Where To in 2022?

[Jørgen]

Hi Joe, I would like to add my voice to keeping this tutorial and forum going and like many others would be happy to contribute. I post songs quite often as you know but I also wander around the site at least a couple of times a week looking at comments on questions. I have also like many others taken advantage of many of the styles over the years. What many others say about community is so true...FB and You tube are great for doing stuff but lack the personal interaction. I have made many friends on here and that in a world which is so disconnected is so important....best wishes.  David

fb and you tube also lack a clear structure with division of content into different sections. it makes it almost impossible to find and retrieve information.
Jørgen

[Toril S]

Jørgen has a good point. I have given up facebook groups for this reason!

[Amwilburn]

Joe, you've done an amazing job with this website & forum... I can only imagine how much hard work you've put into it.

I miss google+ (that was an awesome free service... that they realized they weren't making any money on and now it's business accounts only... D'oh!).

But would it be possible to migrate the site to one of the lower cost webhosting services like wix, godady, hostpapa, Wordpress etc?

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-cheap-web-hosting-services

It doesn't eliminate the fee, but at 1/10th the cost it might be a *lot* easier to scare up enough annually.

Mark

[EileenL]

I think I have made more friends on Face Book during the lock down than I have in many years. If you join the right group we all submit songs or give live performances Talk about our keyboards and help one another out in general. We have also had some lovely concerts performed by professional players people like Jean Martyn Chris Powel and others which has kept a lot of us going during these hard times plus there have been some great instructional demonstrations where you could ask questions on the live feed and get answers so I won't knock it because when forums became quite the interest was kept going by Face Book and Messenger video calls are great for showing people how to do things face to face and id dose not cost anything to belong.

[mikf]

I am always sceptical about cost saving ideas being thrown in from the "outside" because most of the time it is not fully researched. And even if costs could be lowered, any migration is more work, and surely the last thing Joe and Roger want. Joe is 77, Roger is 81 they can't keep doing this forever. I am 76 so I understand how they feel.
But I also notice is that no younger person is jumping up and saying they would like to take this website on.
Mike

[dlepera]

Hello Joe and everyone in this forum.
I have been a member since December 2020 when I first purchased my arranger keyboard. I had no idea of how it worked but read a lot about it. Even so I was prepared to return to the place of purchase because it intimidated me and had no support from the dealership or even "Yamaha Support", what a let down.  I looked for support locally but not much for a newbie to go on. Then I found this forum and it was complete heaven for me. Today, I would NEVER let this keyboard go.  Not only did I learn so much in a short time and still learning with a long way to go.  The communication with forum members and support we provide each other is second to none.

My forum signature is something that I have believed in since I was old enough to reason and understand.  "Life is a learning experience and sharing it is it's biggest reward!

  I rely on this form because it is the place to get answers  from very experienced, understanding, patient, talented, supportive members of all ages. Speaking of age, it seems that more and more people I talk to these days are turning to music.  There is nothing more soothing than making and sharing music.  These past two years I think of it as the most effective way to keep balance and harmony in our lives

Other social media platforms like Facebook have been mentioned, and very affective ways to communicate and while some have good experiences many on the other can misuse it. I for one and I am sure others like me don't want to even go there.  Why have the potential chaos when we can have the harmony in this form.  I have seen that everyone follows the form code of ethics even when perhaps one may not agree on a response which is not a common thing.  Facebook, Instagram on the other hand is a different fish.   

A yearly subscription is not something to be afraid of when you get so much value in return. Look at these website that offer answers to questions on subjects like appliance repairs, auto repairs, etc. They charge a minimum $5 for an answer that you can get on utube or the internet. Yet they still are in business  The forum here gives us lots of answers sometimes before we even ask the question.

A yearly subscription to me of  $10 yr minimum, is in I my eyes  still a small price to pay for the administrative time that is put into this form just to maintain it, let alone the hard costs to host  the site.  Joe and Roger, I would think that you have the numbers for the number of new members and those that go dormant after 6 months.  You can use that to help determine what could be a fair year subscription. Of course one could say that in different parts of the world one dollar in Canada and USA would have a different value and fair enough that would be brought into consideration to arrive a a modest and fair amount.   That of course should not prevent anyone from donating an additional amount if they want to.  Deep down inside we all know the value that we get from this forum and passing forward our appreciation to continue this wonderful experience is the least that we can do. 

