SFF1 Versus SFF2

[Oymmot]

Hej.
Finns det någon som vet vad som skiljer i från SFF1 till SFF2 styles.
Vad gör SFF2 som inte SFF1kan?
Tommy

Edit: Translation by Roger Brenizer & also edited topic title.  Please post in English only as we are an English speaking forum, Tommy.

Hi.
Does anyone know what differs from SFF1 to SFF2 styles.
What does SFF2 do that cannot SFF1?
Tommy

[Teknoss]

English please!

[MBedesem]

Hi.
Does anyone know what differs from SFF1 to SFF2 styles.
What does SFF2 do that cannot SFF1?
Tommy

From Google Chrome Translate

[overover]

Hi Tommy,

The current Yamaha Style File Format "SFF2" (= SFF GE) was introduced with Tyros3 and PSR-S910.

"GE" in "SFF GE" means "Guitar Edition" and indicates that new Casm parameters have been added specifically for guitar parts in styles. For more details please see the PDF "Style Files - Introduction and Details" which you can download here:
>>> http://www.wierzba.homepage.t-online.de/stylefiles.htm

Of course, instruments that use SFF2 can also load SFF1 styles. But it doesn't work the other way around. SFF2 styles can be converted to SFF1 with various programs / tools. But of course the parameters that are not supported by the SFF1 format are lost. In addition, you will almost always have to make manual adjustments to the style so that it sounds "usable" on the SFF1 target keyboard.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[pjd]

Hi Tommy --

Just adding a few details to Chris's reply...

SFF GE will voice guitar chords. Guitar chords are voiced according to strings, fret position and shape as if a guitarist played them.

The other big feature is support for Mega Voice. Mega Voice divides the MIDI note range into two groups (broadly speaking). The lower range uses velocity-switching for pitched/melodic tones and the upper range provides effect sounds like strum or fret noise. Without getting too technical, the lower and upper ranges need to be handled differently by the style engine. That's why styles with Mega Voice parts "sound funny" on SFF1 arrangers.

"SFF2" is the MIDI marker in the style file that flags the style as SFF GE. "SFF2" is used as a nickname (interchangeably) with "SFF GE".

Hope this extra info isn't TMI -- pj

[Amwilburn]

Paul, slight correction... mega voice was introduced during sff1, for 2 generations of KB's (T1/CVP309. T2/CVP409, PSR3000/ PSRs900); when mega voices first launched, the 1st gen (T1/CVP309) didn't even have classical nylon guitars, it was all steel string and electrics, as well as basses. But yes, the guitars were using guitar voicing in the styles; they were programmed in blocks like traditional arpeggiators (but already sounded so much better with the fret noise, string/ body taps, etc). Megavoice was introduced in late 2002 with T1, sff2 was introduced late 2008, specifically to take advantage of the megavoice guitars.

Yeah, I also would've thought they'd have done that at the same time.

Mark

[overover]

Hi Tommy --

Just adding a few details to Chris's reply...

SFF GE will voice guitar chords. Guitar chords are voiced according to strings, fret position and shape as if a guitarist played them.

The other big feature is support for Mega Voice. Mega Voice divides the MIDI note range into two groups (broadly speaking). The lower range uses velocity-switching for pitched/melodic tones and the upper range provides effect sounds like strum or fret noise. Without getting too technical, the lower and upper ranges need to be handled differently by the style engine. That's why styles with Mega Voice parts "sound funny" on SFF1 arrangers.

"SFF2" is the MIDI marker in the style file that flags the style as SFF GE. "SFF2" is used as a nickname (interchangeably) with "SFF GE".

Hope this extra info isn't TMI -- pj

I just saw that Mark has already posted on the subject of "Mega Voices". But since I had already written my post, I'll post it anyway:


Hi pj,

A small note on the subject of "Mega Voices":

Also Tyros1, Tyros2 as well as PSR-300 and PSR-S900/700 (all working with SFF1) have Mega Voices (Tyros1: 10, Tyros2: 18, PSR-3000: 10, PSR-S900: 15, PSR-S700: 10 of them). So SSF1 styles can already handle Mega Voices.

However, I don't know at the moment whether and to what extent the SFF2 format has been changed with regard to Mega Voices.


