which makes some playing styles feel very "empty" in comparison to playing on a real piano, and the EG settings don't seem to change it.  As I mentioned, I haven't tried this on a newer board yet.

My work-around, which I use for other reasons too, is to underlay the piano voice with a SmoothTines voice that has been darkened using EQ and touch sensitivity shifted so it's not as strong compared to the main voice at higher velocities.

- Greg

[Fred Smith]

Didn't Yamaha solve that problem on the earlier keyboards like the Tyros? If they did, why has it lingered or resurfaced on their top arranger? It is a pain in the backside for sure. You can almost blow speakers with some of the audio artifacts created by switching too soon!!

No. The problem has existed on every keyboard that supports DSPs.

Cheers,
Fred

[soundphase]

No. The problem has existed on every keyboard that supports DSPs.

Cheers,
Fred

Not sure, but I think Korg resolved this by doubling resources (polyphony, dsp, ...). I don't remember the model. There were video showing smooth transition.

[Lee Batchelor]

No. The problem has existed on every keyboard that supports DSPs.

Cheers,
Fred

Funny. I never noticed that on my T5. Perhaps I didn't use as many Reg transitions back then as I do now. Fred, the fix at the moment is to make sure you take your hands off all keys before punching down the next Reg button? Thanks.

[Fred Smith]

Funny. I never noticed that on my T5. Perhaps I didn't use as many Reg transitions back then as I do now. Fred, the fix at the moment is to make sure you take your hands off all keys before punching down the next Reg button? Thanks.

It was there on the T5, Lee. I'm aware of the fix.

Cheers,
Fred

[mikf]

I think of useful sustain on piano more as how fast the sound falls off when using the sustain pedal and find that it is generally not great on all digital pianos, not just the arranger.
Maybe the sustain on the Genos could be improved but regardless of cost, I have never found a digital yet that has great sustain compared to a decent real piano. But it also varies a lot between 'real' pianos. So my CVP seems better than my old PSR but not as good as my real Yamaha Grand, which in turn is not nearly as good as my Shigeru Grand.
On an arranger I assume it also is affected by polyphony. 128 polyphony might seem a lot, but if the sound is stereo that effectively halves, then take into account all the accompaniment notes and you might start getting drop out if you use the sustain pedal while playing especially if you sustain big multi note chords eg playing full keyboard piano over a style.
Mike

[overover]

... On an arranger I assume it also is affected by polyphony. 128 polyphony might seem a lot, but if the sound is stereo that effectively halves, then take into account all the accompaniment notes and you might start getting drop out if you use the sustain pedal while playing especially if you sustain big multi note chords eg playing full keyboard piano over a style. ...

A small note on this: For models that are based on the current Yamaha SWP70 tone generator chip (e.g. Genos, PSR-S970/770/975/775, PSR-SX models, PSR-A5000, CVP-809, DGX-670) the specified polyphony applies to both mono and stereo voices (i.e. it is not halved for stereo voices).


Best regards,
Chris

[soundphase]

It was there on the T5, Lee. I'm aware of the fix.

Cheers,
Fred

Not sure it's exactly the same situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXaZRvlRIHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZjiky2DGWM

[Amwilburn]

It was absolutely there on the T5. In fact, at least going back as far as the T1/CVP309, which is the first generation I started really making a lot of Registrations for.

*Ironically* it wasn't an issue going even further back (before they used samples and dsps. When the sounds were nearly all synthesized, there was no cutoff sound during patch changes). As many on here have pointed out, it's due to changes in DSPs (esp output levels which can vary wildly), relative sample playback volumes (they differ for each voice), and various other factors like the inherent decay/sustain of the sample.

Can you work around it? Yes, but it requires making and paging through twice as many program changes; you *can* minimize it by volume leveling between registrations and making sure the DSP's stay the same or are swapped out from right1 to right 2 (as Capser shows in his vids) but you have to mentally remember to do that while making the registration; it's bit more work to do it after you've already created it. I usually don't bother, unless there's a really  noticeable 'click' between them while I'm making the reg, *then* I'll make an in-between.

for the Kronos video (2nd one) they did the same thing as Roland did: double the number of DSP's as sound channels, so that you can keep the old sound channel active with a sustained old sound, and assign the new DSP to the 2nd sound. But wait, wouldn't *that* be defeated if you were to page sounds very quickly? (on a couple of my demos, I switch back and forth 4 times in less than a single bar). Yes, it would be. I forgot which one, but I tried "patch remain" on a workstation and it actually prevented you from switching too quickly.