What I don't appreciate is when someone purchases a package from this form and then monopolizes it to sell those styles, voices, pads and midis and songs for a profit on EBAY for example and more than likely do not provide a donation to the form. 
In my time here I have purchased 3 packages to help support the form,  and all well worth it. Where else could I have gotten such great value for so little. It has given me a great appreciation for all that you talented members do for the love of music and the generosity of allowing people like my self to enjoy the fruits of your labour. 
  Every time that I log into this site I learn so much just by reading posts. What a wonderful, convenient and well structured place to learn. 

   Thanks to not only Joe, Roger and others that support this website, but thanks to each and every one of us for supporting each other in whatever way we can and see fit.

    Let us all enjoy a happier New Year and let this forum be the place to go and fuel our love for music.   

                         Sincerely.             Dom

[mikf]

We could all throw in $10 a year, $100 a year or even $1000 a year but it still won't make Joe and Roger any younger.  . Why do people keep thinking a subscription solves this??
Mike

[dlepera]

Hi Mike.
Very simple. money does not by youth, you can look younger with a face lift with money of course. But kidding aside.  I am hearing two things here. One how to bring the form to modern day.  Well to that point sometimes the old works the best with simple modifications. What can this forum do to bring it up a notch, well nothing except to minimize the administrative work to maintain it with less overhead. Something like introducing automated tasks/scripts/welcome greetings, etc,  remove some less active boards, , I don't know the tasks involved to be able to suggest more cost effective ways to reduce workload intensive tasks. Structure, and controls I think are very good.

  Now what will the yearly $$ do, first and foremost cover the operating costs of the forum which someone has to pay or forfeit for lack of funds, which is not what we want.  So how do we get that money?  Now if the money can cover the cost of the forum and more, then the extra, perhaps can be used to hire someone to take on some of Joe's and Roger's activities giving them more precious free time to enjoy their lives outside of music and more
                                   dom

   

[mikf]

Joe never asked if we should have a subscription, he never asked for advice in cutting costs. But that is what most people have addressed!!
He asked if the website content needed to radically change to stay relevant, or even if there was a place for the website at all going forward. And also hinted strongly  that he and Roger may not be able to keep this going for much longer. But most are answering questions he did not ask and ignoring the questions he did ask.
Mike

[DrakeM]

If the site is worth it? Heck Yes it is. Anyone wanting to know how these keyboards work has to join this site. Nobody else has all the information in one spot like this site has put together.


When someone has a Question, an experience member is able to simple give them a LINK to a page here at the site which as the step by step instructions. Without this site holding all this information on it pages, it would be a real pain in the .... to have to re-type the information over and over again and again every 3 to 6 months for a new member.

[dlepera]

Mike, Joe's information can be interpreted in many ways. You are correct and so are the rest of us talking about our points. I am looking outside the box.  Joe's first lines are this:

"The bill to renew PSR Tutorial for another year comes due in less than two weeks.  It will cost me $3000. Is PSR Tutorial still worth it?"

  First thing that comes to most of our heads is the cost of running the forum.  It is costing Joe("me") as he states $3000. Why should it be costing him.  Yes the rest of his comments deal with improvements. But will those improvements get him the $3000 to pay for the running costs, where are they coming from and is there enough to cover costs. If the idea was just to solicit ideas, I don't think that the mentions of $3000 would need to be there.  Maybe just my interpretation. This is why we are on this point and trying to help address the initial and perhaps the most import point in keeping a forum running.  Money!! 

    Then comes how to save workload which affects the cost, reducing data storage on the sever reduces cost leading what I think you are focusing on which is just as correct and addressing the same point in view. Reducing data storage means reducing content, reducing administration work to support/manage the life cycle of that data, which means less work for Joe and Roger and long term save what:   MONEY, LABOUR! So after that is done and Joe and Roger are no longer doing the work, who will maintain it?  Someone may not want to do it for free, so again money may be required to pay someone to do the work... This is the way I look at things.
   Anyway why are you and I at odds here when we are both looking at the best interest of the forum.  Better yet, why are you even not considering expanding Joe's comments to help out not only Joe but the fate of the forum.
  Since you seem to know more than some of us, please put us on the right path by perhaps articulating  your thoughts on improvement so that we can all have some kind of a template example of what we should all be considering in order to ensure that we do not go on a tangent like this and make this post more directed to Joe's exact ask.
  Maybe Joe can steer us back on the straight and narrow since some of us are perceived of going of the path.   Sorry.    I am done here.
                                                   dom 
    I think I have said enough and I rest my case. 
           Regards.     dom _

[mikf]

