Fantastic News For Genos Users- YAMAHA GENOS Version 24.01KN

[filoaman]

There are many companies that have sampled vintage keyboards and sell the samples as WAV or SF2.  Does anyone know if they pay royalties?

Joe H

Record of a Rhodes piano (vintage keyboard) or a Hammond (vintage keyboard)
has NO COPYRIGHT !!!!!!!

I try to explain this to members but they don't want to understand.

But if you use the samples E-MU or Yamaha, or Korg make of an old Rhodes or VOX then YOU BROKE THE LAW.
It is different to make your OWN samples of the original Rhodes or Hammond and a completely different story if you make samples from Korg Kronos, or Yamaha Montage.

In the first case you own the material and you have the copyright of the samples, in the second case you just broke the copyright law!
It is very simple (for anyone who want to understand - unfortunately this forum is full of people who already know anything about everything so no reason to repeat basic things...)

And I repeat once again:
It is copyright infringement if you make samples (form copyright material, not form acoustic instruments) if you distribute the material to others for a price or even for free.

It is NOT a copyright infringement, if you make samples for your personal use (even using this material live for your gigs, although form a copyright infringement, I don't think that will generate any problems).
But if you distribute, this samples, YES you brake the law.

[Pino]

Eileen
I hope that you are right, if you look at the Bartman demos and all the arranger demos mostly older men with grey hair.
So something has to change somewhere.

I did play midi with a female vocalist for over 20 years and now back to playing style on the arranger but I am up against stiff competition, your normal listener in a restaurant or on a gig couldn't care a frig if you pay style or SMF or Audio, all they want is wine and good music.
So, I've just ordered a Roland Fantom.

none of my arranger playing friends play any organ music on any gigs cos it's so dated,
times are a changing  -  all the time.

Pino

[filoaman]

You to...

I notιce that when you don't have any serious argument you try to downgrade the conversation and convert it to something ridiculous.

If you have any serious argument, I'm here to listen.

[Des O]

Please read again carefully what I wrote.
I don't mention nothing about "public performance"
I also mention that acoustic instruments (like piano) and analog synths are copyright free. 
I don't mention that anyone owns royalties for playing a specific in instrument.

You don't read and only criticize.

In the collection  in question there are HUGE issues with copyright infringement.
This is international law. This is not what i believe or you believe.
If you want to use this material is under your own risk, I have no problem.
Is the same when you pass a red light on the street.
If a policemen see you he will issue a fine, if not, no problem
Exactly the same here. You can use this material forever even for commercial proposes and maybe no-one will take notice about this. And maybe you release a tune on Spotify using the copyrighted material (I repeat NOT ALL THE MATERIAL from Cris collection is copyrighted) and maybe you receive a notice from the local court for copyright infringement.

Do it at your own risk.

The issue I have with a few members here is, that they don't understand how serious is this.
They just laugh and try to low the importance of this issue to a ridiculous level.

But please bear in mind that what anyone write in public stay in public and maybe another member can form the opinion that copyright it is not important and he/she can copy anything.
This is quite dangerous.

If you don't know about the laws, don't make strong decelerations and don't provide misleading advice.

Laws on a society are in order to live all together in balance.
If you don't like a law, depending on the part of the world you live, you can  use the powers you have (vote, demonstrations, participation on unions  etc.) trying to change the law.
Braking the law is not the solution. Is bad for the society and soon or later someone will brake another law and maybe in this case you will be the victim. This game is dangerous.

Furthermore the most dangerous of all is providing misleading advises to other members which maybe brake the law in the future following you erroneous advice.

Did you not see my quote; "I don't think hes breaking any laws on copyright IMO" on the post? I though this forum was to give opinions and advice rather than point fingers. Lighten up, I have not seen anyone or heard of anyone being prosecuted for sampling sound (other than songs without permission of the copyright holder) out there in the public domain, including keyboard samples. If it did it opens up a whole new can of worms. I dont know why I even bothered to post this news, i thought I was just being thoughtful.

[filoaman]

This is a small part, from Roland's web site. Just a small fraction of the whole copyright statement

"Many types of copyrighted content, such as Roland's proprietary musical tunes, sound sources, and performance data created by our engineers are installed in our products. Roland has also implemented a strong copyright protection program for its associated marketing material, technical information, images, sounds, and other features, in addition to our copyrighted product content.
For example, Roland engineers work tirelessly to reproduce the best acoustic instrumental sounds and store them digitally in our products for customer use. These are all protected from unauthorized copying, distribution and sale under various copyright statutes."

