Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?

[Toril S]

Hello friends
I see there is a therad about transposing and of learning to play in difficult keys, but I don't want to hijack that thread, so I am starting my own because my problem is a little different. In my case I have been playing accordion and a little piano all my life, but have never played together with others. I do not read music, but learn songs by listening to them. And here is where I have made a big mistake: If I want to learn a song, but the key is challenging for me, I just play it in a comfortable key. And on my keyboards I have my very much beloved transpose buttons! When I play accordion at a party no one notice that the song is played in a different key. No one comes up to me and says: "Shouldn't that waltz rather be played in f sharp?" They dance, talk and have a good time, and all is well. BUT now I have been asked to play in an accordion band!!!!! They all play by ear, so no problem there. The problem is all the keys I am not comfortable playing in!!! I fear I will have to decline, but have a big disire to at least try before I give up. So friends, all tips and advice is receiced with big thanks! My skill at playing the accordion in C, F and G is OK, but then we have those sharps and flats....
There will be no slepp for some nights!!

[GregB]

Toril,

It sounds like you have no problem hearing what relative chord is being played, so that's great.   It's very useful to have gotten to that point where you can naturally think of a chord progression in terms of scale degrees rather than absolute chord names.  For example, an IV (4) chord instead of an F chord in the key of C.

If you've pretty well mastered that, you're in good shape for playing by ear in any key; it's pretty much lots of practice until you gain the skill and muscle memory in all keys.  Scale practice is of course helpful.

What has also been helpful to me is to take a very simple familiar song, say with just three chords (I, IV, and V), and play it in every key.  Going around the circle of 5ths is useful as it means you gradually add one sharp or flat at a time.  So start by playing in C, then G, then D, then A, etc.  Then pick more familiar songs, gradually adding in the minor chords (IIm, IIIm, and VIm).  Then start to play some songs with borrowed (out of key / accidental) chords, such as playing a II or III (major) or whatnot.

(side note: a big difference between "nashville notation" using regular numerals for chords - 1, 4, 5 - and roman numeral notation - I, IV, V - is that the minors are assumed in nashville notation.  So your roman numeral chords I IIm IIIm IV V VIm would be just 1 2 3 4 5 6 in nashville notation.)

- Greg

[Toril S]

Thanks a lot Greg! Great advice!

[mikf]

Toril
It's great to practice in a way that will make you comfortable in all keys, but you can also just choose to practice the specific songs in the keys they use in the band. I think that will be quicker. Ask for a list of songs they play and the keys they play in. Then start working on them. Quite quickly it will become comfortable to play each specific song in the designated key. In fact given a bit of time you might not want to play that song in any other key, even the theoretically easier keys.
Mike

[Toril S]

Thank you so much Mike! I will not give up on this, even if my level is not up to standard for the band. Practice, practice!

[SciNote]

These are all good suggestions.  The bottom line is to get familiar with the keys that you are currently unfamiliar with.  And to that, I would add learning what the notes are in each of the main keys, as that can help when learning songs and their chords.  For example, I'm sure you know that the C-major scale is all the white keys -- C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, and that the G-major scale is similar, but starts with G and sharps the F (F#).  Well, I would try to learn those note patterns for all keys, such as Db-major being Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db.  You could then do the same thing for the minor scales, as well.

And also, one of the first things I learned when I started learning how to play is the notes of all of the major, minor, diminished, augmented, major-7th, 7th, minor-7th, and diminished-7th chords.  Like learning the notes of the scales, as you become familiar with these chords, you will more instinctively know what notes to hit when playing songs in keys with lots of sharps or flats.  This could take a little while, but would be worth the effort.

I remember my teacher made me a chart that started with the notes of all of the major chords in root position, with those notes being called the 1st, the 3rd, and the 5th, as those are the positions of those notes on the major key scale.  Then she wrote the following:

For a minor chord, start with the major chord and lower the 3rd by a semitone
For a diminished chord, start with the major chord and lower the 3rd and 5th by a semitone
For an augmented chord, start with the major chord and raise the 5th by a semitone
I forget exactly what she did for 7th chords, but I think she started with a major 7th chord (adding a B in the C major scale), as that
   follows the notes of the scale -- (C, E, G, B for Cmaj7)
Then, lower that 7th by a semitone for just a 7th chord (C7 is C, E, G, Bb)
Add that "lowered 7th" note to a minor chord for a minor-7th chord (Cm7 is C, Eb, G, Bb)
and then, lower the major 7th by a whole tone and add it to a diminished chord for a diminished 7th chord
  -- (Cdim7 is C, Eb, Gb, A -- technically, the A would really be called a Bbb -- B-double flat -- to keep in protocol)

She also noted the white-key/black-key patterns of the root-position major chords to help me learn them more quickly...

