The future for keyboards ?

[Oldden]

Reading a reply to an earlier post made my think what will be in the future. In the past I have owned a farfisa organ, a Hammond baby b3 , a Yamaha d65 and a few others, all organs with pedals, two manuals and very large wooden cabinets.  I switched to single keyboards as things progressed , mostly Yamaha psr's . With the psr3000 being my favourite until I got my Genos. What will be next ?. Laptops are progressing by leaps and bounds. Garage band on my iPad, whilst nothing like my Genos, is still very good. Band in a box and Kontact are very good but nich software programs, suppose they could work together. Chordpulse, is brilliant for what it does, try the demo or the free version.  Nice if it would link to my Genos.
What I'm saying is that, there are a lot of software only music programs out there. I don't know how much it costs to actually make the Genos hardware, planning , design , making the parts and the rest. Is the future software only based, just needs a midi keyboard, I don't know and I hope not, but years ago I expected my two manual organ with pedals and drawbars would be the future for ever.
Anybody got any thoughts?
Oldden.

[Toril S]

I think there always will be people that just want to sit eown and play and be able to hear how it sounds as they play it. So I am not so worried about the future of keyboards.

[EileenL]

I totally agree Toryl,
  In my younger days Organs and keyboards were instruments you learned to play for the joy of it.
We did not want any extra's to make it sound better as we wanted to learn the skill of entertaining by practicing until we nailed it. Live entertainment it was called. Many of us still prefer this to just watch an artist play using there skill and one instrument. Long may this way last.

[mikf]

Some aspects of how music is made will continue to change. But to counterbalance that most traditional musical instruments have not changed much in more than 100 years and remain very popular.
Mike

[Oldden]

I agree Eileen, I learned  to play for the love of it, but my grandchildren and great grandchildren look at things different. To them it's all tablets and touchscreens, there will always be children who want to learn to play pianos, guitars and all the other instruments , but as for most, I don't know. It's a shame, I have had so much joy playing over the years  it will be a shame if we become the last generation to experience it. Fingers crossed for the future.
Oldden

[mikf]

Not a chance that will be the case. Three of my grandchildren play instruments. Thats out of nine, of whom at least 3 are still too young to start. It never was the case that everyone learned instruments, and I dont think the percentage has changed that much. In Asia it is probably higher than ever. 
Mike

[Oldden]

Hi milkf, I do you think you are right in that children will continue to play music. The point I was trying to make is what kind of instrument will they be playing. Will it be , as I hope traditional instruments or something different. Entirely. The cost of manufacturing instruments must be increasing but the cost programming the software will be similar if it's for a physical or just software. Many instruments will, I believe just carry on, but , those like the Genos which I have heard is mainly bought by people over sixty and if the next generation change their needs and there are not enough sales for what is after all a nich instrument, will the Genos type of keyboard vanish. I hope not, just seeing what people's views are.
Oldden

[Ash Of To]

From engineering perspective, it's all about 'real time'!

Being, a proud owner of Genos and,  a retired electrical engineer who developed state of the art hardware and software, in Canada, as recently as 2018, I believe Oldden's intuition is 'dead on'.

Today the, economically viable, consumer technology is at a point where the hardware designs deployed in an Instrument like Genos is necessary for the generation and delivery of  'musical sounds' (with the multi-timbral polyphony offered) and the 'effects' in 'real time' without any perceivable latency. However, as the hardware and software technologies of  smart devices (i.e. laptops , tablets & smart phones) continue to evolve, I believe that in not-too-distant-a-future these platforms will have the necessary 'oomph' needed to enable software only processes to emulate the hardware designs deployed today to deliver similar or better performance in 'real time'.

When this materializes, the musical keyboards will reduce to a set of  black and white keys with pods or connectors or both to connect a smart device which would run the software to provide performances similar to, or better than, an instrument like Genos.

I would not be surprised if development of such offerings are already in the works in labs, of  Yamaha and others, and witness the first generation in the next two or three years!

Ash

[mikf]

Interestingly, although electronic keyboards have evolved over the last 50 years what we play on them has not changed much. They have got better, cheaper and more versatile, all to our advantage. They will continue to evolve, but I don't think it matters very much to us as long as they let us to do what we want - which is play them. Would matter to Yamaha of course, but that is their problem.
Mike

[Oldden]

I think as a final word on the subject , at least from me. I was very tempted to buy a technics KN6500 some years ago, which was a subdivision of Panasonic'. Great keyboard, but not had the pennies at the time, so that was that. Not too long after they stopped making keyboards, not making money, I suppose. It could happen to Yamaha, Roland , anybody. How many companies are cutting back, here in England, too many. On the good side I love my Genos, best instrument I've ever owned,  and if it lasts as long as my PSR3000 which is still going strong, it will last me out for the rest of my life.
Just enjoy whatever you are playing, the future will look after itself.
P.S. I've just learning to play fingerstyle on a ukulele in my seventies , it's shows you are never to old to enjoy playing music.
Oldden.

[Lee Batchelor]

I agree with Eileen.