If you still believe that this is a game and every one can do whatever wants, go ahead at your own risk.....

[Pino]

I for one will play any copyright style or Voice or any sample
I think we paid enough for our keyboards to be our own masters here.
If it's up there and it will improve your performance
Go for it.

Pino

[Al Ram]

Not sure how this thread went from someone sharing samples to a copyright discussion.

I think that there is no reason to try to convince people either way.   Once a person expressed her/his  point of view . . . great . . . now let people decide what they want to do . . . .

Either way . . . if they want to follow up the copyright advise great . . . if they do not . . . great too . . . . . that's their own decision. . . . .

Let's move forward.

Thanks

[EileenL]

Yes Pino times are changing and so are keyboards. They are sounding more and more realistic and do a fine job of entertaining. Of course this will always depend on the talent of the player also.

[SciNote]

I realize that this thread has taken a turn, but I always find copyright discussions interesting, because if you're going to be distributing patches, sounds, or full musical compositions in any way, then it is always good to have an idea of what the law is.  Please note that I am not accusing anyone of copyright infringement, but just commenting on what I've seen about copyright law and what has been discussed in this thread so far.  Of course, my disclaimer applies in that I am not a lawyer, so always check on the laws yourself before taking any action.

I'm in the US, and when I went on the government's copyright website to copyright some of my own songs, one of the guidelines it essentially said is that the subject itself is not copyrightable.  I'm not quoting verbatim, but it went something like, if you happen to see Elvis and take a picture of Elvis, then that photo of yours can be copyrighted.  But the subject, which in this case is Elvis, does not have a copyright, so that someone else in the area can also take their own picture of Elvis with their own camera, and they do not have to pay any royalties to you to use their own photo.

Now, where it gets interesting is what we're talking about here... taking a sample (like an audio image) of a digital sound creation that someone else has taken the time to put together, and I can see where taking and distributing that sample would be copyright infringement, if you don't get permission from the person or company that created the original sound creation.  I would say that the photographic equivalent of this, going back to our Elvis scenario, would be that if you took a photo of Elvis and got copyright protection on that photo, and then someone else then used their camera to take a photo OF YOUR PHOTO, and then distributed the resulting photo (theoretically a copy of the photo you took) without your permission.  Again, I'm not a lawyer, but that does sound like copyright infringement.

Of course, what we're talking about here is actually taking those sampled sounds and distributing them to other people for them to use in their instruments.  Now, if you just use those sampled sounds on your own instrument in a performance, I don't know if that would be copyright infringement or not.  Of course, when you buy a keyboard and it has various sounds programmed into it, I believe the manufacturer, such as Yamaha, would expect you to use those sounds in a performance, and perhaps grants you a license for that, though that is just a guess on my part about how it works.  But when using sounds that were copied to your instrument digitally without the consent of the person or company who holds the copyright to those sounds, it could be different.

One other thing -- the DX-7 is actually a digital synthesizer, not analog.  However, it does produce its sounds through a process of setting various parameters to zero in on a desired sound, as opposed to using a sampled waveform, so in that regard, it is similar to an old-school analog synthesizer in sound creation.  But then again, since the parameters are a specific set of numerical values, as opposed to just approximate positions of potentiometers, and those sets of parameters can be stored digitally, I bet those DX-7 patches could, indeed, be copyrighted.

Again, interesting discussion, and as long as we don't get too heated and accusatory, this could be good information to know.

[DerekA]

I would say that the photographic equivalent of this, going back to our Elvis scenario, would be that if you took a photo of Elvis and got copyright protection on that photo, and then someone else then used their camera to take a photo OF YOUR PHOTO, and then distributed the resulting photo (theoretically a copy of the photo you took) without your permission.  Again, I'm not a lawyer, but that does sound like copyright infringement.
.

I think this is the clearest explanation of this issue I've seen so far - thanks

[Bachus]

I think this is the clearest explanation of this issue I've seen so far - thanks

But then they are not making pictures of that foto..
They are making the same picture os someone that looks like Elvis a lot, but is not ELVIS..
They are not even taking pictures of it, they are painting, which is a Creative process, which does not really copy anything but makes an artist representation of a picture that looks like the original picture.. 
Sampling is not a straightforward process... you need to set loop points and such and edit the samples to your liking.