Mark

[MadrasGiaguari]

I love my Genos, and believe it is the best arranger currently available on the market.
Nevertheless I miss some important features of my previous keyboards.
I know that somebody doesn't like comparison with other brands. But comparison is a normal factor to improve a product in modern market (cars, smartphones, computers, ecc.). Just think about the Apple Macbook keyboard, that became a kind of benchmark and has been imitated by mostly all brands.

So said, I had various Korg flagships, and I could mention many features that are missing in Genos.
But here i like to concentrate on a few STYLE EDITING easy features, that help to save time and encourage creativity. I would love to see these features on Genos, as I experienced for years how significant they are (I will use Genos terminology for better understanding):

1.   In PLAY mode, you can access a window ("Drum mapping") where, for each single variation, you may instantly change the basic drum sounds (as kick and snare) and then save in the style, without even entering the Style Edit mode. One may select from 7 levels of drum accompaniment (from softest to richest), and you may also select the kick and snare sound, from many. 

2.    In PLAY mode, you can access a window ("Mixer Tuning") where foe each track (Chords, Pad, Phrase, ecc.) you may change the octave (-3 +3), then save in the style, without even entering the Style Edit mode. This is specifically convenient for the Pad track, but also for Guitars and Pianos tracks.

3.   In Style EDIT mode you may COPY/erase not only single parts of a style (as it is in Genos Assembly function), but also full variations (all tracks together), or else a single track in all variations. This can be done within the same style or from another style, at your choice.

4.   In Style EDIT mode, you may modify (both in real time or step by step) not just the Drum and Percussion tracks, but any other track (Bass, Chords, Pad, Phrase, ecc.), without having to start from scratch (as it is in Genos, where you waste the factory programmed accompaniment of that track that you would partially modify).

These few features increase enormously the style editing productivity and time, with obvious consequences on your creativity. I KNOW that there are computer software to do it. But any feature/function allocated in the keyboard makes things much easier and fast.

Ciao,

Angelo

[jimlaing]

On my wishlist is drawbar or 'gammond' organ improvements - perhaps integrating their own YC-61 (organ keyboard) tech into the Genos 2?

-Jim

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Jim!! I know an arranger can't be all things to all people but the organs REALLY need work.

[MrSteveVee]

Interestingly, I was reading a thread about arrangers a few days back and the guy mentioned how difficult is is now to purchase the Korg PA4X, and he mentioned that Thomann no longer have the product for sale. He was speculating that a new Korg arranger announcement was imminent. If that is the case, I should think that Yamaha will be looking extremely closely on what is revealed (assuming the do not know it already lol) and how much the new Korg arranger will impact their sales.
I would assume that Yamaha have several prototype arrangers in development at the moment with variation on hardware specs but still with (I so so SO hope not) the same old clunky operating system and will fine tune the final specs based on what Korg announces and how it gets received   

[svpworld]

I'm not waiting for Genos 2, because Genos is everything I need and more.  There's still a lot I haven't explored on this amazing keyboard, sounds, features, styles.  As long as there are occasional firmware updates to fix any issues spotted, and maybe a few nice little features added here and there, I'm going to be very happy for a very long time.  To be honest I cannot imagine what else Yamaha could add that couldn't be done through software and new voice updates. Genos was a BIG investment for me, so I'm keen to get plenty of use from it.   I know sometimes it's easy to get 'bored' with a product and then just lust for the next, but Genos provides impeccible sound quality, a beautiful action 76 note keyboard, aftertouch, a huge touchscreen, physical controls, sub display, plenty of storage, lots of USB ports, WiFi, fast CPUs... what more could I ask for.

[Mike2]

Yes, I agree with everything you said about the Genos. But being realistic like I have been ever since my first Keyboard, I have owned the Technics 600 the 800, 1000, 1200, 2000, 2600, 3000, the 5000, and the KN-7000. And each one was a step up, but nothing like The Genos.  But if I can get a great trade in, and see exactly what the new Genos or whatever it's called has to offer, I think my lust for another new keyboard may takeover.

[tyrosman]

Yes, I agree with everything you said about the Genos. But being realistic like I have been ever since my first Keyboard, I have owned the Technics 600 the 800, 1000, 1200, 2000, 2600, 3000, the 5000, and the KN-7000. And each one was a step up, but nothing like The Genos.  But if I can get a great trade in, and see exactly what the new Genos or whatever it's called has to offer, I think my lust for another new keyboard may takeover.

i totaly agree here Genos is the best

[Lee Batchelor]

I certainly agree that the Genos is a stellar product. Its operating system is terrible though.

Sorry folks but virtually the whole world runs on a Windows or Mac platform. Our computer operations are rooted in one of these technologies. The Genos OS "sort of" works like the two big OSs but it also has so many annoying quirks.

