FEELINGS Morris Albert -CHORDS

[casiokid]

I often try to play, by ear, the song 'Feelings' using my own harmony and chords

However when I searched for the recommended chords for this particular song on various sites, on the internet the recommended chords for this song to my ears are awful and I much prefer my own harmony ?

My dilemma is, is my harmony totally wrong for this song?  Do other forum members encounter a similar dilemma in choice of harmony for songs?

I know harmonisation for a song is not 'fixed in stone' but I've always tried to keep to roughly a song's recommended harmony

[panos]

Hi Casiokid,
this one is a pretty popular and wonderful song.
I don't think you need to visit chord sites on this one.
Sheet music sites have a digital piano score of this so you can listen if you like their version or not.

I don't think a composition is divided that "simple" to just melody and chords on a keyboard or right hand-left hand playing to a piano.

Pick up the basic melody of a composition or song.
Try to play that melody with one finger with your right hand.
Now add a second note to that melody with your right hand,later a third note and finally a fourth note so it is still sound correctly but far more "rich".
These are your "chords" and both the melody and the chords belong to a specific musical scale.

Of course when we have to play be ear because we don't find a sheet music (I search also for well made midis)
we just put some chords where we feel right and don't add chords in a every note of the melody but that doesn't mean we are always right in our playing when we just use our ears.
Maybe it could be some better "versions" and maybe someone is hearing and has studied music much better than we do.

The original version is the song itself and as long as I remember there are more instruments are playing so there are more "notes" from all of them to contribute to the final "harmony".

[mikf]

Casiokid
The chording on these web sites is not always great, so it is possible you might have picked some poor versions and that is why you think it doesn't sound great. But if you looked at several and don't like any, the problem may be you. I am afraid that over the years I have experienced many players who think they play well by ear, but actually get the chords wrong all the time. Their ear and knowledge of harmony is just not well enough developed for them to hear what should be happening. In those cases they need to improve their ear by using good chords, and trusting them. Not saying this is the case for you, I haven't heard you play....but I'm not getting the vibe from your post that you are at that advanced level where you hear in your head more the advanced harmony. Because if you were, you wouldn't be asking the question.
You are correct that harmony doesn't have to be cast in stone, in fact the very best musicians frequently use alternative chords, or even completely re-harmonize. This can sound great, especially in jazz. But take care, they can do it well and get great results because they have sophisticated knowledge of harmony and a practiced 'ear'. 
Mike

[casiokid]

Thanks mikf and panos for your insightful helpful comments

What I am also discovering is that some of the written/recommended chords are too thick, dense and muddy sounding for the acpm ?  For instance an Fm7/E flat is better (clearer) rendered harmonically, to my ears, as as A flat/ E flat?  So some changes in some songs is necessary.  This particular song is a case in point and yields a good example of what I mean.  Do any other players simplify the chords for clearer sounding acpm?

[mikf]

Casiokid
The chord substitution you mention in harmony speak is known as a V7 to II substitution, and is the most common chord substitution in music. The two chords are very closely related, and substituting a II for  V7 will nearly always sound good, depending on the overall chord sequence, arrangement etc. In fact many jazz players will almost never use the V7 chord regardless of what is written, always substituting it for a II chord. The main difference between how these two chords sound is going to be the bass note, in your case Ab versus F. But in your case you are actually playing a slash chord with an Eb bass in both, so in my opinion the difference harmonically between these two chords is a gnats eyelash, and I doubt most people would even notice it.
But you are saying it sounds 'muddy'. Not sure why that would happen because when you play a slash chord, the acpmnt driven by the style stays the same only the bass note changing. So if it really does sound muddy that would be more to do with how the accompaniment was written in that style than the chord substitution. Another couple of possibilities is the way you are fingering it, maybe you are getting a different chord than you think. Or if you have a LH voice playing, the sound of those LH notes may be the cause, especially if you use one of the shortcut fingering methods.
Either way, you are right to be driven by what your ear tells you. Unless you are in a music exam, how it sounds is more important than technically correct.
People do often simplify chords for the arranger, but usually because they have difficulty with fingering the more complex chords, rather than the way it sounds.
Mike 

[casiokid]

Casiokid
saying it sounds 'muddy'.

My experience is when the tenor E flat lies directly below the F (3rd inversion) when playing in acpm mode. It also depends of course if a LOWER voice is selected.