[Del]

Legal or illegal it would be interesting to see how many people would down load these samples if they were on offer for free in this forum, and I bet the download rate would be high

[computec1349]

Exactly the same thing happened with the GHENOS pack, until they realized it was legal and stopped bothering.

Best Regards.

[Bachus]

Legal or illegal it would be interesting to see how many people would down load these samples if they were on offer for free in this forum, and I bet the download rate would be high

I would download them, mostly interested in the piano sellection he has.

[markstyles]

Yamaha plainly says, you may not repackage these samples and sell them.. But since he isn't selling them..  That is an important difference. 

The main issue is,  some kbd maker is not going to spend $50K to sue your retired Uncle Ned who lives in Scotland and only has $6,000 to his name.. It won't be worth it. 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Yeah, Uncle Ned is over 75 and is losing is TV licence!!
Let's hope he keeps his heating allowance because it is cold up there in Scotland

[DerekA]

We had about 21 degrees in Edinburgh today, which they be honest is about as much as I can take! 😎

[zionip]

Kris Nicholson decided not to share his expansion pack unless Yamaha tells him it is OK for him to share:
https://www.facebook.com/kris.nicholson.92

Hi everybody
Sorry to say I decided NOT!!! to release my sound expansion Yamaha Genos 24.01KN
Not only I took the time to do this expansion pack and still correcting lots of the sounds to make them perfect , but also I took the time to read each and every single comments on the web and even my private messaging from sites blasting me for stealing sounds from my own keyboard collection and being a fraud which I'm not.
I am a professional Pianist and synthesist I owned several of my keyboards throughout the years and sampled many of them to combine in one keyboard which I did also with my Roland Fantom X8, Korg Kronos & Korg PA Series now Genos
I am always sampling things almost every day or every chance that I can get I also tell people if you were to walk into my house or enter into my studio you are being recorded because I do sample even Atmospheric, Piano Riffs, Bands, or hook lines even in our conversations Believe me I have plenty wave data
I do have to admit that Some of the sounds BUT NOT ALL !!! were Soundfonts that I took and edit to the max to have the most realistic and I sent to sound true to either the instrument or the mood
What I thought was going to be cool and nice that I can share with people my sounds and samples of most of my keyboard collection but turned out to me to be nothing lots of hateful comments from people and I don't want anybody to blame me for copyright law or any beef with keyboard companies wich I'm great friends with Yamaha, Casio, Korg, Roland, Emu, Technics, Steinway, Samick and all the company I know.
So sorry to say there will be no release date for this expansion bundle if unless I have absolute permission from Yamaha saying that I will not be blamed or sued for any copyright laws or wrongdoing for taking samples off of my own keyboard collection that I owned for years
For now I decided I'm just i'm going to keep the samples for myself if I hear from Yamaha seeing yes I can release the free expansion pack or if they would like to collaborate and help me with it then yes I will apply by there rules
Thank you everybody who has supported me with this wild adventure and please understand that once I do projects like these I like to give my talent from the kindness of my heart just to make people happy of whatever I can provide them but if I'm gonna be chastise and put in a spotlight for things that I am not then I take my talent back
I WILL KEEP MY LIBRARY FOR MYSELF!!!!!!
Love you all keep safe
Kris Nicholson 

[EileenL]

I am sorry that Kris went though all this nastiness he received on this forum for trying to be kind and trying to do the right thing by seeking permission from people before he went ahead.
The moderators were totally wrong to allow this attack to go on. Not even sure if we have any active ones any more anyway.
In these days of stress it is about time we became kinder to everyone.