Best regards,
Chris

[pjd]

Hi folks --

OK, we may be splitting hairs.  Yep, I agree that SFF2 is not an absolute pre-condition for Mega Voice. Back when I had an E443, I could play styles, etc. with Mega Voice data, but the effect notes would sound incorrectly when played with a regular voice. Given the limitations of SFF1 NTR/NTT limitations, Yamaha may have had to split the MIDI note data onto two separate and separately mapped parts -- one part Root Trans (the pitched notes) and one part Root Fixed/Bypass (the effect notes).

SFF GE avoids this inconvenience -- all Mega Voice note data can reside in a single part. The CASM info breaks the mapping into three note ranges where one range maps pitched notes and one range maps the effect notes (Root fixed/Bypass). As far as I know, SFF1 has only a single NTR/NTT mapping for all MIDI notes in the part.

Of course, I could be all wet, never having torn apart actual styles from that era. 

Hey, hey, thanks for clarifying -- pj

[Amwilburn]

That sounds like another pdj experiment coming up!

You'd think so, but no, the old styles had a single megavoice channel *with* chord tracking, and the megavoice effects like slaps and fret noises.

How on earth did they accomplish that before GE? Honestly not sure. I *think* it has to do with the structure of MV mk1, there's over an octave of different string slaps noises from C6 to Eb7, but then only a few notes that are 'body tap' and even fewer above that that generate fret noise. If they were *all* over an octave range, I'd have assumed they simply pitch shifted the noises along with the musical notes, but that's not the case. I thought maybe they use note limits?
Nope, looking at the unplugged style (which only has drums and 1 channel of megavoice steel string) the NTR is root trans, the NTT type is chord, NTT bypass off. Retrigger is set to pitch shift.
Note limits are c-2 to g8... so again, they're not using that to cap the megavoice noises.
Plus I did a quick midi recording, and yes, *some* of the slap sounds change around, but only to like 3 different values no matter which chord, and one of them (c7) stays regardless. How on earth did they program a style with a fixed mv slap before sff2??

The only oddball thing I noticed is that instead of CM7, the chord it's programmed on is E6add9


However, the multi pads? All the ones I noticed *are* split into separate channels for the musical mv portion, and the rhythmic mv portions, as you said, and as I would've expected as well.

Go figure.

Mark

*sending you some sff1 to have a look

[overover]

Thank you, pj and Mark! Very interesting details ...


All the best,
Chris

[pjd]

Hi gents —

Mark sent me a few files from that era. Thanks, Mark! I'll take a look tomorrow. The Olympics are calling. 

I agree, Mark, it does sound fishy. If there is a better way to do MV in SFF1, I surely want to learn.

— pj

[pjd]

Hi --

I took a look at AcousticRock.s106.prs from CVP-409.

It is an SFF1 style with an SFF1 CASM chunk. I dumped the MIDI file with Michael Bedesem's StyleDump and summarized the first block of CASM data below. (Thank you, Michael!)

Then I examined the MIDI notes using SONAR and made the observations summarized in the second table.

Things are what I expected under SFF1. Mega Voice effect notes are in there own track. Mega Voice pitched notes are in a different track. The CASM (NTR/NTT) info is set appropriately for FX or pitched notes.

SFF GE (SFF2) allows FX and pitched notes in the same source track. The SFF2 CASM info has low, mid and high note ranges which allow different NTR/NTT for each note range. This is why SFF GE was invented. It's a real pain to separate the MIDI note data.

Probably doesn't need to be said, the SFF1 and SFF2 CASM chunks are binary incompatible. 

Hope this helps -- pj

CASM: Main A, Main B, Main C, Fill In AA, Fill In BB, Fill In DD

Trk# Name     Role     NTR         NTT     MSB LSB PC#
---- -------  -------  ----------  ------  --- --- ---
  1  Gt 1 FX  Chord 1  Root Fixed  Bypass    8   0   1  MV Steel Guitar
  2  Bs b     Bass     Root Trans  Bass      8   0  17  MV Electric Bass
  3  Gt1 Bs   Chord 1  Root Trans  Bass      8   0   1  MV Steel Guitar
  4  Gt2 Bs   Chord 2  Root Trans  Bass      8   1   2  MV 12 String Guitar
  5  Ogn Rt   Pad      Root Trans  Melody    0 121  16  Curved Bars
  6                                          8   2   3  MV Solid Guitar 2
  7                                          8   2   3  MV Solid Guitar 2
  8  Gt 2 FX  Chord 2  Root Fixed  Bypass    8   1   2  MV 12 String Guitar
  9  Pc       Sub Rhy  Root Fixed  Bypass  127   0  27
 10  Dr       Rhythm   Root Fixed  Bypass  127   0  88
 11  Bs a     Bass     Root Trans  Bass      8   0  17  MV Electric Bass
 12  Gt 1     Chord 1  Root Fixed  Chord     8   0   1  MV Steel Guitar
 13  Gt 2     Chord 2  Root Fixed  Chord     8   1   2  MV 12 String Guitar
 14  Org      Pad      Root Fixed  Chord     0 121  16  Curved Bars
 15                                          8   2   3  MV Solid Guitar 2
 16                                          8   2   3  MV Solid Guitar 2