The Genos and others like it are great for making music at home or entertaining in front of a live audience. With it, you are playing music.

The software equivalents on iPads and PCs are good for manufacturing music. Big difference!

[Aquilauno]

The sound generated by a Stradivarius can be equaled if not exceeded, but the emotion, the pleasure, the satisfaction of playing an instrument built by a great luthier, or play an organ of the '700, or a grand piano with high quality mechanics cannot to be simulated in any way. It is a little like the return to the vinyl record ... the quality of the CD, unchanged over time, is indisputable, but the sound and emotion of an analog reproduction (with merits and defects) of the "old" LP, played on a turntable of the latest generation, is unmatched.
What I foresee is a future keyboard that will reproduce even more faithfully the sounds of instruments, and their nuances with an SA3,  will same as the original, Genos 2 could have a number of even more realistic "styles revo", fill in more complex, as happened with the drums revo. But there will always be young people fascinated by an organ, a guitar, a sax and so on,  the "Classic" instruments will never fade ... so it has been for centuries and so it will be tomorrow.
For Whom, for profession or for pure personal pleasure, love to play a keyboard and entertain public or friends there will always and always will  there be, keyboards for all budgets with many additional functions for increasingly impressive performances.
Pietro (alias Nostradamus LoL)

[Lee Batchelor]

The sound generated by a Stradivarius can be equaled if not exceeded, but the emotion, the pleasure, the satisfaction of playing an instrument built by a great luthier, or play an organ of the '700, or a grand piano with high quality mechanics cannot to be simulated in any way. It is a little like the return to the vinyl record ... the quality of the CD, unchanged over time, is indisputable, but the sound and emotion of an analog reproduction (with merits and defects) of the "old" LP, played on a turntable of the latest generation, is unmatched.
What I foresee is a future keyboard that will reproduce even more faithfully the sounds of instruments, and their nuances with an SA3,  will same as the original, Genos 2 could have a number of even more realistic "styles revo", fill in more complex, as happened with the drums revo. But there will always be young people fascinated by an organ, a guitar, a sax and so on,  the "Classic" instruments will never fade ... so it has been for centuries and so it will be tomorrow.
For Whom, for profession or for pure personal pleasure, love to play a keyboard and entertain public or friends there will always and always will  there be, keyboards for all budgets with many additional functions for increasingly impressive performances.
Pietro (alias Nostradamus LoL)

Agreed and talking about sounds, I think Yamaha's first priority on future Genos keyboards is to provide far greater attention to the piano voice. They have made unparalleled strides in the SA2 voices for wind and brass instruments but their basic piano voice has always lagged behind the rest. The piano is the core voice of this instrument. Why does it receive sub-substandard attention? I'll tell you why. The accountants don't want Yamaha to shoot themselves in the foot. It's a perfect business model but a terrible music model. Hopefully, future Genos models will come with far better piano voices. Tweaking the sound can only take you so far .

[Toril S]

Agreed!

[mikf]

The piano sound is not just a commercial decision. Technically, a great piano voice needs a big sample, which takes up memory space. Think of the complexity of sustain which on the best pianos last a long time, with very complex decay criteria, as not just volume but tone and harmonics all change through the decay. In fact even the very best digital pianos are still far short of the good acoustic.
But it's also wrong to think the piano voice on the arrangers is not decent. In fact piano players are not normally the big critics of the piano voice. My observation is that good piano players think the voice on a good Yamaha arranger is better than ok. Why - because they will have spent their piano playing lives often having to play very bad pianos, and the Genos and the like are better than bad real pianos. They also know that how it played is a much more important than how good the voice is provided the voice is decent. Listen to David Read on the SX. I even still have some recordings of piano playing I made on the old psr 3000 and they sound perfectly fine.
Mike

[DonM]

You might want to check out Varranger.  https://www.varranger.com/
I know several keyboardists that are very happy using this as their arranger. 

[Lee Batchelor]

Technically, a great piano voice needs a big sample, which takes up memory space.

Agreed but memory is cheap and abundant. That's no excuse. My last Nord wasn't an arranger but it had a special memory area dedicated to pianos only. No my friend, Yamaha can do it as they have proven on their Clavinovas. And I agree, we'll never duplicate the sound of a real piano but the Genos is still behind. It's a heck of a lot better than the Tyros but it still needs help.

A lot of VST pianos are stellar and do require a boatload of extra memory but as I mentioned, memory is NOT the problem. Marketing is!

[EileenL]

Depends on what type of memory you are talking about. Some can be very expensive.

[Toril S]

There is a huge difference in sound between the Genos and my Yamaha acoustic piano! Genos comes short, but it has so many other interesting features, and I am not really a piano player anyway. I haven't heard the CVP 809, but it is still not an acoustic piano, so I guess the difference will be there too.