Thanks again for all your other valid comments

[mikf]

Not sure I understand. What style and fingering are you using?
Try this, select a simple style like 8 beat. Select 'fingered' mode for the fingering type. Play left hand only, 1st inversion Ab chord, then play 3rd inversion Ab chord. It should sound identical ie absolutely no change. Now change to 'fingered on bass' mode. Play 1st inversion Ab, then 3rd inversion Ab. It should sound the same except that the bass note changes. Now play F minor/Eb ie add the F to the Ab 3rd inversion. The change in sound is so slight it is almost not noticeable because it only adds an F to the fairly quiet background strummed chord. That is generally how little it will change, so not sure what you are hearing.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

[Intro]

Em   Em(maj7)   Em7   A   Am   D7   Gmaj7   B7



[Verse 1]

Em       Em(maj7)                 Em7        A

Feelings,       nothing more than feelings

            Cmaj7    D7              Gmaj7   B7

trying to forget my,      feelings of love

Em        Em(maj7)                Em7       A

Teardrops,        rolling down on my face

            Cmaj7   D7             Gmaj7   B7   E7

trying to forget my,    feelings of love



[Chorus]

C   Am     D7          Bm

Feelings, for my life I'll feel it

E7                Am            D7                Gmaj7   B7   E7

I wish I've never met you girl, you'll never come again

C   Am   D7     Bm

Feelin, wo-o-o feelin

E7     Am      D7          Gmaj7   B7

wo-o-o feelin, again in my arms



Em       Em(maj7)                  Em7            A

Feelings,       feelings like I've never lost you

                        Cmaj7           D7               Gmaj7   B7   E7

and feelings like I've never have you,     again in my heart



[Verse 2]

C   Am     D7          Bm

Feelings, for my life I'll feel it

E7                Am            D7                Gmaj7   B7

I wish I've never met you girl, you'll never come again



[Chorus]

Em       Em(maj7)                  Em7            A

Feelings,       feelings like I've never lost you

                        Cmaj7          D7               Gmaj7   B7   E7

and feelings like I've never have you,     again in my life

C   Am   D7     Bm

Feelin, wo-o-o feelin

E7     Am      D7          Gmaj7   B7   E7

wo-o-o feelin, again in my arms

C   Am

feelin....(répéter et diminuer)

[mikf]

Hi Gary - pretty much the chords (and the key)  I would play this as well. I tend to use an Emin6 rather than the A in the first line, then an Am leading into the D7, rather than the Cmaj7. I would also add an F#min 7 resolving to B7 to lead into the chorus. But essentially much the same.
With your silky vocal over the top of this, who would care about a few chord details anyway
I think we could have been a hell of a team and would love to have played live with you. 
Mike

[casiokid]

Casiokid
In fact many jazz players will almost never use the V7 chord regardless of what is written, always substituting it for a II chord.

From your comments to Gary I see what you mean about chord substitution.  Particularly with chord substitutions raised or dropped by a 3rd

[panos]

But you are saying it sounds 'muddy'. Not sure why that would happen

I think that "AI finger mode" doesn't care much about slash chords.
It has to take care of easy transitions of different midi parts without hearing strange "effects" when any chord is changing.
And of course it is the style it self and how each part of the style behaves to each chord (e.g a guitar strumming or a piano arpeggio have different NTT,NTR,note high-low limits etc)

For example you don't want to constantly "cut" the arpeggio by keep changing chords all the time because a "sophisticated" sheet says so.
Either you will have to change your playing or replace the style part with something else.

Or other things that can make you "miss" some chords is that while in a transition e.g from a Verse to a Chorus you have to choose whether you will hit the fill in,change a Main,change Voices,hit a pad etc or you will play all three(or five) really quick chords to move from a Verse to a Chorus.

Sometimes(not often) we might hear "strange" things happening on Youtube videos that compare preset styles of different brands when they are changing chords.
It is just a little "disorder" of the notes of a style part while moving from one chord to another.
I think Yamaha is doing a great job on this one.

[Toril S]

This is a very useful and interesting topic to me!! I can not read sheet music, so I always have to learn a song by hearing it, and then playing it on the keyboard. Chords can be a challenge. I can hear what sounds good, but many songs have subtle chord changes, often many after one another, and I feel at a loss to reproduce them all. And at other times  I just feel that a chord sound so good that I put it in even if the original song does not have that chord change in it. Musicians do it all the time. I feel that I really need to learn the more sophisticated chords. i use fingered mode, three fingers, that's  it. Never learned to play an arranger, just found out what worked by trial and error. i play accordion, so keyboard was a natural choice in many ways for me.

[Mikk]

If you have recording of this  (on CD) or downloaded from youtube as a mp3,   you can run the music through "Riff station" which can be installed on your computer and while it is playing on "riff station" it is showing all the chords in real time.

While it is playing, if you want to, you can change  the chord structure  to what ever key you want.  when you find the key you like, you will have to use a pen and paper to write them down.

