5GB or more Expansion memory-Yamaha you can do it!!!

[Bachus]

I agree with you 100%.  There are many features from their synths going way back 20 years that could be ported over to the arranger and add great value and an element of creativity for the player.  Especially the TOTL arranger... considering its price point.

Remember, Yamaha never take away features, they just add more to the next arranger release. We still don't know how many new features could be added to the Genos and PSR-sx arrangers with OS updates. Like an Arpeggiator Editor, Voice Editor, add more arpeggios, more DSPs, etc.  We know they increased the capacity of the MIDI on-board sequencer and changed the fonts for display, etc.

Joe H

There is so many easy improvements they could make... and then i am not talking about implementing the latest VCM organs and piano's.  Or an FM, VA or VL synth engine...  this would be nice for the next Genos tough..

No much more basic things.. like being able to add different arps to every sound
Having access to arps as a searchable item, just like sounds and styles, being able to save them on USB
Having a choice when not using a midi file, to get into a pro mode, with 8 voices and a style part, each voice having 2 dsp effects and an arp..  you basically would create a modx this way inside the genos..  with just assigning resources differently....

Better interaction with a pc or an ipad... i think an ipad could be the perfect tool for indepth sound design, package management, and even midi editing with a piano roll (or audio edditing) if Yamaha converted one of their piano apps to just do this... also integrating the sheet music part.. and maybe even piano/keyboard practice by supporting a tool like piano marvel..

But also being able to create your own SA1 voices would be great..
or access to soundmondo, which is an online database from Yamaha where modx/montage owners can share sounds and performances they created.  Easy searchable with an ipad app.

And so many other things...  like adding a Bosendorefer Imperial piano sound to their onboard sounds, there is still enough free ram to do this..

I think Yamaha's financial interest in selling content trough the website might have been holding them back. This might be exactly the reason whey Yamaha stopped with paid expansion, this allows them to develop more tools for the users to become more creative with their instruments, witouth people in the company referring to the expansion packs as a reason not to do this.


Only time will tell, but i guess we will see atleast 2 more major updates to Genos in its lifetime with more new feautures and improvements.

[blackpool]

I must admit that it has always baffled me that Yamaha put so little space for storage in their magnificent keyboards. I love the big hard drive on my Tyros. But my S975 is full after putting some midi files and maybe 100 styles in user memory. I prefer storing things on the keyboard, then it is always there. An USB stick may be forgotten. And for expansion..... Well, you have mentioned it. But Yamaha may have a reason for keeping the memory small, who knows, I am not a data savvy person.

Thats why I liked the hidden compartment on my Genos for a 'fixed external' USB, which worked just like additional user memory, I had a 32gig in mine which was more than I would have ever needed . pity this is not on the SX.

Simply bung a connected, hidden flash drive inside the cabinet when they are making the thing ...End of problem for user storage and it would hardly cost much and keep everybody happy! ...i know and dont see why you cant use this for expansion, i am not that technical...i own a car but I dont understand what goes on under the bonnet!
As for expansion ....dont get me started!!  everything in my view should be 'load and play' with no manager required!

The very reason I prefer Yamaha to the difficult OS Korg operates, is so I can work on the keyboard itself and hardly need to use a laptop/tablet to manage my files.

If I can't manage with preset /legacy voices /styles  plus my easily loaded external styles/voices and regis ...then i recon it's a poor situation. These latest keyboards have hundreds of options pre-loaded and if you include legacy, then its 1000's  plus your own, then its endless!

I just have my full external library of styles and voices on user and i can quickly search and load what i need if ever i am stuck for choice..

I do hope they are not moving the way Korg operates by having you need a keyboard management app. before you install extra stuff.

I like to play not administrate! 

Keith 

[rbackes]

I think, with the 3GB we are on the upper limit. Maybe Yamaha can free some more bytes, but I think, the remaining 1 GB is in use for internal voice or effects.
What is also not known, whether the tone generator chip can support more than 4 GB of sample storage - the user memory is connected to another interface that works more like a hard disk. The sample storage is addressed (as I suppose) like RAM or ROM.

I can only imagine one way to get 'more' room for samples. This would be using the user-memory as storage for the sample voices and move them in and out of the 4 GB sample storage as needed.

But this means: No user memory - you have to rely on USB storage for your files (styles, Registrations, MIDI etc.) - for me no deal, as I already use an USB Stick for my storage, not the user memory.
But Yamaha would need to rewrite or at least review  big portions of their code to implement this swapping. And I don't think they will do this.

Before I bought my GENOS, I was thinking about building my own arranger with a MIDI-controller, a PC and a bunch of Software. But then I realized: I want to make music, not fiddeling arround with software that does not really co-operate.
And that is why I got my GENOS.