I have put forward my thoughts quite clearly previous posts in this thread. And if you look at the "likes" you see both Roger and Joe, so what I am saying obviously resonates with them.
The annual paying of the main bill places Joe at a crossroads, a decision point. A decision becoming more difficult each year, not because he cannot find the money, but because he is getting older and questions if it is worth the continuing effort. Does he pay it and therefore by implication carry on for one more year, or does he decide now is the time to call it quits. Even if he decides to carry on this time, the same decision happens again next year.
I said before the only way I see this carries on for much longer ie beyond a year or two, is if it transitions to a younger person with the technical know how, fresh energy and willing to take it on. And it will be down to that person to decide if change is needed and make those changes - whether that is cost reduction, subscriptions, more resources or radical content change, - or all of these.
I am certainly not that person, are any of you?

Mike

[ton37]

The core: let Joe W. place a large, eye-catching, advertisement on his (valued) site: wanted a young, energetic and music-loving person, who wants to continue this site in the short term. He/she gets the help of the existing moderators for a smooth transition. For info contact ....

[EileenL]

I myself only run a forum not a website. I do not ask and would not take donations to run it. I do it because I love Yamaha keyboards and have had so much pleasure from them. I know they can seem complicated to new and existing users and I get lots of I want to throw this thing out of the window. I just wanted to help people get the best from these lovely instruments. Then of course the next step for them to be encouraged to show us how they used it and set it up to entertain us with there songs. I give away styles from time to time that I have worked on and as I know how short some members time is I make sure these all work well and use them myself.
  I also post registrations I have made to give an idea what is possible and to add variety to playing. I don't have moderators and don't allow Music books or sheet music to be shared on the site because of copy write. I believe our laws are a little different in the UK to else ware.
  All this is paid for by me as it is what I enjoy doing and I am 85 this year by the way.

[mikf]

That is admirable Eileen.

[ton37]

If I interpret/translate Joe W.'s post correctly, the focus is on the PSR tutorial part. That seems 'to worry' him the most. Not so much in the forum section. I've had a similar website like this for many years. I can imagine that, due to ones age, it could be: enough is enough (and believe me: it costs a lot of time and energy). Human speaking: as soon as you start to wonder: do I have to go through with this? Than it usually doesn't take long before you drop the axe. Hopefully a successor will appear before then, if not: it is history...
I whish you all the best, Joe W. (c.s.), fingers crossed ;-)

[EileenL]

Thank you mikf

[Joe W]

First of all, let me express my Thanks and appreciation for all the members who have responded and contributed to this discussion.   It helps illustrate the value of this PSR Tutorial forum community.

Second, let me assure everyone that I have paid the bill and we are good to go for another year.  That bill, by the way, included not only the server itself, but technical management and support to take care of the software and updates needed to just keep servers up and running as well as other associated fees like domain name registration etc.

As mikf has suggested, paying the bill was not so much about the cost as about the decision to sign on for another year.  This thread confirms that there are many people who appreciate the PSR Tutorial and would like to have it continue, more or less as is but with minor changes that may reduce upkeep and maintenance, which, for Roger and myself, is measured in hours not in  dollars.

When the forum started, I looked for a way to generate income to cover financial costs.  Providing CDs or resources seemed to be the answer.  When someone ordered a CD, they became a "Supporter" in the forum -- for Life -- and had access to a wider array of forum resources.  So, instead of paying, say $5/year, a purchase of $25 would provide access not for 5 years, but for life.  Over the years, thanks to the generosity of many forum members, I have been able to collect and create new resources every year or so.  You will notice many users have the term "Supporter" next to their name, meaning they have, at some time, provided support by ordering a data collection or making a donation.  Others may have "PSR Performer" by their name meaning they have provided support by contributing their music to the PSR Tutorial.  Some members are shown as "Senior Members" meaning they have shown their support by providing answers and comments in the forum on a regular basis.

There are donation buttons on the main web site as well as buttons to order any of the available data collections.  That has worked and, I assume, will continue to work in 2022 as long as the main site is still there and maintained.  The forum remains free and open to the public (just as the web site is free and open to everyone).  In fact, most of the things provided in the various "collections" are available on the main website and can be freely downloaded from there.  If the main site disappeared, we could switch the forum to some kind of subscription basis but no need to do that just now.

Fortunately, over time new Yamaha keyboards worked pretty much like earlier keyboards so most of the lesson material remained relevant.  I've tried to supplement some lessons by using the screen shots from the new SX900 where the user interface is a bit different from earlier models.