MIDI data: Main A, Main B, Main C, Fill In AA, Fill In BB, Fill In DD

Trk#
----
  1  All guitar FX notes (all > C6)
  2  All pitched notes, no FX notes
  3  All pitched notes, no FX notes
  4  All pitched notes, no FX notes
  5  All pitched notes, not a Mega Voice (organ)
  6  Intro C and the rest (all pitched notes)
  7  Intro C and the rest (all pitched notes)
  8  All guitar FX notes (all > C6)
  9  Percussion
 10  Drum
 11  All pitched notes, no FX notes
 12  All pitched notes, no FX notes
 13  All pitched notes, no FX notes
 14  All pitched notes, not a Mega Voice (organ)
 15  Intro C and the rest (all pitched notes)
 16  Intro C and the rest (all pitched notes)

I didn't bother to look at the CASM or MIDI data for Intro C, etc. as I really don't expect to find anything unusual. It takes a while to go through this data, even with good tools. 

[overover]

Thanks again for your research and these details, pj!

Who knows when I might need this ...


Best regards,
Chris

[Amwilburn]

Which is what you stated, and what we both expected: a separate midi track for the fixed (same as the multipad)

But what baffles me is the *single* megavoice track for the unplugged ballad1 which has both types of data in the single track...

Mark

[pjd]

Hi Mark --

Just took Unplugged1.S458.prs aparts. Sorry, Mark, everything is separated out.

Back to the Olympics -- pj

"Man Ray: Exactly correct. You inhabit two worlds. So far, I see nothing strange. Gil: Yeah, you're surrealists. But I'm a normal guy."

Sty;e: Uplugged1.S458.prs

CASM: Main A,Main B,Main C,Main D,Fill In AA,Fill In BB,Fill In CC,Fill In DD,
Ending A,Fill In BA

Trk# Name     Role     Notes allowed     NTR         NTT     MSB LSB PC#
---- -------  -------  ----------------  ----------  ------  --- --- ---
  1  gt root  Chord 1  D Eb E F F# G#    Root Trans  Bass      8   0   1
  2  gt root  Chord 1  C C# G A Bb b     Root Trans  Bass      8   0   1
  3  gt e-f#  Chord 1  E F F#            Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
  4  gt g-g#  Chord 1  G G#              Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
  5  gt a-b   Chord 1  A Bb B            Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
  6  gt c-c#  Chord 1  C C#              Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
  7  gt d-d#  Chord 1  D Eb              Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
  8  gt efx   Chord 1  C to B            Root Fixed  Bypass    8   0   1
  9  tamb     Sub Rh   C to B            Root Fixed  Bypass  127   0   0
 10  congas   Rhythm   C to B            Root Fixed  Bypass  127   0   0
 11  gt9 e-g# Chord 1  E F F# G G#       Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
 12  gt9 a-d# Chord 1  C C# D Eb A Bb B  Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
 13  gt 13    Chord 1  E F F# G G#       Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
 14  gt 13    Chord 1  C C# D Eb A Bb B  Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1
 15  gt 6_9   Chord 1  C to B            Root Trans  Chord     8   0   1

MIDI data: Main A, Main B, Main C, Fill In AA, Fill In BB, Fill In DD

Trk#
----
  1  All pitched notes, no EFX 
  2  All pitched notes, no EFX 
  3  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums)
  4  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums)
  5  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
  6  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
  7  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
  8  All EFX notes
  9  Percussion
 10  Drum
 11  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
 12  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
 13  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
 14  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)
 15  All pitched notes, no EFX (strums and picking)

[Amwilburn]

LOl yes, back to the olympics.

