Multitrack automation

[vadesriux]

Hi everyone. Is it possible, after you have finished recording a song using multitrack recording, to automate volume and pan ?

I will explain better. Imagine I have Track 1 already recorded, and this track begins with a long pad chord. But now I want to record the volume of this track raising up slowly from Bar 1, for instance. Or maybe the Pan going from left to right. All this inside the SX sequencer (without using a computer DAW). Example: pressing Record (but not actually recording any notes) and while Track 1 plays back I would go inside the Mixer and adjust this parameters while recording?

Is it possible to do this ? I didn't find evidence of this online so if someone could help it would be great.

This would be great as you would never need a computer to compose simple songs.

[bhergar56]

Hi, I don't think it could be an easy operation to do in the keyboard, a few months ago I had to reduce the volume of two midi tracks from 110 to 0 step by step in certain point, and believe me, doing this with the PSR sx editing software is very unpleasant, so the best, fast, and easiest way to do those kind of things is using a computer DAW.

Regards

Bernardo.

[vadesriux]

Hi Bernardo.

So if I hit record, go to the Mixer and simply tweak the volume down on Track 1 this change of volume doesn't get registered on Track 1?

[EileenL]

If you put your track one into rec mode and don't play anything the track will be cleared and you will lose your recording.

[vadesriux]

Hi Eileen.

Yes it makes sense since you will be in "replace" mode, not overdubbing. But if you were in overdub mode, I thought it would be great the SX900 to be able to record changes in volume and Pan. This would totally erase the necessity of using Cubase or other DAW.

My experience is each time you leave the keyboard environment to go to your DAW, you loose the creativity momentum. Each and every time. Even if you first record everything inside the keyboard (multitrack) and translate through USB to the computer. You then feel you are "programming" music and not actually "playing and recording" at the same time. This is the reason why Vangelis always worked as much as possible without a computer. To be able to keep the creativity flowing without having to spend hours and hours later - because this actually happens - "programming" and "perfecting" your music inside a computer. And to me that makes perfect sense.

I dont want to "compose" the music in 20 minutes and later having to spend literally hours perfecting, automating volumes, pan, effects, etc. inside a computer. I love computer, always did, but not for this job. Creating music must be done outside a computer. This is the reason I love the Genos/SX menus and multitrack facility so much. It is the most intuitive, simple and direct way of recording a song on any keyboard. And believe me, I have tried many many keyboards.

[bhergar56]

Hello vadesriux, sorry not to answer sooner, had some issues.

I think, and my understanding is,  it's not posible to record volume or pan adjustements while recording, not even over a midi file done or terminated (editing), when you start a midi recording session, one of the first lines in the midi file  are volume, pan... etc, these are maintained and stablish at the beginning with the setup values, you selected, and they are not changed in the middle of the session using the equalizer. When editing over a finished midi file, you can adjust these parameters one by one, but manualy, if you need to make adjustments like fade in or out (eg. volume) you can do it but you will have to include in the midi file, line by line with its corresponding value. The Yamaha keyboard editor for PSR SX900, is not a professional app, it only permits you adjust and incorporate easy things!, The adjustments you want/need,  must be done with a professional DAW software, depending on your needs and expectations.

A very good and free software used by several members of our forum is "Mixmaster", I recomend you to search over the forum, take a look about it, download it and probably it will help you a lot when you need to adjust certain parameters and manage the kind of things you want/need to do with midi files.

Another very useful yamaha app for iOS, (don't know if there is a androide version) is MusicSoft, it permits to manage (import/export) all your files between the keyboard and your iphone/ipad/mac, whith or without cables, no need to use USB memory.

Regards

Bernardo

[vadesriux]

Thank you Bernardo for your detailed explanation and tips.

Eduardo

[panos]

Hi vadesriux,
I also think that pan and volume change cannot be changed while re-recording the midi.

Once I've just changed (the way you have described) manually the volume of just one voice,
while converting the midi to .wav with the onboard audio recording.

But this way you can change just a little stuff if you are quick and accurate.

Effects though (like EQ high, Brightness etc) can be changed the way that you want to do, by recording the midi without replacing what is already have been recorded.
At least an effect will change the way that the pad sounds.
(This feature is called "punch out" on my older model).

[vadesriux]

Using the pitch bend or an assignable button assigned to volume?...

[panos]

I don't have an assignable button.
The Data wheel under the screen works just fine for me when I want to increase and decrease something (or making it go from left to right and backwards).