[mikf]

I have two fairly recent clavinovas and there is no doubt that the piano voice is better than the arrangers, even the Genos. But it is not to my ear 'night and day' better. The difference between the Clavinova and my best grand piano is much greater than the difference between the Clavinova and the Genos. The superior  'piano'feel'  of the Clavinova over the Genos is in my opinion a much bigger factor in playing piano than the voice difference.
Some years ago on this forum we did a blind comparison between piano voices. I made a midi of piano playing, and then several people played the midi on their different keyboards and recorded an audio file. They were then posted blind ie without being identified, and people could directly compare. The result was interesting.
We could do this again, I am happy to make a midi and an audio recording on the Clavinova, send it to someone to then make an audio of the midi on a Genos and we can then post both audios blind for comparison.
Mike

[Toril S]

Sounds fun. Please do it Mke. I can make an audio on my sGenos.

[EileenL]

I think for those of us who have not played a real piano and are not pianists then sound is one that is pleasant to our ears. The piano's on Yamaha keyboards can be tweaked to our own liking in what suits us.

[mikf]

Eileen - I'm sure you are right. Yamaha presents the piano voice on the arranger optimized for normal piano playing. Piano players use multiple notes spread across the keyboard and a lot of sustain pedal. Most of the arranger players were not piano players so they are  using the piano voice as a single note lead line in the treble area, and often without sustain pedal. That can give the illusion of a very thin piano sound so many arranger players like the altered piano sounds that are 'thicker'. But for the real piano player these thicker sounds can sound really bad in the lower registers and when sustained and played as big two handed chords. At least that has been my experience.
Mike

[mikf]

Toril- ok i will bang something out when I get a few minutes and send the mdi to you on a private message .
Mike

[Toril S]

Mike, you are spot on! When piano players like you or David Reed play, the sound is great. My instrument before keyboards was accordion. So I really am not able to play the left hand chords properly. I will be taking some lessons next year to get the basics😀

[dalekwars]

Hi folks, I was pottering about the site and came across your chats. I have to say I agree with Eileen, and Mike ( thanks for the compliment by the way Mike!)

I don't know if I mentioned but I was actually sponsored for a few months with the Genos when it first came out . A rare honour indeed from Yamaha and I think they were expecting me to rave about it. After 2 months I actually sent it back as truthfully for me it did too much if that makes sense. I loved the styles , touch screen etc and found many of the sounds fantastic but wasn't impressed with the pianos. It's a purely subjective thing but as a pianist it was almost as though they had tried too hard..my previous PSR S950 to me actually had to my ears a better piano sound. I also found the effects system way over complicated and actually did say that I would like a scaled down PSR model, slightly less involved and easier to navigate...and voila look what came out ha ha. I might add that they were not at all pleased with my comments , but then they didn't realise I think what my needs were, but it wasn't that I wasn't impressed I truly was but I have come through the entire PSR range throughout the years not the Tyros as I always wanted something more portable and found I spent more time actually messing about with the Genos than playing which is not my wish.

  I also totally agree with Mike that the piano was intended not to be a single finger voice like a sax or flute etc and I don't know what the sample of the piano is on the SX900 but I think it's excellent. The keyboard still has many things I haven't yet played about with but for me personally just enough to keep me intrigued but also not too complex which is my personal taste. I would of course love for example a CVP 809 but price and of course dictate otherwise !

I do hope they continue with the PSR range and I think we are safe for a few years yet as Eileen said performing live be it on an organ or keyboard or piano  is a thrill for both performer and listener but can't imagine getting the same joy out of playing a piano roll connected to a computer lol .

[dalekwars]

I was just going to add for interest is that of course the other thing you get on a Yamaha arranger is of course a sample of a Yamaha piano. Despite providing a new Bosendorfer sample in the Genos the Bosendorfer sound again is without being insulting very ' Yamsha'  the funny part of this is that when I gave my first classical recitles on piano in London in the 80s my sponsor was Bosendorfer. The company then of course was not owned by Yamaha and despite all their marketing claiming to be faithful to the original piano it is nothing like as I would have put Bosendorfer very close to a good Steinway back in the 80s. My point is that you are playing a Yamaha sample of some description so if you like Yamaha pianos which are powerful but do tend to be bright then you will like the sound.

I worked for Roland UK for around 4 years and have to say that as piano samples go theirs to my ears is the best on the market and although it was a closely guarded secret their original sample was from a Steinway. ( Their keyboards I might add were never the best...clever and some good features but never equal to Yamaha or Korg. So a Roland supernatural piano in a Yamaha arranger. Yes please lol

[mikf]

My CVP 605 only has the Yamaha sample, but the 705 has the Bosendorfer sample as well as the Yamaha sample. Real Yamaha grand pianos are excellent and I own one. I have played a few Bosendorfers including a couple of their flagship Imperials and the stylish Bosendorfer Porsche and they were all amazing, but it comes at a mind boggling cost!
I  agree with David that while the Bosendorfer voice on the Clavinova is a nice alternative sound, it is not too much like a real Bosendorfer and overall I prefer the Yamaha voice  - opposite of what I feel about the real pianos. The Yamaha voice is crisp and records really well, and maybe this is why Yamaha pianos are such a favorite in recording studios.
Mike