[Des O]

Kris Nicholson decided not to share his expansion pack unless Yamaha tells him it is OK for him to share:
https://www.facebook.com/kris.nicholson.92

Hi everybody
Sorry to say I decided NOT!!! to release my sound expansion Yamaha Genos 24.01KN
Not only I took the time to do this expansion pack and still correcting lots of the sounds to make them perfect , but also I took the time to read each and every single comments on the web and even my private messaging from sites blasting me for stealing sounds from my own keyboard collection and being a fraud which I'm not.
I am a professional Pianist and synthesist I owned several of my keyboards throughout the years and sampled many of them to combine in one keyboard which I did also with my Roland Fantom X8, Korg Kronos & Korg PA Series now Genos
I am always sampling things almost every day or every chance that I can get I also tell people if you were to walk into my house or enter into my studio you are being recorded because I do sample even Atmospheric, Piano Riffs, Bands, or hook lines even in our conversations Believe me I have plenty wave data
I do have to admit that Some of the sounds BUT NOT ALL !!! were Soundfonts that I took and edit to the max to have the most realistic and I sent to sound true to either the instrument or the mood
What I thought was going to be cool and nice that I can share with people my sounds and samples of most of my keyboard collection but turned out to me to be nothing lots of hateful comments from people and I don't want anybody to blame me for copyright law or any beef with keyboard companies wich I'm great friends with Yamaha, Casio, Korg, Roland, Emu, Technics, Steinway, Samick and all the company I know.
So sorry to say there will be no release date for this expansion bundle if unless I have absolute permission from Yamaha saying that I will not be blamed or sued for any copyright laws or wrongdoing for taking samples off of my own keyboard collection that I owned for years
For now I decided I'm just i'm going to keep the samples for myself if I hear from Yamaha seeing yes I can release the free expansion pack or if they would like to collaborate and help me with it then yes I will apply by there rules
Thank you everybody who has supported me with this wild adventure and please understand that once I do projects like these I like to give my talent from the kindness of my heart just to make people happy of whatever I can provide them but if I'm gonna be chastise and put in a spotlight for things that I am not then I take my talent back
I WILL KEEP MY LIBRARY FOR MYSELF!!!!!!
Love you all keep safe
Kris Nicholson 

Its a shame this has happened. but IMO


Yamaha's Proprietary Rights Notice

Owners of Yamaha musical instruments may use Yamaha's preprogrammed sounds (STYLES, VOICES, PERFORMANCES, PATTERNS, ARPEGGIOS, SAMPLE DATA or YAMAHA STYLE DISKS hereinafter collectively referred to as "Programmed Sounds") for their personal musical pleasure. Examples of permissible use include composing musical pieces using such Programmed Sounds and incorporating them in public performances or in recordings, regardless of whether such compositions, performances or recordings are for profit.

THE FOLLOWING EXAMPLES ILLUSTRATE SOME, BUT NOT ALL, PROHIBITED USES WHICH INFRINGE YAMAHA'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS WITH RESPECT TO ITS PROGRAMMED SOUNDS, AND ARE THEREFORE STRICTLY PROHIBITED:

    Making copies of Yamaha's Programmed Sounds and making them commercially available or sharing them over the Internet with third parties.
    Copying pattern data and selling the same as a musical score (paper or digital format) or incorporated in a musical score software program.
    Incorporating any DEMO music in your musical composition, or playing any DEMO music in public performances or recordings.
    Making copies of VOICES incorporated into a sound source of a Yamaha musical instrument and selling the same as a program.
    Copying or distributing, or making available to third parties for their copy or distribution, any Programmed Sounds.

Should you have any questions or concerns regarding authorized or unauthorized uses of Yamaha's Programmed Sounds, please contact your legal counsel for advice. Thank you for your interest in Yamaha products.
Now they grey area is the first para IMO, as we own such instruments are we classed as a third party?In the same club so to speak. So most here are yamaha users, and Kris is using Yamaha sounds.  Kris can do them but not sell them. As for other keyboards I do not know, but I hope he does get permission.

[Bachus]

Kris Nicholson decided not to share his expansion pack unless Yamaha tells him it is OK for him to share:
https://www.facebook.com/kris.nicholson.92