Rainer

[DerekA]

When I got my S770 I was super excited to have about 150MB expansion space. And I could load more than one pack at once! Remember before that it was one pack at a time - and then only from Yamaha's limited range.

We're so spolied now with 3GB, a large selection of third party packs, plus soundfonts and anything we make from our own samples.

There's always room for more, but I'm also grateful for what I have right now

[Joe H]

... I can only imagine one way to get 'more' room for samples. This would be using the user-memory as storage for the sample voices and move them in and out of the 4 GB sample storage as needed...
Rainer

You can't use the User memory for samples or expansion pack Voices. It's used for styles, Multi Pads, Registrations and MIDI files.

Joe H

[Bachus]

You can't use the User memory for samples or expansion pack Voices. It's used for styles, Multi Pads, Registrations and MIDI files.

Joe H

Its also a different type of memmory..   in the processing structure its further away from the processors..
The voice memmory is very close to teh SWP 700 processors.

[blackpool]

Bachus  -  i fully get your point, but as i said in part of my earlier post ...' i know and dont see why you cant use internal memory for expansion' ... Everything should simply be 'load and play' It cant be that difficult to homogenise it all, Seems to me they are little more than additional voices and styles. Then as i said, i am no technical expert.

I believe the 'detachment' has always been tactical ...as a second income stream, which is understandable, I do it in my own business for ancillary sales, good on Yamaha!
But if packs are going to become FOC, then just have enough memory to load them direct and a simple library to access them from, ( no manager required, just an owners password ) This would encourage more 'core product' sales in my opinion, ...It would also enable better data gathering for product takeup ...and be great for satisfying future sales trends.
buy hey ho what do i know??

I cant stress the point enough .... i am all about 'playing' and not spending time messing with files.
Just give me a keyboard that is 'self contained'

Keith

[rbackes]

You can't use the User memory for samples or expansion pack Voices. It's used for styles, Multi Pads, Registrations and MIDI files.

Joe H

You can't currently do this. But one can imagine (or dream of) a firmware that is able to move voices (samples) in and out of the 4 GB sample memory as needed. So you could load a voice like you load a style or registration - on the fly.

Rainer

[metcam]

Nothing was taken away, it's just implemented differently or improved.

Joe H

Copy/paste single note from custom voice/drum to another custom voice/drum. CLEARLY not existing any more .
Was on T2,T3 and T4.

Best regards!

[chony]

A couple of points.

Americans don't realize that they are in the tiny minority of arranger players. In fact, as has been noted, the majority of players in America are seniors and small gig performers. What you don't realize is that there is a whole world of cultural musicians you don't even know about. Whether Arab, Asian, Jewish, Indian and more who are young, professional and perform for young crowds, and we charge a lot of money for it. I know multiple musicians (including myself) who charge over $2000 a gig and work over 100 times a year and the Genos or Pa4x is our instrument. And there tens of thousands of us.

So if Yamaha wants to sell more keyboards and have a bigger business market looking towards the future, not to mention people who can actually afford to pay $6k for a machine, it has to keep up not with the basic needs of Eileen and others who consistently and predictably downplay every time we ask for an upgrade, but with the emerging and current young markets of those of us who are taking music to its limits. And yes, a drum mixer, synthesizer, multi band EQ, and full editing of voices are basic requests.

And getting back to the original topic: yes I know 3gb is currently the most any keyboard offers. Kudos to Yamaha on that. But to be a truly pro keyboard, and to meet the potential of this beast, there should be options for upgrades. For example, if Yamaha would charge me another $5k for 50gb of flash, I would pay it in less than a heart beat and I would use it!

Edit: It's not just people here in America who don't realize the potential and market of this keyboard, I'm convinced Yamaha themselves don't realize it!

[metcam]

A couple of points.

Americans don't realize that they are in the tiny minority of arranger players. In fact, as has been noted, the majority of players in America are seniors and small gig performers. What you don't realize is that there is a whole world of cultural musicians you don't even know about. Whether Arab, Asian, Jewish, Indian and more who are young, professional and perform for young crowds, and we charge a lot of money for it. I know multiple musicians (including myself) who charge over $2000 a gig and work over 100 times a year and the Genos or Pa4x is our instrument. And there tens of thousands of us.

So if Yamaha wants to sell more keyboards and have a bigger business market looking towards the future, not to mention people who can actually afford to pay $6k for a machine, it has to keep up not with the basic needs of Eileen and others who consistently and predictably downplay every time we ask for an upgrade, but with the emerging and current young markets of those of us who are taking music to its limits. And yes, a drum mixer, synthesizer, multi band EQ, and full editing of voices are basic requests.