Yes, I realize it shows root fixed on tr,8-10 (I didn't even know there was a track 8 ... Major 8 style tracks vs minor 8 I'm assuming?)  but the *only* channel that has the guitar is ch12 (chord 1)

If you turn off the drums, and all the other tracks, leaving only chord 1 active, you will still get both musical notes and megavoice sound effects on the 1 track.
In other words, try it with only channel 11 (and thus 4 as well)/chord1 on, and you shall be as baffled as I am (we both know it *shouldn't* work!)

But there's no rush, wait til after the Olympics!

But your point stands about sff2 vs sff1. It was all about not having to waste midi channels duplicating the same megavoice sounds just for fx. I'm just baffled to how *this* particular style from the CVP309 worked with only 1 megavoice channel active.

cheers!

Mark

[pjd]

Thank goodness we get CBC, too.  Get to watch advertisements for your market, too. 

— pj

[Amwilburn]

Thank goodness we get CBC, too.  Get to watch advertisements for your market, too. 

— pj

Oh no!!! They've found out about Tim Hortons!!

[pjd]

I'm a lot closer to Timmies now than Dunks.    As long as they have a maple crueller (or maple eclair!) for me, I'm good. 

As to unplugged, this is where my knowledge gets fuzzy. The mapping from style track to actual style channel can be many to one??? I should probably be more precise in my terminology...

In the CASM, all the guitar tracks are assigned to the "Chord 1" channel. So, if two of the tracks are routed and merged as the "Chord 1" channel, channel cancel, etc. should affect the merged data on a single channel (Chord 1).

I sure as heck didn't (don't) know if you can do this. I suppose I should load unplugged on the Genos and see what happens? Naw, that would be too logical. 

-- pj

[Amwilburn]

No, I understood the many to one mapping; as I'd said, I assumed it was 1-8 for minor then 9-16 for minor (or vice versa).

But shockingly, you can kill *all* channels except the 1 guitar channel on chord1 (ch4/12) and it will have both components of megavoice in that one track. I don't understand how that's possible, hoping (after you've had your Timmies) you could unravel that one!

Is it *possible* instead of major minor, they mapped musical notes onto ch#12 and the non musical effects on the invisible ch#4 and merged.... but then the style would only respond to major or minor chords in that case, and it definitely works on both.


Maybe it is something as simple as the redundant mv sound effects (octave+ of string slaps) combined with the upper note limit??

Help me pjd, you're my only hope!

[pjd]

Hi Mark —

Not on the best device for a reply. I'm questioning my phrase "routed and merged"....

The track selection criteria are more complicated than just major and minor, that's for sure. I'll look at this again in the AM although I do believe that the Gt FX track ( always goes to its tone generation channel. I think CASM allows more flexibility than we see in Style Creator.

45 minutes to hockey — don't need to mention who! 

— pj

[pjd]

No, I understood the many to one mapping; as I'd said, I assumed it was 1-8 for minor then 9-16 for minor (or vice versa).

Even though we lost, I will still answer your question.   

The rules enabling/muting style tracks have more flexibility than chord type. BTW, the chord breakdown in unplugged1 is more complicated than major vs. minor. I think the style authors were trying to simulate different voicings or fret positions.

Tracks 1 and 2 allow the same chord types. However, the notes allowed make the two tracks mutually exclusive.

Tracks 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 allow the same chord types. The notes allowed make the five tracks mutually exclusive.

For tracks 12 and 13, the chords allowed are the same: 7(b9), 7(#9), 7(9), m7(9), M7(9). However, the notes allowed make the two tracks mutually exclusive.

Taking tracks 13 and 14, the chords allowed are the same: 7(13), 7(b13), 7aug. Again, the notes allowed make the two tracks mutually exclusive.

Track 15 is a loner; the allowed chord is 6(9).

The allowed chords for the guitar FX track overlaps with the other tracks and all notes are allowed. I would expect guitar FX to sound all the time.

The rules and CASM track settings appear to select only two active tracks at a time: one track for regular notes and one track for guitar FX notes. Both sounds are produced and sent to the Chord 1 mixer channel.

I didn't write down all of the chord types for tracks 1 to 8, because the list is rather long. If you're interested in the specific chord types, Michael Bedesem's StyleDumper program will display them.

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. I still have to drive across the border to get to Timmies. I'm stuck down here with PNW hipsters who think donuts are too low-brow.