Is it okay to Defrag the User Drive (memory)???

[Depo1964]

I was having a problem last night trying to update a User Style ....
when I ran a Windows 7 Defrag Analyze against it, the User Drive was 70% fragmented.
Thx.

[Normanfernandez]

If the hard drive is used on the laptop / pc only.
A defrag is good for the hard disk.
Never defrag a SSD. 
Also make sure to delete files that are not necessary. Then you can perform a defrag.

I do it almost every week on my PC.
Norman.

[DerekA]

See here : Not recommended, no, and should not be necessary either

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/noticeboard/general-noticeboard/why-you-shouldnt-defragment-a-solid-state-hard-drive-2011-11/#:~:text=With%20a%20solid%20state%20drive,will%20reduce%20its%20life%20span.&text=SSDs%20are%20able%20to%20read,are%20adjacent%20to%20one%20another.

[Normanfernandez]

See here : Not recommended, no, and should not be necessary either

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/noticeboard/general-noticeboard/why-you-shouldnt-defragment-a-solid-state-hard-drive-2011-11/#:~:text=With%20a%20solid%20state%20drive,will%20reduce%20its%20life%20span.&text=SSDs%20are%20able%20to%20read,are%20adjacent%20to%20one%20another.

It would make it slower 

[Argento]

Can't be of many help on this forum (yet), because im a noob on music, but that is IT , and on there yes, i have enough knowledge  to give some advice.

Basically there are many methods for storing information (optical, tape drive, etc) , in this case, we are discussing about two, magnetic based (HDD) and memory based (SSD / USB Stick).

fragmentation is an empty space between 2 files, that later is filled with part of another file, then the file is fragmented in at least 2 parts, the empty space betwen that 2 files, and another free space of the media... if you have luck, that file will only splitted in two... usually is splitted in MANY parts.. 20 or even more more, that free space is created when you, (or the operating system/program) removes a file, so a free space is created on the media, of the size of that file, (sectors in a magnetic HDD , memory cells on a memory based media)

The fragmentation of files occurs in both of them (, BUT , is not reccomended to defrag at all to do so on memory based media, as already many told you. thats the shord story , "Dont do it", the little more lenghty why:



On a magnetic HDD, you have a mechanical head that moves over a disk (like the old vinyls), so, when you have file that is splitted (fragmented) all over the magnetic surface of the disk, the HEAD has to move all over the surface of the disk to read that files (the files are stored in a large string like method, think on a train, with wagons, each wagon is a sector, so, if you have all the wagons you need (for assembling the train) one after another , on the same track, you can assemble the train very fast and dispatch it ... if some of the wagons you need for assembling the train, are on different tracks... well.. and imagine assembling a train with wagons on 20 or 30 different tracks .... quite some time will pass until you can dispatch that train ) , the same occurs on the HDD, the Disk must "assemble"the sectors, before dispatching the file to the Operating system... luckily is faster to search sectors to ensable that wagons on trains...

That head moves over the disk at glazing speeds, 100 times per second or more, BUT is mechanical, so it actually MOVES over the disk looking for those sectors... normally takes around 17 to 25 mS (0,017/0,025) seconds... its pretty fast BUT, when you have many sectors "scattered" around the disk plates... time gets added pretty quick!! the transfer time, from the plate, to the computer memory is almost negligible in comparison to the 25mS the head takes to move.... when a file is NOT fragmented , that times decreases to only 6 mS usually , so is at least 3 times faster (thats why , after you defragment a HDD based PC, you feel and makes your computer "faster"