And getting back to the original topic: yes I know 3gb is currently the most any keyboard offers. Kudos to Yamaha on that. But to be a truly pro keyboard, and to meet the potential of this beast, there should be options for upgrades. For example, if Yamaha would charge me another $5k for 50gb of flash, I would pay it in less than a heart beat and I would use it!

Edit: It's not just people here in America who don't realize the potential and market of this keyboard, I'm convinced Yamaha themselves don't realize it!

AMEN!!!!!


If I have a chance to choose between :

1. GENOS 50gb flash upgrade only 

              or   

2. Genos2 with 5gb flash 

I will choose Genos 50 gb upgrade no matter what cost is.

[EileenL]

Well Choney
  Thanks for the mention and by the way I am English not American. A forum is a place where everyone is entitled to put there own opinion. Yamaha like any other manufacturer has to cater for everyone and it is well known by them and others, that the majority of these keyboards are sold to Senior people who when they retire have the time and money to purchase these great keyboards. They also still gig and make good money. Whilst we have been in lock down I have listened to some great professional players just using Genos as it is and the music has been brilliant.

[chony]

Hi Eileen,

You are a great contributor to this forum and I don't discount your knowledge and professionalism.

But almost every time somebody asks for an upgrade or makes a feature request we can rest assured that you (and a few others) are going to discount our opinions.

Yes of course it's a forum and everyone should express their opinions. But when all your opinion does is diminish someone else's concern or request while providing no benefit to yourself it's may be better left unsaid.

The requests we make do no harm to the way you use the keyboard. We are not ever asking for removal of any features. We are just requesting new features for our own needs. It doesn't require a rebuttal each and every time.

You yourself note that the majority of these keyboards are sold to seniors. Well, that's a real short sighted business plan, isn't it. It basically guarantees the demise of this product within a decade or two. Your own words prove that Yamaha needs to modernize and cater to the evolution of music creation.

We aren't asking for change. We are asking for new features.

Respectfully.

[metcam]

But almost every time somebody asks for an upgrade or makes a feature request we can rest assured that you (and a few others) are going to discount our opinions.

Yes of course it's a forum and everyone should express their opinions. But when all your opinion does is diminish someone else's concern or request while providing no benefit to yourself it's may be better left unsaid.

The requests we make do no harm to the way you use the keyboard. We are not ever asking for removal of any features. We are just requesting new features for our own needs. It doesn't require a rebuttal each and every time.



We aren't asking for change. We are asking for new features.

Respectfully.

YES!!! We aren't asking for change. We are asking for new features.

Well said Chony!!

Best regards to all musicians from all around of the world !!

[groovyband.live]

You yourself note that the majority of these keyboards are sold to seniors. Well, that's a real short sighted business plan, isn't it. It basically guarantees the demise of this product within a decade or two.

That is the plain and hard truth.

Having the bulk of your buyers aged 70÷90 is not a future proof business. No need to have a master in business administration to understand that.

Sure, you can sell them today outdated tech at jewelry prices, but then the lucrative business will soon end. And the seniors of tomorrow will be much more tech savvy (and probably with less money, and with today's government debts to pay).

[Bachus]

Having the bulk of your buyers aged 70÷90 is not a future proof business. No need to have a master in business administration to understand that.

So true...

But for everyone else Yamaha is selling the Montage and modx?

I can see Yamaha moving features of the Genos towards the Montage line, while the arrangerbuiseness slowly dies..

Doyou know Ketron's launchpad feature?   I think every montage player would love arranger tech in such a pro form...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Oh the exitement of free packs
Destroys your memory!!

Why not get all the sounds that you want and put them all in a couple of packs and leave the duff ones out that you do not use?
In other words ,clean out the junk and have a tidy house.


All the best
John

[EileenL]

Yes John,
I totally agree. What is the use of wasting memory on things you won't use.

[blackpool]

Yes... this is the very point I was making earlier in the thread... if these files are available now free of charge .. Then simply offer a library of available specific and individual voices and styles from any of the packs collectively for owners to 'load and play' the ones they like..who needs a manager? Monitoring downloads to owners would profile user trends for specific consumer needs and popularity...
Would solve onboard flash shortage...
Tesco and the like have been consumer profiling for years...why not Yamaha ... they are missing a trick in my view ..
Keith

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

hi
Cant see that  profiling working
Yamaha will not send me a bottle of whiskey or a packet of hob nobs!!!

All the best
John

[EileenL]

The way round this is to just load the voices you are going to use by taking the ticks out of the ones you don't want.
Same with the styles. If you only like four voices in the pack then just load those.

[blackpool]

hi
Cant see that  profiling working
Yamaha will not send me a bottle of whiskey or a packet of hob nobs!!!