[ckobu]

Hi Eileen.

Yes it makes sense since you will be in "replace" mode, not overdubbing. But if you were in overdub mode, I thought it would be great the SX900 to be able to record changes in volume and Pan. This would totally erase the necessity of using Cubase or other DAW.

My experience is each time you leave the keyboard environment to go to your DAW, you loose the creativity momentum. Each and every time. Even if you first record everything inside the keyboard (multitrack) and translate through USB to the computer. You then feel you are "programming" music and not actually "playing and recording" at the same time. This is the reason why Vangelis always worked as much as possible without a computer. To be able to keep the creativity flowing without having to spend hours and hours later - because this actually happens - "programming" and "perfecting" your music inside a computer. And to me that makes perfect sense.

I dont want to "compose" the music in 20 minutes and later having to spend literally hours perfecting, automating volumes, pan, effects, etc. inside a computer. I love computer, always did, but not for this job. Creating music must be done outside a computer. This is the reason I love the Genos/SX menus and multitrack facility so much. It is the most intuitive, simple and direct way of recording a song on any keyboard. And believe me, I have tried many many keyboards.

Hi vadesriux,

you just can't do the automation on the keyboard itself. Many have already suggested that you use a computer and additional programs. It's quite simple and completely under control, you play MIDI in the program and listen to all the sounds on the keyboard. Of course, you need to connect the SX900 via a USB MIDI cable.
MixMaster is a great program and it's completely free. See one example of volume change automation on a channel.

https://youtu.be/JMwieMqIovw

When you get used to working in this way, you will very quickly forget many actions on the keyboard itself, regardless of the fact that these possibilities exist in it. You will see many examples of this on my channel. This is just one.

https://youtu.be/C6H2MSpZO4g

regards, ckobu

[mikf]

You are really talking about doing a "final mix"  on a midi on the keyboard. This is something that has been raised before, and it cannot be done on the keyboard. It has to be done using external software. It is an omission that Yamaha should address, but I have discussed it with Yamaha and it is not on their radar.
Mike

[Wim NL]

I have tried this with my Genos.

Option #1
You can directly program it in Midi Multi Record with step edit or.

Option #2
You can directly record the automation in to another song channel for use later,
Only you can't hear the result live.

Note: You have to record first a note when record the automation data otherwise nothing will be record.
    With you can later can delete or set the velocity to 1 or don't copy + paste.
    Use "Right 1" for the channel that is used for automation when record in "Midi Multi Record"

You can use the "Mix" option to mix 2 track, if you are familiar with that.

I found out that the mix option does not 100% Merge 2 tracks as I aspected.
Use sourse 1 for the track that begins first with automation or notes.
The settings for sound etc.. at the beginning of the track are only mixed for the source 1 track.
So mix first the 2 tracks to another track than your source track  or atomation track for safety.
When finisch tou can copy it to the right track.

Also the event filter does not work 100% as I aspected.
When I want to filter the "Control change" with first al other unchecked and then "Control change" only cheked nothing apears.
Only when first check all on and then uncheck all one by one except "Control change" the control changes are visible.
This not good Yamaha!!

Or don't use the mix option and just use copy the automation with "Multi Select" and paste it to the song track without automation.
When using step edit select with "Multi Select", start at the end of the selection to the start of the automation events,
copy, exit and go to the song track without automation and go to the right song position and paste.

[janamdo]

Probably if record your song directly in the free Cakewalk program ( the setup for this is laborious)
Then in Cakewalk you can do volume changes or automations ), because the song is loaded there

I should like to do this Yamaha keyboard recording with Cubase 11, because i am more familiar with Cubase and own it too

[vadesriux]

Hi Wim. So if I understood correctly you record the automation on a separate track (playing 1 single note at the beginning and using Right 1), and then copy and paste it onto the track you want to automate.

How do you copy and Paste?

[ckobu]

Probably if record your song directly in the free Cakewalk program ( the setup for this is laborious)
Then in Cakewalk you can do volume changes or automations ), because the song is loaded there

I should like to do this Yamaha keyboard recording with Cubase 11, because i am more familiar with Cubase and own it too

Hi Janamdo

Setting up the Cakewalk and any Yamaha arranger takes a few minutes. If you download my templates (link in the description), you will save additional time. Watch the video (English subtitles).
https://youtu.be/vjqUzC4DqnI

You don't have to work this way to use automation later. You can record SONG on the keyboard and then switch it to Cakewalk to make changes as desired.

