think my Genos is on the blink

[tommac]

Tricky to explain but If I play a particular style with all three voices I have problems. I am only getting the third voice. If I turn off the 3rd voice then the others works fine . Seems to happen on quite a few styles, the third voice seems to overrule the others. Same thing happens on pre loaded Love Song style especially on the C variation. Very weird. Anyone have any ideas please. 

[Aquilauno]

Ho Tomac
quiet it's not a problem of your Genos ... you have to set the spit of the keyboard

...
All three voices of the right hand the same split setting, impostations (R1+R2+R3)

[tommac]

Thanks our posts crossed------i  checked the split--seemed ok------meanwhile I did a system initialize ---hold right hand white key while powering up --seems ok now. I must have set something wrong somewhere -fingers crossed. Phew !!

[Aquilauno]

three days ago the same problem happened to me whit sx900 ... and the split setted (R1 + R2 same values, ​​R3 spit active on only three keys ... I corrected it manually but I didn't understand how it happened ... Now Is al ok...

[EileenL]

In some styles the OTS is set up to work like this. It is done so you can quickly change to a solo voice and then return to the other two by just pressing the Right one and two again. If you do not want this to happen the set your split point as you want it and put the parameter lock on.

[tommac]

Thanks  ------so much to learn

[alanclare]

Thanks  ------so much to learn

Ars longa, vita brevis.

Alan

[tommac]

Ahh but I have time Obi-Wan

[jwyvern]

For completion just be aware that the Genos Data List shows OTS's have no effect on split points including the R3 split which is the one that causes 2 versus 3 voices in this case.
Every time the opinion that OTS's affect split points appears in forums I've made suitable OTS's to test it and the split points fail to be moved (confirming the Data List).
It is primarily Registrations that are designed to, and can affect split points plus manual interference. *
Yes putting parameter lock on for split point will prevent registrations from changing them, but not the latter 
If you do anything which puts a gap of a semitone or more between R3 split point and the other points, that will cause 2 or 1 RH voices to sound, not 3.

*Note a midi song is also capable of changing a split point, but in this case only the Style one. So it is possible (eg. If playing a 3rd P song) , "IF" the song happens to move the style point to the left, a gap is created between it and the fixed R3 split point, in which case when playing the KB live again the RH voice problem will emerge.
I'm guessing because I haven't tried it, that setting Parameter Lock would avoid this too.
John

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  I have had some third party styles and indeed Yamaha styles do this in the past. Remember talking to Yamaha about it. It can also happen using Music Finder.

[jwyvern]

Hi Eileen,
I've tried to keep to the facts. It is difficult to understand how "some styles can do it" when Yamaha's documentation and direct experience say they don't. Unless there are special circumstances, like loading a midi song along with a style during a session causes it to happen so it appears the style has caused it.
Either way, it's not life threatening in present times     

John

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  No it does not happen on Genos. I am going back to Tyros 1 2 and 3 times.

[andyg]

FWIW, my direct experience with most PSR and Tyros models going back to the PSR2000 shows me that whatever the book may say, it can and does happen with OTS and Music Finder. Playlists, being registration based, can obviously do this. I've had to sort it out for students and others many times. Differences between what's in the books and operations in real life are common, not just with Yamaha. Writing an owner's manual is tricky at the best of times - I've done quite a few - and it isn't helped when changes (that may be minor in the minds of the engineer but sometimes with a major effect in real life) are made after the books have been printed and then don't get corrected or an addendum added.

What users should remember is that all of these OTS, Music Finder and Playlist Settings are merely the musical opinions of the person who set them. Most of the 'setters' are good friends of mine and I respect their opinions and settings, though I often disagree with them! And it's sometimes because they do sometimes contain odd key splits.

I've said many times that the 'antidote' to all of this, rather than resorting to resetting, is to create a 'Blank Bank', with just one setting in, that sets the keyboard up exactly as the player wants it. This one setting will then evolve over time as the user finds out more about what they keyboard does and finds out what's best for them. I consider this so important that it's dealt with, along with creating and saving registrations in general, (often in a whole one hour lesson) as soon as the player gets a keyboard in the PSR/PSR-S/PSR-SX and Tyros/Genos classes. And I get all my students to 'roll' their own settings, more involved but ultimately much more fun than using any of the factory settings. OTS and MF quickly become banned in lessons!

[EileenL]

Very good advice Andy,
  Half the fun of getting a new keyboard is making your own settings and molding the keyboard to your own use. I have never used Music Finder as I found most of the suggestions for styles and voices for certain songs were not to my liking. It dose take time to get to know just what your keyboard is capable of but it is well worth it and saves you the panic of thinking your keyboard has gone wrong when it is just user error.

[Bill]

FWIW, my direct experience with most PSR and Tyros models going back to the PSR2000 shows me that whatever the book may say, it can and does happen with OTS and Music Finder.

Hi Andy

I know you are much more competent than I am however I have to disagree with you.  It is very easy to be convinced that OTS can change split points because the people that it has happened to seem so convinced.  When aked they are so sure it almost has to be true.  However, as I have said many times before, they need to provide a suitable Style / OTS so that we can check it out.  I believe that we should not encourage people to follow the belief, otherwise they will never fully understand their keyboards.

Regards

Bill

[Fred Smith]

  I have had some third party styles and indeed Yamaha styles do this in the past. Remember talking to Yamaha about it. It can also happen using Music Finder.

Eileen,

OTS cannot change the split point. There is no style anywhere, on any keyboard, that can change the split point. It's not helpful to intimate this is a possibility, as this just sows confusion among users.

There are only two ways to change the split point:
1. Manually
2. A registration that has the Style group memorized

And #2 can be disabled by setting a Parameter Lock.

