Piano Voice comparison

[mikf]

Over the years there have been many posts on the forum about the quality - or otherwise - of the piano voice. No less on the Genos. Many years ago we did a comparison on the forum of piano voices across models with some surprising results. There have been many changes in models since then and after some recent discussion I thought this worth doing again.
So with Toril's help I have tried to provide a comparison across some recent models. The models are the Genos, CVP605, PSR 975, and Tyros 5.
The method was for me to to record a piano only MIDI, which we dined forces too turn turned into an audio using the on board grand piano voice on each model. I suppose a purist might think that a better test would have been a selection of individual notes and scales at different pitches and volumes, but I thought that would be a bit boring, so I played one of my favorite pieces - Misty. Just remember that purpose is to critique the voice , not the piano player ...LOL
Of course there are other models like the SX range and the more recent CVPs that we did not have access to, but if anyone wants to volunteer, I can send the midi. I have a CVP 705 and I already know the piano voice is no different from the 605. So not worth doing. 
The samples are not identified, and you might find it fun to try to spot differences, and guess which is which. The links to each sample are below. The CVP is often regarded as Yamahas best piano voice - can you spot it?? Are there night and day differences between the most recent snd the slightly older models, or high cost keyboards and the more modestly priced ??
At this point I will only add one comment on the comparison - if you were to look at some of the comments over the years you might be forgiven for thinking that the piano voice on arrangers was nothing like a real piano. But I think that ALL of these samples clearly sound like a pretty decent piano being played.

Sample A - https://app.box.com/s/hehwn5bviewgbu5jpjyuvy2kctrqnhth
Sample B - https://app.box.com/s/tbaionqh0o45ltcedce9b8vp3odrivs5
Sample C - https://app.box.com/s/b11mcgsvw2f0owmm4ci8b4ke4s79ov6z
Sample D - https://app.box.com/s/obtv1r55ka7b6bgrjbq65bwhebw4if7j

Mike - with thanks to Toril

[DerekA]

Can I ask. On Genos, did you use CFX Grand, C7 Studio Grand or Legacy Grand Piano?

[mikf]

Toril will have to answer that as she did the Genos. My guess though is that she would let the midi select, and it would most likely choose the CFX grand because that was what i used on the midi.
Mike

[mikf]

One thing I should have mentioned, there was no way to record these on separate keyboards and keep volume the same. So for fair comparison you may have to adjust the volume of each one when you play it. 
mike

[Toril S]

Derek, I let the MIDI select, so it was the cfx. EDIT: I don't really kmow how to check what voice the MIDI is playing. How to please?

[PhotoDoc05]

Mike, Toril, thanks for the test!
Sample C was recorded quite a bit lower in volume, but still useful for comparison.
In my opinion, Samples A, B, and D really sounded close to one another.
If I had to make a call ---- Sample B sounded "nicest" to me! LOL, FWIW I'm new to keyboard playing.

I'd like to ask a question this way --> are there any specific settings on any of the keyboards in their Mixer that can make the Piano voice sound "better" or "richer" or "fuller"?  Such as in Chorus/Reverb  EQ  or Filter? I know the standard answer might be...... it depends on your taste!   But as an experienced Player, with your experience on several keyboards, which settings have you found that you think make an improvement over the defaults?
Jerry

[mikf]

Francesco - I am going to let the answer hang out there until some others post their thoughts.
Mike
Jerry - a lot of people playing single note melody lines over arranger accompaniment feel a richer sound would be better, and many altered voices have been posted over the years.  But these"richer" sounds are usually not optimum for full piano playing. The harmonics can shout at each other with big chords and bass. But I am sure a search around the forum will produce a voice more to your individual liking.
Mike

[Aquilauno]

I like this topic ..
It's just personal taste.
Sample B is first, after D, tirth A e last C ...but only because the volume is low...
Pietro
B =Tyros5 ?!
D =Genos ?!
A =S975 ?!
C=CVP ?!

[Ronbo]

Thanks for doing this test comparison for us.. it was a lot of work!

After carefully listening through Bose earphones I can honestly say that each sample was terrific, to me they all sounded great.

Considering the possibilities regarding speaker systems it would be difficult to tell which sample is the best.

I say we enjoy what we are playing no matter what model we have

regards

Ron

[panos]

I don't own any of these models neither that sound that much differently but I agree with Francesco.
C sample is Mike's keyboard because of the flat EQ settings(more warmth sound).
A sample sounds more like Genos (More difference between high and low notes).
B and D is I think is the same recording,better check it out Mike.

Jerry yes the EQ settings affect a lot the sound and the recording.
While this is a midi, the same values of effects of the piano voice like reverb,EQ high-low etc applied also to Toril's recordings except from the EQ settings of each keyboard.

P.s.
cheap 25$ headphones here

[Toril S]

C and D is not the same
Come on people, guess away

[PhotoDoc05]

OK Mike, I see what you're saying about the difference between full piano vs Arranger mode.

So, are you saying that in your examples here, you are using the defaults, and no changes in the Mixer settings?
Thanks, Jerry

[mikf]

Yes, no editing or altering of the on board voices. And I can guarantee the CVP equalizer is absolutely set flat. It is possible that there are some some equalizer changes in the other keyboards, I don't know this. But given how little the voices vary, I don't think it can be much.
The test mainly shows that there while there may be differences across models, they are small enough to hardly matter to a performance.
Mike

[Toril S]

All are set on flat.