On the memory based storage, you dont have any mechanical parts, they're only electrons moving around , so as the transfer times "over the wire" from the media to the Operating System are practically the same that for magnetic HDDs, and you dont have to "wait" 6 mS or more for that head moving each time (a file fill many many sectors usually, think on a very verry long train) that SSD are pretty much "faster" that the mechanical one.
The problem in this case, is that each cell of memory inside your SSD or USB stick, supports a LIMITED amount of reads, and much much lower amounts of WRITES, thats why you DONT defrag a memory based media, you must move (read & write) memory cells around the media, and you shorten the life expentancy ouf your media, sometimes drastically, with no actual beneficts at all, is exactly the same (for the SSD) read memory cells , one after another, or scattered around!!
SSD have "reserved" empty space , (that you cant see), for replacing "dead" memory cells, (its called provisioning space) but that space has a limit , and when the disk runs out of provisioning cells... you start to have problems... memory that can't be written anymore, or whorse , that can't be READ anymore, so you lose the file that that cell has a part of it
On the SSD theres a funcion to "replace" the defrag command, its called TRIM... but you dont need that , all modern operating systems do that by itselves on SSDs

Sorry for the lenghty explanation, but i like to explain WHY things occurs, not tell : "do that because i said so" ... thats a method i use when i lost my temper with a customer XD

[Normanfernandez]

Too much IT mate 

[Depo1964]

I assumed that since my question was asked in the Genos Forum the reference to the User Drive would be
to the Genos User Drive and not any PC hard drive.......

OKAY... So now I will answer my own question.... after searching a few of the manuals,
where  the question of defgramentation comes up in an analogous situation.
The only place in the manuals that I could find a reference to defragging is in the Owner's Manual on pg 121.

"The data on the User drive is fragmented and cannot be used as is. Since there is no
defragmentation function in the Audio Recording, the drive can only be defragmented by
formatting it. To do this, first back up the data by using the data backup function
(page 105), then format the drive, and finally restore the backup data. Performing this
backup/restore operation effectively defragments the drive, allowing you to use it again"

So the way to defrag the Genos User Drive is to
1) do a Backup of the Drive.
2) reformat the User Drive. .... and
3/ do a Restore .....

Thx everyone for your comments.
ciao,  Dan

[Robert van Weersch]

The Genos User Drive is an SSD and those don't need to be defragmented. On an SSD, fragmentation is no problem, even if it is as high as 100%, because it has no effect on performance or durability. Defragmenting it will wear it down and should NEVER be done!
Why do you think you need to defragment it? The error you encountered has nothing to do with defragmentation.
Also, Windows 7 (almost 12 years old!) cannot handle many modern devices correctly, so you should not use it to do maintenance on your Genos.

[DerekA]

The only place in the manuals that I could find a reference to defragging is in the Owner's Manual on pg 121.

This is in the 'troubleshooting' table, when you get an error trying to record audio to the internal hard disk drive.

This is exactly the same entry as found on the Tyros manual, though the Genos table says "user" drive in place of 'hard disk'

I suspect this is was just a copy-and-paste from the Tyros manual to the Genos manual, and whoever did it didn't appreciate the difference between defrag on hard disk and on SSD.

[overover]

Hi all,

in fact, the Genos User drive is an "eMMC" flash memory (embedded Multi Media Card) , but this technology is very similar to an SSD (solid-state drive, sometimes also called a solid-state device or a solid-state disk).

Basically, as already stated by other members before, a flash memory don't have to be defragmented.

It also shortens its lifespan, because the individual memory cells of a flash memory cannot be rewritten indefinitely. Windows 10 recognizes SSDs and instead of a defragmentation runs so-called "Trim" commands by default.

So I definitely do NOT recommend defragmenting the user drive from the PC.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

The word disk should not be used at all when referring to an SSD. The Classical hard disk drive has been discontinued in the Genos and shouldn't be referenced in their manuals unless they are talking about an external hard disk drive.

Edit Notice how the word Classical has been automatically capitalized in my post? I can't change it to lowercase. Something else is wrong - another tech issue . I think tech issues are more prevalent these days than Covid !

Where do I access the spell checker for this site?

[Genos!]

The Classical hard disk drive...

Now that's a real "classy" сlassical hard disk drive!

I don't know. I sometimes wish someone who really didn't care about,
i.e. nothing to lose, would try it and report back how it went. 

But I do agree that there is no point in even trying to defrag memory,
basically because there is no drive head movement and seek delay.

@Lee -- I cheated!