I'm still annoyed that my System settings were completely destroyed after the step up from the factory default to Version 2.02 or whatever the number is. Any update I've had installed on virtually any OS or program has left all my System settings alone. I never had to jump through all the ridiculous hoops that Yamaha makes you go through. Back up this, backup that, then reload this, reload that....arg!!!!!!

[musicman01]

Dear Lee,
If you think the Genos operating system is terrible then you probably can't work with a "Windows" either! Making a musical instrument such as a keyboard or organ work is looking for trouble! Look at Wersi, first the OAS system with Win XP and now OAX with Win 10 which crashes almost regularly just disastrous!!! What you are forgetting is that the hardware of a PC system evolves so quickly that if a component breaks down everything has to be replaced. For example: Motherboard (chipset) must always be compatible with CPU & RAM.
I have been teaching Tyros & Genos keyboards for years now. My conclusion after a few years there are very few people who really know their keyboard. Now with Genos it has already improved a lot!! Your problems you are citing are more than likely your own fault.
Genos is still the best arranger keyboard right now. I threw out my Korg PA4x, that operating system is really a mess!!
PS: No I'm not waiting for a Genos 2!!!

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi musicman01,

First off, you have no idea what my Windows capabilities are. I'm an advanced level user. I routinely edit the Registry, manipulate system files and templates, set security parameters, purge drives of garbage files, backup and restore, and many more functions.

When using Windows or the Genos, one only needs a very basic knowledge of file manipulation. Windows file manipulations are straight forward. Not so with the Genos. They're awkward. Yamaha uses unconventional terms like "Copy here" or "Move here" instead of "Paste" or "Move." There are several extra steps in file manipulation that don't need to be there. When you delete a Registration in the back end of the list, you are taken to the front of the list starting at the letter A all over again. Then you have to navigate to the back again through their terrible paging system. Why they did away with the vertical list system is beyond me. The Playlist tool is not the same. You can have two Registrations with the exact same name. Style assembly is counter intuitive. Updates are very convoluted. Users must basically do them manually instead of just agreeing to have them installed. I won't even mention the very confusing YEM. MIDI implementation to any DAW is full of trap doors. You spend more time being an IT geek than a musician.

Comparisons to other musical instrument operating systems are meaningless. Yamaha creates the best instruments for the better part, but they need to revisit their file system and make it more conventional so that it matches the majority of peoples' schemata. I use Cubase, which is owned by Yamaha. It works smoothly on Windows or Mac, and employs all the conventional actions and file system functions. It doesn't have the variations from conventional OS functions that the Genos has. So, Yamaha can do it if they so desire.

Yamaha would be well served to do some OS usability studies of Genos 2 before releasing it. The trouble with that idea is, it costs money.

[Tonny]

I am an amateur enjoying the Genos a lot.

Yet I have 3 wishes for a next Genos model:
- that the fade button can be stored in a registration (to allow a fade-out without taking your hands off the keys but just use a footpedal)
- that there is a function to gradually increase  (or decrease) the tempo to a predefined speed, also storable in a registration
- registrations now link voices and styles through a defined path. If you move the location of the voice or the style to another folder, then the registration can't find them anymore and therefore does not work. There are database systems available that keep the registration paths working, even if you move the voices or style around. It would require a so called content management system instead of the current simple file system. It would make our lives less risky when storing or reorganising voices and styles.

Regards,

Tonny

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent points, Tonny.

It seems a lot of suggestions coming forward are designed to make life easier for the stage performers. Yamaha has produced a stellar keyboard in the Genos but still drag their feet when it comes to looking at this marvel as a pro level tool. I wonder if they have any stats about the market distribution of home players vs. stage players. I'd love to know the split.

[Fred Smith]

I am an amateur enjoying the Genos a lot.

Yet I have 3 wishes for a next Genos model:
- that the fade button can be stored in a registration (to allow a fade-out without taking your hands off the keys but just use a footpedal)
- that there is a function to gradually increase  (or decrease) the tempo to a predefined speed, also storable in a registration
- registrations now link voices and styles through a defined path. If you move the location of the voice or the style to another folder, then the registration can't find them anymore and therefore does not work. There are database systems available that keep the registration paths working, even if you move the voices or style around. It would require a so called content management system instead of the current simple file system. It would make our lives less risky when storing or reorganising voices and styles.