[RoyB]

My preferences and guesses as to which keyboard are:-

1st - C (CVP)
2nd - B (Tyros)
3rd - D (S975)
4th - A (Genos)


Regards

Roy

[mikf]

Francesco - well spotted you are quite correct. This was posting error. I have now corrected it. My sincere apologies to everyone.
Mike

[soryt]

A - Genos
B - Tyros 5
C - 975
D - CVP

I gues    ?

[Rick D.]

I like B the best, but not sure where it came from.

Rick D.

[PhotoDoc05]

OK Mike,
I guess I'll chime in here again, now with the link to D version you corrected.
B and D sound very close, to me, but I have no experience to even guess which keyboard they came from!

Listening thru an Audient USB interface, with Sony MDR-7506 headphones, flat EQ  --- I'd still call B the nicest.
I'm not sure how to describe it, just some quality that seems like a tiny edge over D. Very good lows and highs.
And --- nice playing on your part!!
Jerry

[PWB]

This is all very interesting, but of course one of the reasons that we have a range of piano voices is that different sounds suit different pieces of music. There was a programme on TV a while back which showcased piano tuners who set up pianos for classical concerts at world class venues and for some of the best pianists. They explained that part of the setup was to suit the personal preference of the performer and another aspect reflected the repertoire.
I am never afraid to try different sounds and settings and sometimes I surprise myself.

[Toril S]

What is your guess here?

[Ronbo]

Hello all

I think B sounded best to me

Regards

Ron

P.S. I can't begin to guess what keyboard this is

[mikf]

You really can't change the sound of a grand piano. The tuners are mainly able to change the feel, but these changes are tiny on an already excellent piano. And I guarantee the listeners can't detect any difference. Concert pianists normally prefer Steinway - not so much because they sound the best, but because they like things the same. Nearly every concert hall has Steinway, the result of brilliant marketing as much as the quality of the piano and concert pianists would also normally practice on Steinway. Elton John carts his own Yamaha around with him, Oscar Peterson preferred Bosendorfer, - I was just happy if it was in nearly in tune, most of the notes actually played and it wasn't full of beer bottles and trash LOL
Mike

[Dromeus]

You really can't change the sound of a grand piano. The tuners are mainly able to change the feel, but these changes are tiny on an already excellent piano. And I guarantee the listeners can't detect any difference.

The technique used to modify the sound (timbre, tone of colour) of a tuned piano is called piano voicing. The difference is best detected by a direct before/after -B comparison, e.g. :

https://www.cunninghampiano.com/piano-voicing-can-hear-difference/

[mikf]

Yes, voicing is mainly about sticking needles in the hammers to soften them. On these top end pianos the effect is going to be tiny, only noticeable to the most discerning.
Mike

[mikf]

I will give it another day or two then post the origin of each sample.
Mike

[Toril S]

Please have a listen and make a guess friends😀

[Lee Batchelor]

First, nice playing Mikf!

Samples A, B, and D all have the Tyros/Genos character with slightly different EQ settings. Sample C sounds more full and hence sounds like a CVP to my ear. I'm willing to admit that all four sound very good. There are three things to keep in mind:

• Our acoustic memory is very short, so it's often difficult to make a judgement even when playing these clips close together.
• Any sound perception depends on the health (or lack thereof) of one's ears.
• All sounds depend on what speakers are used and in what environment.

Side bar
The developers REALLY need to clean up the list function of this interface. Also, pressing Ctrl+B does not result in a bold font application. In fact, none of the standard "Ctrl+ key" functions work. It's great software but way behind the times in these areas .

[maartenb]

Thanks for the test, Mike and Toril! And wonderful playing!


Expectations before the test

I expect the PSR-S975 to sound almost identical to the Tyros 5. The Tyros 5 might be recognizable by the relatively dry sound.

The Genos has better DSPs. Not only for reverb, but also for piano strings resonance. And the Genos seems capable of reaching higher frequencies. This should sound better.

The CVP should have the best sound.

Let's put on the Yamaha HPH-MT8 headphones and do...


The test

Focusing on the ascending notes at around 0:14, I noticed C sounded artificial, therefore 975. The other one slightly artificially sounding to me was A, therefore Tyros 5.

The last two were difficult. At around 1:15 a quick descending line was played. D had that high frequency sparkle, therefore Genos. B sounded at that line real and therefore had to be the CVP.

So my list is:


A) Tyros 5
B) CVP605
C) PSR-S975
D) Genos


Afterthoughts

Upon first listening I noticed how hard it was to tell the instruments apart. This should silence all discussions about "bad" piano sound on keyboards!

However, C (PSR-S975?) sounded a bit worse than I expected. It sounded like less wave memory was used than in the Tyros 5.


If I turn out to be wrong, I don't know what to do. Change instrument, headphones or computer D/A? Or get a new pair of ears?


Again, thanks for the challenge; I loved it!


Maarten

[johan]

First one is really cool. Last one (sample D but the MP3 is also called misty C.mp3) seems slightly better. But very very hard!
Me too I like this exercise, so thank you for posting this challenge.

My guess:
A - Genos
B - 975
C - Tyros 5
D - CVP