The same goes for Cubase. He has a problem that you have to specify Start and Tempo in Cubase, not in the keyboard.

[Wim NL]

Code Select Expand

Hi Wim. So if I understood correctly you record the automation on a separate track (playing 1 single note at the beginning and using Right 1), and then copy and paste it onto the track you want to automate.

That correct. if you don't record a note the track doesn't record anything.
You can start the record with a note
Midi setup "All Parts" should work.
Receive channel  Port2Ch1 has to be Keyboard

Code Select Expand

How do you copy and Paste?

Use multi select and step edit:
Copy the automation with "Multi Select" and paste it to the song track without automation.
When using step edit select with "Multi Select", start at the end of the selection to the start of the automation events,
copy, exit and go to the song track without automation and go to the right song position and paste.

[janamdo]

You don't have to work this way to use automation later. You can record SONG on the keyboard and then switch it to Cakewalk to make changes as desired.

The same goes for Cubase. He has a problem that you have to specify Start and Tempo in Cubase, not in the keyboard.

Thanks
So you can record a song on the keyboard and not recording it in Cakewalk first?
Recording in Cakewalk i can remember was not that easy
Its transferring the recorded song from the keyboard into the DAW, that is something i did not consider yet earlier   

[ckobu]

That's right. First record the song on the keyboard, save it to USB and transfer it to your computer. You can then process it the same as if you recorded it using the method I described in the video.

Recording in Cakewalk i can remember was not that easy

Check out the video I linked in my post. It takes 11 minutes to explain the setting and record the song. The video description contains links from which you can download a template for MIDI settings on the keyboard and a template for Cakewalk. MIDI settings are made on Genos, but will work properly on sx keyboards as well. The Cakewalk template will help you get started shooting right away.

Of course, you must first properly install the Yamaha USB drivers and enter the list of instruments in the Cakewalk. It is a process that you do only once and it remains permanently written on your computer.

[janamdo]

Thanks for your help

Makes it whole world difference when i don't have to record the song into Cakewalk, but directly on the keyboard.
Can use the Yamaha usb driver recently together with the audio usb interface UR22C

Must look how this setup audio usb interface in Cakewalk ...but  i prefer it to do in Cubase with all that audiorouting and midi editing what i know now.
So i must learn more about the audio routing in Cakewalk.. 

[ckobu]

Hi janamdo,

first of all the terms, MIDI vs Audio need to be clarified.
We talk about MIDI information and MIDI signal all the time.
The SONG you record on the keyboard is a MIDI file and we can have 16 channels.
If you record as I showed in the video, you also record a MIDI file.
In this case, MIDI information is sent from the keyboard to the DAW via the USB MIDI protocol.
The keyboard is connected directly to the computer and no UR22C is required.
DAW plays MIDI data and it activates sounds from the keyboard.
Audio signal cannot pasing through this protocol.

A card like yours, UR22C, is required to record audio signals in DAW. The MAIN OUT from the keyboard (2xTs cable) is connected to the INPUT 1 and INPUT 2 UR22C inputs. Here, the analog audio signal is converted to digital and recorded to DAW audio channels via a USB cable. This way you can record only one stereo signal or two mono signals. So only two channels in DAW but they are in Wav format.

I hope you understood the difference and if something is not clear, feel free to ask.

Cakewalk and Cubase MIDI configuration works on an identical principle only the look is slightly different. If you know how to work with Cubase well, setting up Cakewalk shouldn't be a problem. But as I already pointed out, below my video is a Template that you insert into Cakewalk and everything is ready in two mouse clicks.

[janamdo]

I hope you understood the difference and if something is not clear, feel free to ask.

Cakewalk and Cubase MIDI configuration works on an identical principle only the look is slightly different. If you know how to work with Cubase well, setting up Cakewalk shouldn't be a problem. But as I already pointed out, below my video is a Template that you insert into Cakewalk and everything is ready in two mouse clicks.

Hi ckobu
Thanks for the explanation!
Yes, there are similarities with Cakewalk and Cubase

But when the song recorded is with the SX 600 keyboard, i can import this midi in Cubase too and there inside Cubase i can use the usb audio interface ( there is no need to connect the SX600 keyboard with the audio usb interface (not possible too) )
Using the internal soundgenerator of the SX is important for getting the Yamaha SX 600 quality of recording
How to get this setup in Cubase?