Cheers,
Fred

[Dromeus]

I'm confused. Some people seem to have experienced a keyboard split being set from selecting an OTS in the past. If so, it should be very easy to point out a (Yamaha) style where this is going to happen. This should settle the case for all time.

I've never run into such a behaviour in the past. Now this thread is about the Genos and I do own one and no legacy arranger(s). The question is therefore, does it happen on Genos? Can anyone name a Yamaha style or provide a user style, where a split does change when choosing an OTS?

[Fred Smith]

I'm confused.

I've proved my point.

Can anyone name a Yamaha style or provide a user style, where a split does change when choosing an OTS?

No, they can't.

Cheers,
Fred

[andyg]

I couldn't tell you what style/OTS does this. I've only been asked to rectify the situation on numerous occasions and the players concerned couldn't remember. I asked them if they've been using OTS or Music Finder and the answer has always been yes. As for me, I wouldn't go near an OTS/MF or Playlist setting in a million years, so it hasn't happened to me personally.

But can anyone tell me exactly how the split point issue occurs, with a player that has no knowledge of how to access the split point via the menu screens, and who relies purely on OTS and MF for their sound set ups. And yes, sometimes I've been there, reset the split points and they call me some time later and tell me it's done it again. And no, they're not using third party registrations - they don't load or save anything.

[EileenL]

No as I said before it dose not happen on Genos on board style OTS. It can happen on some third party styles OTS settings and in the past I have re-saved quite a few to the correct split point. I have had Yamaha keyboards right from the PSR6700 and can assure you I am not dreaming about this. It has happened.

[Fred Smith]

But can anyone tell me exactly how the split point issue occurs

It occurs by either:
— changing it manually
— a registration changing it

It's that simple. And, you're not helping them by intimating a mysterious style may have done it.

Students make all sorts of mistakes. You know that.

Cheers,
Fred

[Fred Smith]

No as I said before it dose not happen on Genos on board style OTS. It can happen on some third party styles OTS settings and in the past I have re-saved quite a few to the correct transpose. I have had Yamaha keyboards right from the PSR6700 and can assure you I am not dreaming about this. It has happened.

Transpose? We're talking about a style changing the split point, which it cannot do.

Cheers,
Fred

[Toril S]

I had an incident on my S970 where a third party style changed the chords so they sounded strange. A soft reset solved the problem. So I guess styles sometimes CAN mess up the keyboard.

[EileenL]

Yes Toryl,
  Some third party styles can do strange things.

[andyg]

It occurs by either:
— changing it manually
— a registration changing it

It's that simple. And, you're not helping them by intimating a mysterious style may have done it.

Students make all sorts of mistakes. You know that.

Cheers,
Fred

Re read the question please Fred. They don't use registrations at all and they don't know how to change things manually.

So I ask again, how does it happen?

[Fred Smith]

Re read the question please Fred. They don't use registrations at all and they don't know how to change things manually.

So I ask again, how does it happen?

How does it happen? I think it's combination of voices used. That's just as plausible as your saying it's the style.

You're not helping your students on this issue, Andy.

Cheers,
Fred

[Dromeus]

Let's stick to the facts:

. The OTS section of a style uses standard MIDI messages (program change, control changes, sy*** messages) to setup the keyboard voices.
. There is NO documented sy*** message that allows you to set the Left or Right3 split points.
. There is a Style Split Point sy*** message (which does what it says).
. It is (at least to me) unknown, if there is an undocumented sy*** message that allows you to set the Left or Right3 split points.
. There is a Yamaha Meta Event (Keyboard Voice) that allows you setup keyboard voices including split points. It is unknown if this event would be effective when recalling an OTS.

Conclusions:

. Assumed the Keyboard Voice Meta Event would be feasible in an OTS, it would overwrite the ordinary MIDI messages setting up the voices. It just does not make any sense to do that. Unless we know that Meta Events are ignored in OTS there is a theoretical possibility that a Keyboard Voice Meta Event changes split points, but I think that's highly unlikely that anyone would ever include these in OTS.
. There are undocumented but known sy*** messages that affect keyboard voices. So it's absolutely valid to assume that there exist sy*** messages to set the split points. As far as I know such sy***es are not known.
. Genos (or Tyros) does not allow you to set split points in OTS (as Fred pointed out). This is by intention and the use of undocumented sy***es to set split points with OTS would clearly violate the rules. It is highly unlikely that Yamaha programmers would make use of this feature.
. You cannot exclude that third party style creators would use such a sy*** (if existing and known to the developer) even if that is clearly against the rules. Again it's highly unlikely to happen.

Summary:

There is a theoretical possibility for OTS to change split points. The probability that it could be done and is used in OTS is very low, close to zero. Unless someone comes up providing a style that can change split points (which then can be analysed how it's done) it is wise to assume that it's just a legend.

[Aquilauno]

Hi peoples
I agree with Fred, the problem I faced last week on SX900, so it's not just Genos. The thing I notice is that the problem always seems to concern the R3 voice and only that. The problem occurred on many styles (Whit ACMP in On, Voice R3 was set in a "different" way compared to R1 and R2).
WhenI have manual setup the split, the problem disappeared. Now what have I done different than two weeks ago? I have converted some Music Finder to Playlist ... could this be the reason?
I don't know ... what I thought I knew is what Fred said ... 1) split modified by a recording 2) split modified manually by the user.
Since I rearranged the split, the problem hasn't returned.
The split is set to (ACMP on,  R1 + R2 + R3) and no style has changed this to date.
Pietro
PS:
among other things, once the SX900 is turned off and back on, the split should return to its place by itself or am I wrong?

[Fred Smith]

among other things, once the SX900 is turned off and back on, the split should return to its place by itself or am I wrong?

Yes. A power off/on cycle will not change the split setting. It stays where it was.

Cheers,
Fref