I'm not so sure how valuable the coverage of MP3s are. Over the years, I have received over 8,600 MP3s.  4,800 are still available online.  What to modify here may be a separate discussion. 

In the meantime, the PSR Tutorial and the forum will continue through 2022.  Maybe this will be the year Yamaha releases the next generation and we will have plenty of new things to talk about.

 

[Toril S]

Joe, did you hear my big sigh of relief all the way from Norway? A big thank you for taking on another year! ❤️

[dlepera]

Joe, thanks for your dedication and hard work along with Roger and others doing all the hard work behind the scenes to provide this world class forum.  All your efforts do not go unnoticed and are greatly appreciated.
                All the best!   dom

[vlbrgt]

Thank you Joe for all the effort you do to continue this site/forum for another year.
Thanks to all the moderators that help you to keep this website/forum up and running.
Much appreciated.

Regards
Etienne

[Colin D]

Thank you kindly Joe and Roger

[Joe H]

Joe W,

If there is too much work to maintain things, prioritize and decide what can go and what should stay and... ask for volunteers.  Charging a small membership fee is OK with me.

I agree with everyone that the site and forum serves a very useful purpose.  Covid has prevented Yamaha from introducing new arranger models but that won't be forever.  I hope you decide to keep the forum going.

Thanks a bunch for everything you and the Moderators due.



Joe H

[janamdo]

First of all, let me express my Thanks and appreciation for all the members who have responded and contributed to this discussion.   It helps illustrate the value of this PSR Tutorial forum community.

Hi Joe
Well, the solution is to ask  7,50 USD from  every registered user and if some people more contribute by a donation that should be fantastic.
Its a dministration ok, but hope that members willing to pay at the start of the New Year

So you could right now start for this new year ..asking for membership contribution.
That's good for your wallet and mood and remember every hobby costs money   

Jan

[tomtomsf]

Thank you, Joe. It's pretty amazing what you have done to bring Yamaha arranger players together from all over the world. I sure appreciate it and always continue to check PSRtutorial for something new and interesting. Looks like I will continue to do just that in 2022!

[RoyceM]

Joe,

I too am most appreciative of the hours and hours you and Roger give to this site.

I pity new keyboard owners the day when this wonderful resource might have to go away. They will have fun, but without the gigantic support you have made possible these many years.

- Royce

[Del]

Hi Joe, I echo what Royce and tomtom has posted, there maybe a solution to your time but it would be a very hard decision to make, and you have probably already thought of it.

To ease/reduce your work load
     Take on another 1/2 Administrators maybe upgrade your current moderators if they want to take on the workload and appoint 1/2 new moderators to replace.
     Perhaps the new administrators could look after the forum part and Yourself and Roger look after the support side or visa versa, and I am sure with Yours and Rogers guidance this
     Forum and support website can remain. I know how difficult this could be to release the reins a bit but eventually the new admins will need to run it as efficiently as yourself and Roger and
     take on the cost of running it.

Thanks again Joe, Roger, and all the moderators in the running of this excellent forum and support site, I certainly have got a lot out of this and made some very nice friends along the way.

Del
     

[rgw]

Hello Joe,

it is a great relief to hear that the Forum will continue for another year. The help and advice and all the available resources are invaluable to me. You and Roger are indispensable in my view and I for one will be more than happy to pay an annual Subscription in order to maintain this very important and worthwhile site.

Best wishes to you both,

Richard.

[alanclare]

"Thank you, Joe and Roger", sounds so inadequate, but please believe me, I mean it from the bottom of my heart. I count you and many of the members of this forum, as my friends. I bought my Arranger without any thoughts as to how I was going to use it. Google led me to the Lessons which got me started, and then to the Forum.

Like so many of us, the Forum is an important part of my life, and I sincerely hope that it will continue to be so.

Alan

[tbaroghel]

Dear Joe,

That your website and forum exist was the very reason I joined theYamaha users community (I really think Yamaha Corporation should support you) and I was very worried when reading your post. Transitioning to a subscription model could help you / us in the hiring of a dedicated person, with the mission of 1- to relieve you from tasks that you do not want to do anymore 2 - propose and implement changes to you and members so we can still have this invaluable place to rely on. I am thinking things like Newsletters with highlights of new contributions, hardware news, etc. I think Arranger keyboards lovers are 'specific' in their tastes and a market research on potential improvements in the whole PSR Forum experience would help - at a cost but many of us are willing to contribute.

Regards and thanks from France,

Thierry