It seems easier to use Cakewalk for this, because all is sorted out for the setup.
The SX 600 keyboard is connected with the SX tonegenerator and i can use also the audio usb interface with Cakewalk for connecting to a advanced midi kontroller keyboard, at least if possible   
Note: SX600 has no midi connections only usb directly with computer connected and UR22C has midi connections, so with a more advanced yamaha arranger keyboard the ur22c audio usb interface can be used


Something to try out this setup

[ckobu]

....
But when the song recorded is with the SX 600 keyboard, i can import this midi in Cubase too and there inside Cubase i can use the usb audio interface ( there is no need to connect the SX600 keyboard with the audio usb interface (not possible too) )
Using the internal soundgenerator of the SX is important for getting the Yamaha SX 600 quality of recording
How to get this setup in Cubase?

The SX 600 keyboard is connected with the SX tonegenerator and i can use also the audio usb interface with Cakewalk for connecting to a advanced midi kontroller keyboard, at least if possible   
Note: SX600 has no midi connections only usb directly with computer connected and UR22C has midi connections, so with a more advanced yamaha arranger keyboard the ur22c audio usb interface can be used

You can't get to that setting in Cubase because Sx doesn't have an audio interface.

USB cable AB (printer cable) that is connected from SX to the computer sends MIDI data. It is an identical protocol found on UR22C and you have recognized it as a MIDI connector. same thing just a different type of connector.

[mikf]

The trouble is that all these software solutions are useless because J have a CVP. As I said on another post , the whole point of buying an expensive integral piece of furniture like the CVP is not to have wires, pedals, stands, computers, amplifiers etc. It's not a studio type environment. So I think the CVP range for the cost should have a decent on board final mix facility.
Mike

[janamdo]

You can't get to that setting in Cubase because Sx doesn't have an audio interface.

USB cable AB (printer cable) that is connected from SX to the computer sends MIDI data. It is an identical protocol found on UR22C and you have recognized it as a MIDI connector. same thing just a different type of connector.

Thanks
Once sticked to Cubase ..i like to use it also with SX600 and not using cakewalk for simplicity reason.
I can record midi in a DAW with SX600 via USB inbuilt audio interface in SX600 , what is then connected with computer.

"Audio" is for me a file format, when i export the midi into a particulair audio format,  for instance with Cubase 

[janamdo]

The trouble is that all these software solutions are useless because J have a CVP. As I said on another post , the whole point of buying an expensive integral piece of furniture like the CVP is not to have wires, pedals, stands, computers, amplifiers etc. It's not a studio type environment. So I think the CVP range for the cost should have a decent on board final mix facility.
Mike

Its is not a trouble, because there are more ways to make music then only with the CVP instrument is possible
Of course that's my personal idea of it
Is it music if someone in Africa is playing a drum ? 

[vadesriux]

I am sorry to say but this Topic has been deviated from its purpose. There is no intention of talking in this thread about Cubase, Cakewalk or other DAW to record PSR XS / Genos songs.

The purpose is to be able to record and automate inside these keyboards. Of course with a Daw is much easier to do this, but you loose completely the creativity when composing. You spend 1/2 an hour composing the song inside your keyboard and 6 hours configuring your song inside a Daw. I know many folks here would like to be able to use a Daw with ease, but this is not the goal of this thread.

So all help is welcomed on explaining how to record and automate inside the keyboard, not outside. And yes, I know it is possible for others had already achieved it.

[ckobu]

Hi vadesriux,

I'm sorry the topic went in the wrong direction. That was not my intention. 

I am also so sorry to have to tell you that any attempt at automation in the keyboard itself is not possible. MIDI Multi Recording contains a only couple of basic functions. The only option is Step edit but it's not even similar to what you need.

[overover]

Hi vadesriux,

I think that the "Mix" function in MIDI Song Recording (already mentioned by Wim above: https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,59420.msg459585.html#msg459585) is the only option to subsequently add recorded "automation" data to an existing Channel (track) directly on the SX900.. (Please refer also to the SX900 Reference Manual, page 76.)

You can record the desired "automation" data on a free Channel (and/or program it manually using "Step Edit"). Then use "Source 1" in the "Mix" function to mix (merge) the new data with the existing data on a specific Destination Channel. ("Source 2" would copy only Note events.)


Best regards,
Chris

[vadesriux]

I'm sorry if I seemed a bit harsh. I thank all help from everyone here.

Thank you Chris. The idea of recording the automation on a separate track (using 1 note at the start) and after copying and pasting this to the track we want to automate seems to be a good one and easy and simple to put in practise.