C, F, and G major are white, white, white
D, E, and A major are white, black, white
Db (and C#), Eb (and D#), and Ab (and G#) major are black, white, black
Gb (and F#) major is black, black, black
Bb (and A#) major is black, white, white
and B major is white, black, black

Learning that for all the main chords can really help you get familiar with playing in different keys.  And once you learn the chords in root position, you start learning the actual notes of them (not just "flat the 3rd", etc) and you learn the different inversions of these chords.

[Toril S]

Thanks a lot Bob! Helpful advice!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hello friends
I see there is a therad about transposing and of learning to play in difficult keys, but I don't want to hijack that thread, so I am starting my own because my problem is a little different. In my case I have been playing accordion and a little piano all my life, but have never played together with others. I do not read music, but learn songs by listening to them. And here is where I have made a big mistake: If I want to learn a song, but the key is challenging for me, I just play it in a comfortable key. And on my keyboards I have my very much beloved transpose buttons! When I play accordion at a party no one notice that the song is played in a different key. No one comes up to me and says: "Shouldn't that waltz rather be played in f sharp?" They dance, talk and have a good time, and all is well. BUT now I have been asked to play in an accordion band!!!!! They all play by ear, so no problem there. The problem is all the keys I am not comfortable playing in!!! I fear I will have to decline, but have a big disire to at least try before I give up. So friends, all tips and advice is receiced with big thanks! My skill at playing the accordion in C, F and G is OK, but then we have those sharps and flats....
There will be no slepp for some nights!!

Hi Toril
Hope you are fit and well.
I am totally self taught from starting out with Kenneth Baker books.
Now that i am used to playing after 30 years of struggles, i have never played live as nerves would get me.
I tried it once and got through but i suffered a migrane after concentrating so hard.
Now at 70 studio is best for me. I can relax more and get on with the dream.
Getting that out of the way i hated to play some songs as they had loads of flats and sharps.
I also got fed up with not being able to do it.
As you know C  key is easy, so you think .
So i set about playing songs with two three and four shaps and the same with flats,
then picked a difficult song and step by step go through it.
I also looked at the scale charts and started practicing them. You have to practice scales as it makes life much easier . You will find out it is not so hard.
After about a year i was there and was delighted to play in any key. Reading music is also the key and the more you do it the easier it becomes.
There is a lot of things in sheet music that is not right ,or like the real thing and it is still best to put your stamp on a song.
I found out that sometimes things are easier still in another key and better patterns for your playing hands.
By forcing yoursefl to practice different key scales, you then realize ad-libbing becomes easier in songs also. Freedom to express.
I am not professor at this thing but i have bungled through  jungle all these years.


All the best
John                            I also see that there have been a few spectacular aurora borealis happenings lately.

[Toril S]

Thank you so much for the good advice John😀😀

[mikf]

Toril has sight limitations so I think generally does not play from music, but by ear.
Its never a bad thing to practice scales and arpeggios in different keys, but take it from me, the fastest way to learn a new song in a different key, for someone playing by ear,  who can already play quite well, is just to play the song over and over in the designated key. Your initial aim is simply to be able to play those songs with your friends, and not some ideal scenario of being super confident of any song in any key, or sight reading in any key. And remember that playing live in an ensemble, the odd mistake is probably not very noticeable.
I know you will soon get it because you can already play. And in the process of learning those specific songs you will become generally more and more comfortable in different keys with any song.
Mike 

[andyg]

(side note: a big difference between "nashville notation" using regular numerals for chords - 1, 4, 5 - and roman numeral notation - I, IV, V - is that the minors are assumed in nashville notation.  So your roman numeral chords I IIm IIIm IV V VIm would be just 1 2 3 4 5 6 in nashville notation.)

I was always taught that II, III and VI are major chords. ii, iii and vi would be minor. Maybe IIm just isn't a British 'thing'!

[quasar]

Hi Toril, you have a lot having a good ear to get the songs, the problem becomes when you have a tricky key with several black keys.


Greg pointed out something very essential: Taking scale degrees in spite of notes and he also mentioned the quality of each

degree. These 2 items are keys for your musical journey.

To start with there´s a formula to get the scales

C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C

1    2    3    4    5    6    7     8

There are whole steps and half steps, in the major scale

Between the 3rd and 4th degree and 7th and 8th there are half steps

The rest of the scale has only whole tones

This formula applies to all the scales it´s pure math!

I´m sending you a link that explains this topic deeply, good luck in your musical learning curve

Regards
Carlos

https://www.simplifyingtheory.com/music-scales/

[Toril S]

Thanks a lot Carlos!😀

[overover]

... To start with there´s a formula to get the scales

C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C

1    2    3    4    5    6    7     8

There are whole steps and half steps, in the major scale

Between the 3rd and 4th degree there are half steps

The rest of the scale has only whole tones

This formula applies to all the scales it´s pure math! ...