Hi everybody
Sorry to say I decided NOT!!! to release my sound expansion Yamaha Genos 24.01KN
Not only I took the time to do this expansion pack and still correcting lots of the sounds to make them perfect , but also I took the time to read each and every single comments on the web and even my private messaging from sites blasting me for stealing sounds from my own keyboard collection and being a fraud which I'm not.
I am a professional Pianist and synthesist I owned several of my keyboards throughout the years and sampled many of them to combine in one keyboard which I did also with my Roland Fantom X8, Korg Kronos & Korg PA Series now Genos
I am always sampling things almost every day or every chance that I can get I also tell people if you were to walk into my house or enter into my studio you are being recorded because I do sample even Atmospheric, Piano Riffs, Bands, or hook lines even in our conversations Believe me I have plenty wave data
I do have to admit that Some of the sounds BUT NOT ALL !!! were Soundfonts that I took and edit to the max to have the most realistic and I sent to sound true to either the instrument or the mood
What I thought was going to be cool and nice that I can share with people my sounds and samples of most of my keyboard collection but turned out to me to be nothing lots of hateful comments from people and I don't want anybody to blame me for copyright law or any beef with keyboard companies wich I'm great friends with Yamaha, Casio, Korg, Roland, Emu, Technics, Steinway, Samick and all the company I know.
So sorry to say there will be no release date for this expansion bundle if unless I have absolute permission from Yamaha saying that I will not be blamed or sued for any copyright laws or wrongdoing for taking samples off of my own keyboard collection that I owned for years
For now I decided I'm just i'm going to keep the samples for myself if I hear from Yamaha seeing yes I can release the free expansion pack or if they would like to collaborate and help me with it then yes I will apply by there rules
Thank you everybody who has supported me with this wild adventure and please understand that once I do projects like these I like to give my talent from the kindness of my heart just to make people happy of whatever I can provide them but if I'm gonna be chastise and put in a spotlight for things that I am not then I take my talent back
I WILL KEEP MY LIBRARY FOR MYSELF!!!!!!
Love you all keep safe
Kris Nicholson 

Well, looks like some people onhere scared him away..
We all know who..
And i fully support and can understand this designe

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Just sample vst's and you do not have to rely on anyone.
I do not blame Kris as there are too many whistleblowers and scaremongering going on

[edemarfilho]

That sad. This fantastic musician will not be able to share all his work and dedication with us. Greetings. Although I cannot play with its magnificent sounds, I will continue to watch your incredible videos. Thank you...

[tyrosman]

this is sad to Read this forum used to be good and full of information for help with our keyboards now its becoming a bloddy joke Kris was trying to be kind to every one on here by giving us his sounds and he got Slated for it i think this forum should be closed Down un less modurators modurate it. in stead of sitting back and doing nothing

[billtracy]

I am sorry that Kris went though all this nastiness he received on this forum for trying to be kind and trying to do the right thing by seeking permission from people before he went ahead.
The moderators were totally wrong to allow this attack to go on. Not even sure if we have any active ones any more anyway.
In these days of stress it is about time we became kinder to everyone.

Well said!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

They made Kris Kros!!

[panos]

Hi folks,
I have read all the posts above and I didn't see any post that they moderators should take action for.
I did not also see anyone making hateful comments or anything about this nice and skillful pianist on this forum.

Some people just expressed their (strong) opinion that there might be copyright issues with the distribution of sounds and Kris may had troubles in the future.

If this warning made him to change his mind, personally I don't blame anyone.
Maybe is better for people not to have this great library of sounds this way(free of charge or not),
rather than Kris having copyright issues with any of the companies he is referring that he took the samples from and changed them to his liking.

[markstyles]

Hi Chris:  I too am sorry you went thru all the madness..  About 30 years ago, I did a disco version of 'Over the Rainbow'.   I took some of talking dialogue at the beginning of the movie. 
Like a good boycott, I MGM, told them of my version, and wanted permission to use about 15 seconds of Dorothy speaking..  They got real huffy and told me in no uncertain terms, they would come after me, sue me, make sure I never made another record.. 

So I got it released on Disconet, in USA, and Loading Bay records in England,  WITHOUT the dialog.   Another disco remix service Hot Trax I believe, decided to use the version with the dialog.. They, nor I ever heard from MGM..    But around that time a record label got sued $100K for using sound EFX and dialogue from Startrek..  The main difference was that label was big, and could afford to pay the infringement fine..

Sorry your good intentions turned into a nightmare.   

[motekmusic]

HI

Just saw this posting by Kris on youtube with in depth "no go" explanation.   Admire his talent and generosity;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3m8gGBreY&t=286s\


cheers
elaine

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

HI

How on earth is Yamaha going to know that you copied and rearranged their sounds. or data from styles supposedly midi.
Have they got codes inside them??

A sound is a sound , example and instrument.
If you copy dialogue or passages from songs  , then yes it can be traced.
I think there is a lot of scaremongerers out there and do gooders.
The best way to get ahead is to keep things to yourself 
Sadly for Kris is that we are  not living in Utopia yet.