All the best
John

That would NOT be the case here - nothing would need to be 'sent' for free  ....other than files contained in the expansion which are already available FOC.....all simply done on-line ...by download analytics, a user profile could easily be achieved looking at what owners choose to download and dont, with feedback requested for likes/dislikes by Yamaha . The system could easily be password protected to avoid abuse. 
This in turn would be a great basis to provide more popular and suitable future file publications/releases  ....win win..
And i am talking here about individual file componets of packs in a communal library , not as they are now, in a 'pack' form and need to be managed.... not sure if this is possible? .

[EileenL]

I can't see that working unless they set up a site like CMS has with each voice an individual pack. They seem to have enough problems with there site already without adding to them.
  As you say a lot of people just want to switch on and play and are quite happy to just use on board voices and they enjoy it. Others like to experiment with sounds and styles to make there music a little different. What ever you like to do the main thing always is that you enjoy it.

[pjd]

Hi --

Just read through the thread. Bachus (and others) have done a good job explaining the current memory situation. Sorry I haven't posted much lately, but I'm just trying to play more and enjoy life near our grandson.

The hardware in Genos and even the SX700/SX900 is divided into two parts: host computer and tone generation. The host computer handles styles and sequencing. The tone generator section makes all the noise.    So, there is  memory in the host computer (USER memory) and separate memory in the tone generator (voice expansion memory). The type of memory used in each is specialized for the task: eMMC flash for USER memory and NAND flash memory for the tone generator.

The tone generator is itself a very specialized, parallel computing system. It has its own DSP RAM, etc. The factory waveforms and user waveforms (AKA "samples") reside in the same physical NAND flash memory belonging to the tone generator. It is the same kind of NAND flash used in PC SSDs. Yamaha eliminated the SATA bus to lower cost and increase access speed. The expansion memory is soldered to the printed circuit board and, thus, is not easily removed and replaced. Even if you replaced it, as Bachus pointed out, the software would not recognize the additional memory capacity.

Yamaha's tone generator is designed for the long run. It is used in synths and high-end digital pianos, too. The tone generator has ports and features which are not currently used. They are for future products. You might feel gypped, but that's the way the game is played -- spread design cost over 5 to 10 years and multiple evolving product cycles.

Hope this helps -- pj

[overover]

Thank you very much, PJ, for this brief but comprehensive explanation on "Memory types of the Genos"!


Best regards,
Chris

[groovyband.live]

The tone generator is itself a very specialized, parallel computing system. It has its own DSP RAM, etc. The factory waveforms and user waveforms (AKA "samples") reside in the same physical NAND flash memory belonging to the tone generator. It is the same kind of NAND flash used in PC SSDs. Yamaha eliminated the SATA bus to lower cost and increase access speed. The expansion memory is soldered to the printed circuit board and, thus, is not easily removed and replaced.

Just checked on Amazon. Cutting edge NAND SSDs, for a 500 Gb size, cost on average 50€, including case, package, and shipping to your door.

The 4 Gb soldered on the Genos (and top of the line Montage synth) is worth therefore less than 40 cents. I clearly see why they did not include a connector to expand the storage: it would cost much more than the provided NAND chips.

There are also around devices with specialised parallel computing systems (many cores cpus in the gigahertz range, plus hundred cores gpus, sourcing data from system ram (with tens of gb/s of bandwidth)) that cost only a few tens of €. The whole device, not only the computing chips. I am talking about smartphones and single board computers. Low power fanless devices mostly running on batteries.

So the whole point of Yamaha proprietary HW architecture (used on all their products, most of which, in terms of units sold, are toys class products sold at toys prices) is to cost as low as possible. In the peanuts range.

If then they can also manage to include the peanuts in a 4k€ product and sell it, that is extremely good for them.

[danand]

If you're sure that you know how to build keyboards using parts from Amazon, why don't you start your own keyboard company?
I'm sure that in a short time, with all the knowledge you have (the market needs, where to find spare parts for peanuts etc. etc.) beating companies like Yamaha (130+ in the market), Korg (60 years in business), Roland (50 years building reliable machines) it is a mater of a few months...

[EileenL]

Honestly there really is some rubbish posted on here. I really don't know where people get there prices from. Cloud cookoo land I would suspect or some where that peanuts are plentiful.

[gary3917]

Why cant we just load the styles only and save the exp pack on a USB ? Why do I have to load it thru YEM ? Again...why not load exp packs on USB and use it as you need it instead of running out of space on my T-5 ? EI ...load exp packs all on usb and use it as you need it ?
Gary

[EileenL]

Because these are sampled sounds and some of the packs are quite large they require handling differently that is why we have the Flash memory on our keyboards. Once a pack is loaded in you can them save the registrations from it and also the styles to a USB stick but these may be using some of the new voices in them. If you then remove the pack you will probably have to re-voice some of the styles with your own choices.