Regards
Carlos

Note that a major scale (e.g. C - C) has TWO half tone steps (3-4 and 7-8):

C - D - E-F - G - A - B-C
1 - 2 - 3-4 - 5 - 6 - 7-8


Best regards,
Chris

[mikf]

This kind of analysis is interesting by way of explaining how these things work, but not that useful for really playing. Playing well is about training the subconscious control of motor skills by repetition. And that releases the conscious mind to think about the more subtle aspects of the music-  how it should sound, interpretation, phrasing, touch, etc. There isn't time to think about the analysis of the basics while playing.
And don't be misled by the lovely Toril's understating of her skills and musical ability. She has been playing a long time and is a very competent player already so I am sure she knows already how scales are constructed. 
Mike 

[janamdo]

Hi Carlos ,
I memorize the major scale as : 2 1/2 3 1/2 (PLAY THIS ON KEYBOARD)  (twohalfthreehalf) : two whole step, half step three whole step, half step
Once knowing the major scale playing tunes, then going to tunes with one #(sharp) sign and one b (flat) sign.
one #(sharp) =  from a white key up to the black key in a half step conversely.. one b (flat) sign:  from a white key down to a black key  in a half step
The circle of fifths is showing this too

So you can see in what key you play and which signs (# (sharp)or b(flat) ) are used there
The key with one #(sharp) is? ... try to figure this out and play this scale ( hint: it is the major scale , but one note has to be raised one half step)

[Toril S]

Thanks, my good friends😀

[quasar]

Hello Chris, thanks for the correction

It was an involuntary omission

I'm going  to make the correction

Regards
Carlos

[quasar]

Hi Janamdo, there are several ways to memorize the formula, but there another ones to memorize the minor scales and scales for improvisation, etc, there's a lot of job, but we have to take it carefully, step by step, without getting hurried...

I think the best way is the other formula:

Practice, practice and practice, the only way

Regards
Carlos

[Toril S]

I realize my mistake in not learning all keys from the start. To play in a key you are not familiar with is a little like sitting down to write on a typewriter. You know the touch system, so you think all is OK. But someone has put the keys on the typewriter a little to the side, a little up or down from where you remembered them to be. Your muscle memory is no good, you hit the wrong key all the time. But eventually you get the hang of it! Lazyness on my part, now I pay the price. All my fault, I wanted to have an easy life...
I learned a waltz in G minor today, so I am on the job

[mikf]

I memorize the major scale as : 2 1/2 3 1/2 (PLAY THIS ON KEYBOARD)  (twohalfthreehalf) : two whole step, half step three whole step, half step
Once knowing the major scale playing tunes, then going to tunes with one #(sharp) sign and one b (flat) sign.
one #(sharp) =  from a white key up to the black key in a half step conversely.. one b (flat) sign:  from a white key down to a black key  in a half step
The circle of fifths is showing this too

So you can see in what key you play and which signs (# (sharp)or b(flat) ) are used there
The key with one #(sharp) is? ... try to figure this out and play this scale ( hint: it is the major scale , but one note has to be raised one half step)

No-one should learn to play this way, - by analysis. Players don't think this way. Use your ears to hear the correct notes of a scale, its obvious - then repeat this scale until embedded in your brain. And just know the key signatures, don't work them out - one sharp is G, 2 is D,  3 is A , 4 is E. One flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb, 4 is Ab. Yes its mathematically true that these run in opposite directions round the circle of 5ths, but best to just know it, not work it out. It's not a lot to know. Otherwise paralysis by analysis!
Mike

[GregB]

I was always taught that II, III and VI are major chords. ii, iii and vi would be minor. Maybe IIm just isn't a British 'thing'!

Yeah, I believe it can be written either way.   The main thing is that the Nashville system numerals have implied minors, whereas the classical roman numeral approach indicates major/minor explicitly.

These types of differences do make for some fun, though, when collaborating with others.  I was in a co-writing session a couple months ago where another guy asked me to "add a seven" to a V chord.  I told him I didn't think a dominant seventh chord would sound very good at that spot, and he looked confused.  After some odd back and forth, it turned out he intended to ask me to play a 5/7 (nashville numbering) rather than a V⁷.  In other words, bass note on the middle of the triad rather than the root of the triad.