1. With the current Genos, you can assign the Fade function to a pedal, and store this assignment in a registration if desired.
2. While accel/ritard would be nice, it's not at the top of my list. When I try to mimic a song, I find that that almost all changes in tempo are discrete. So I simply create enough registrations with the appropriate tempo. Given this feature has been requested for a LONG time, and not been provided, it's probably best to use multiple registrations to achieve what you want.
3. I fear that any attempt to do what you're asking (a database) will result in more confusion to users. I would agree that a checkbox for "Include Path?" would be helpful, and easy to implement. This would allow us to store only the file name, and mean that registrations would still work when a folder is moved or renamed. Current Yamaha keyboards support path-less file names, but they're hard to maintain. Until then, the best advice is: for files that your registrations reference, don't move them around.

Cheers,
Fred

[EileenL]

Well Lee,
  I like many others very quickly got used to the new operating system and accepted that this is not a computer but a keyboard and as such will be different. It works as it should and I don't have any problems doing things I want and using the YEM to add extra content. Very happy with mine.

[Lee Batchelor]

That's good to know, Eileen. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the older arrangers were musical instruments with a wee bit of computer control. Today's arrangers are computers with musical sounds. Big difference. I suppose if I spent several hours per day for weeks on end, I may get fast at using the Genos OS. I neither have the time nor the desire. That kind of activity doesn't make me a good player. Practicing does!

They still need to address the needs of the pro players as to how the Genos can become more of a stage tool. It's not too bad now, but it needs a lot of work. Problem is, no one at Yamaha cares what us Genos stage players want. There's probably not enough of us for them to care. The home players generally have all kinds of time to monkey around with a clunky OS?

Besides, the Yamaha developers are too busy knocking together the next Montage. Maybe some day... .

[mikf]

Before getting too disparaging about making money versus addressing needs, it's important to recognize that making money is what makes it all possible. Yamaha can't exist unless they make money, and certainly would not design the next models of arrangers if arrangers are not financially viable.
While it may be true that the overwhelming number of users  of arrangers are home players, without them there might be no arranger for the stage player. And if there was, its unlikely to be the advanced instrument it is today, because it's the home player that is the cash cow which drives the overall market success of these instruments, and funds the development.
I am sure that Yamaha both understands the needs of the stage player, because they have pro players on the development team, and is well capable of changing the operating system. But why should they ... the next nearest competitor is Korg and many would say their OS is less friendly than Yamaha. And a lot of buyer loyalty might come from familiarity with the existing OS.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Nothing new there Mike. I'm well aware that Yamaha is NOT in the business of making musical instruments. They ARE in the business of making money. Musical instruments are simply the means by which that happens. Granted, they must cater to the majority - those who really pay the bills - the home players. However, here's a quote directly from the Yamaha website > Genos page.

"Welcome to the new world of Digital Workstations. Genos is the new benchmark in Digital Workstation sound, design and user experience. Whether you are in a recording studio or on stage, Genos will inspire your musical creation and performance."

It's funny how they only mention the non-home players in this catch line and yet the home players are the largest market? Something is amiss here . Their catch phrase is touting the Genos as a pro level machine. Therefore, they need to listen to the pro level players.

Trust me, I'm not interested in starting a "Genos bashing" thread. It's by far, still the best keyboard I've owned. Yamaha just needs to listen to the stage players. If they can make things easier for us for live performances through a more intuitive OS, think how that would benefit the home players. It's a win-win.

[mikf]

Lee, I truly believe you have that the wrong way round.  If you asked anyone in Yamaha what they do they would say that they are in the business of making great musical instruments. But they would also understand that if they don't make money they would not be able to do that. Money is the enabler, not the core mission.
Mike

[Michael Trigoboff]

Lee,

I agree with you about the awkward user interface for the file system.

One problem is that Cubase is made by Steinberg, a company that Yamaha bought. The user interface knowledge at Steinberg is apparently siloed there. Entirely different people with a different culture are doing the user interface for the Genos.

[Lee Batchelor]

I don't know of one business whose core mission is not to make money first, Mike. Their products are a means to an end. I was in a very successful business for 25 years and sold that business for decent coin. The primary goal was to make money. The business model itself was the means not the first consideration.

I defy you to tell me that Yamaha would openly say that they are in the business if making instruments "for the love of it." No sir. They're in it for the money. They may enjoy it, which is a good thing, along with the joy it brings millions of people but it is not their primary focus. If they didn't make money, they would stop making instruments and focus on their motor division instead. Money is their core motivator. They just happen to be great at making instruments.

Are we not debating the chicken and the egg story !?

[mikf]

Lee, I think we just have to agree to disagree.
I worked at very senior level for multinational corporations, and never came across any ethical company who felt their core mission was to make money. They all saw being financially successful as the result of executing their mission well, not the core mission.
Here is what Yamaha actually say.
https://www.yamaha.com/en/about/philosophy/
Mike