- Greg

[GregB]

No-one should learn to play this way, - by analysis. Players don't think this way. Use your ears to hear the correct notes of a scale, its obvious - then repeat this scale until embedded in your brain. And just know the key signatures, don't work them out - one sharp is G, 2 is D,  3 is A , 4 is E. One flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb, 4 is Ab. Yes its mathematically true that these run in opposite directions round the circle of 5ths, but best to just know it, not work it out. It's not a lot to know. Otherwise paralysis by analysis!
Mike

I tend to agree, but I think everyone's mind works just a little differently.  I still occasionally use the pattern janamdo mentioned on-the-fly, but it's always better when it's just muscle memory with my eyes not stuck looking at the keyboard.

- Greg

[Divemaster]

Perfectly normal progression.

Remember the first time you played a piece?
It was probably in the key of C and had no flats or sharps.

Then somebody comes up and says can you play this for me.......
and it has 4 flats  or 5 sharps.

It's all about practice. Never run away from a challenge. Master each and every part of how YOU want to polay, and you'll be amazed what you can do.

So my message to you is this.  OF COURSE YOU CAN DO IT.

[Toril S]

Thanks Divemaster!😀

[Aquilauno]

Hi
have the same problem Toril, playing by ear I realized that I use the key in (A) a lot. It's strange because it would be natural to think of using the key in C (easier since not has alterations). Instead I find the (A) more natural because I have black keys that I use as reference points and it works well for me (both for chords and melody) ... Only that I realized that every song I tend to always use the same chords (A, F#m, E , D ... etc ..) this is limiting to progress and improve. Same problem was with the guitar, the tendency was to avoid the barrè. With the guitar I solved by playing as much as possible with the original key of the songs. This allowed me to know and learn new chords (forcing me to use the barrè). The incredible thing is that, little by little, every time I picked up the guitar I had less and less difficulty in performing the barrè, as if, in addition to constant practice, the brain continued to work on it even after putting the guitar away. Of course I speak as a self-taught, currently with the guitar I hate only the Eb (and Eb-) and choosing simplified chords for the unusual ones, almost all the songs that interest me now I can make it in the original key are few those that I transpose in a different key. I am doing the same with the keyboard. Practice, practice and practice, I started with the major, minor and 7th chords. ) ... now I'm starting to tackle diesis and bemolle chords. I am practicing on Moonligth Serenade and in the original key of F this "forces" me to use some aug and dim chords too, Thanks to the SX900 "chord tutorial" I have everything at hand with a button assigned to it. On the net I found a little program for windows called "All that's chord", simple and fantastic. Obviously better to use a tablet and for Android there is the excellent "Keychord Lite" (free version) or "My Piano Assistant". These programs make it very easy to analyze and play a large number of chords and I suggest you try them they have great and clean graphics on a 10.5 inch tableti they are clearly visible much more than the microscopic "chord tutorial" of the SX900.
Furthermore, as in the guitar, I noticed that the chords are not so dissimilar to each other (the structure repeats itself some vary slightly from the major ones (for example the G, lowering the three notes by a semitone becomes an F sharp (or G flat) then instead of three white keys G, B, D, you use three black keys F#, A#, C# (or Gb Bb Db) It's easy to memorize right? But there are many possibilities (I consider it a quiz like "find the differences" lol). My difficulty is that I have the little free time, but also that I have to learn to use styles, timing for variations and more. However, the method of playing one piece at a time in the original key allows me to choose and deal with 3 or 4 unusual chords, to learn them and, therefore, to improve ( this at 57 years old ...) sure ... everything would be easier with 20 years younger and a few more degrees of eyes ... LOL.

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[Toril S]

Thanks a lot Aquilauno😀

[janamdo]

No-one should learn to play this way, - by analysis. Players don't think this way. Use your ears to hear the correct notes of a scale, its obvious - then repeat this scale until embedded in your brain. And just know the key signatures, don't work them out - one sharp is G, 2 is D,  3 is A , 4 is E. One flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb, 4 is Ab. Yes its mathematically true that these run in opposite directions round the circle of 5ths, but best to just know it, not work it out. It's not a lot to know. Otherwise paralysis by analysis!
Mike

If you play all white keys for a octave , then there is no need to think on a formula
Exercising the other scales for different keys is by playing and read from paper ( not by using the formula )
Indeed i agree , must be practiced on keyboard over and over again

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Toril
All these circle of 5ths and this and that can be confusing at times .
I just get a scale chart and go for it.
After getting used to a scale then the music in front of you becomes easier.
Just take your time and slowly learn a song that way.
It is totally surprising what you can do once you get used to that scale.
Also you may even find it easier in a key other than C.
You may get a song in C that your little finger cannot reach, but in a different key you have more diagonals and it can be easier.
All depends how much free time you have really
I am talking from an idiots point of view!!!
Also Toril play what you feel and then music sounds more interesting than following notes to the print sometimes!!
It is still all fun.


All the best
john



All the Best
John

[Toril S]

Thanks John. I just play by ear😀