[mikf]

Mike
No need for hime to do this. Gary already supplied the chords, I can assure you that these chords are correct. I played this piece regularly as a pro for years.
Mike

[alanclare]

Mike

Coming down to my level for a moment:

"The chord substitution you mention in harmony speak is known as a V7 to II substitution, and is the most common chord substitution in music. The two chords are very closely related, and substituting a II for  V7 will nearly always sound good, depending on the overall chord sequence, arrangement etc."

Am I to understand you to say that in the key of C major, given a final G7, C ending, I can substitute a Dmin chord for the G7?

Alan

[alanclare]

Mike

It would appear that Riff Station is no longer available:

https://www.riffstation.com/index.html

Goodbye, Riffstation Pro
We are sad to announce that Riffstation Pro (Mac/PC) will no longer be available for download.

We are immensely proud of the success Riffstation has experienced and of the legion of dedicated guitar players it has seen develop along the way. We'd like to thank you for your support over the years. Please stay tuned for an exciting new product.

See you soon,

The Riffstation team

[mikf]

Mike

Coming down to my level for a moment:

"The chord substitution you mention in harmony speak is known as a V7 to II substitution, and is the most common chord substitution in music. The two chords are very closely related, and substituting a II for  V7 will nearly always sound good, depending on the overall chord sequence, arrangement etc."

Am I to understand you to say that in the key of C major, given a final G7, C ending, I can substitute a Dmin chord for the G7?

Alan

Absolutely, just depends on the sound you are trying to get. You  could also play the Dm but still slip in the G7, or even hold the Dm chord but add the G bass ie Dm/G. That's called resolving the harmony.
When it's a cadence ie resolving to a final C chord, you could also play Dm7 - C#maj7 - C. A chromatic slide down and very effective in some songs.
Also often neat to substitute a C9 or Cmaj7 for the final C. Or my own favorite Dm7- G7b9 - Cmaj7 or Cmaj9 a very jazz sounding cadence. You can also  play Dm7- G7b9 - A9. Changing key on the very last note of the song is a musical surprise! Wouldn't use this too often though.
I know that kind of stuff may be a bit beyond many who struggle a bit just trying to get the basic chord changes right. But the mastery of all this harmony can lift your playing to another level. When I play piano in a live setting people often come up and tell me I have great touch. But I can assure you my touch is not that great, what they really hear is my harmony.
It's a complicated subject, and writing about it is a bit dry. So as I sit here I am thinking I might produce a sound recording on use of alternative harmony, chord substitution and extended chords. It all makes more sense when you can hear it, and examples of how to use it etc.
Watch this space!!
Mike

[casiokid]

, or even hold the Dm chord but add the G bass ie Dm/G.
Mike

Dm/G is basically a Gm9.
As an aside do you folks think in terms of  6th chords  say F6 instead of say Dm etc...in whatever key to keep thinking harmonically simple?

[Mikk]

Mike

It would appear that Riff Station is no longer available:

https://www.riffstation.com/index.html

Goodbye, Riffstation Pro
We are sad to announce that Riffstation Pro (Mac/PC) will no longer be available for download.

We are immensely proud of the success Riffstation has experienced and of the legion of dedicated guitar players it has seen develop along the way. We'd like to thank you for your support over the years. Please stay tuned for an exciting new product.

See you soon,

The Riffstation team

That is correct for that particular  page from that site.  if Alan had done a bit more research he would have found  Riffstation Pro is available from many sites as a free program including the Riffstation website..
Here is one example from the same site that Alan looked at.

https://www.riffstation.com/2520674960.html

[mikf]

Dm/G is basically a Gm9.
As an aside do you folks think in terms of  6th chords  say F6 instead of say Dm etc...in whatever key to keep thinking harmonically simple?

Definitely some people simplify the chords so it is easier to play. Its really down to you, and what your objective is. F6 has the same notes as Dmin7 (although not exactly Dmin) but there would be no discord using either The bass note is different though, and that will have an effect on the overall sound.  Its your choice but I would not think that F6 is actually any simpler to play than Dm, and I can't decide what is easier for you.

BTW - Dm/G is not the same as Gm9 because there is a B in the Gm and no C. It might sound OK sometimes when used to substitute for Dmin/G, other times it may produce a discord. Case by case.
Mike

[casiokid]

BTW - Dm/G is not the same as Gm9 because there is a B in the Gm
Mike

Thanks again Mike. On arranger keyboards players will often leave out notes of a chord especially when handling  9ths, 11th & 13ths  But its the third of the chord that determines its character (major vs minor).  Some players might deliberately leave out the third to imply a notion of 'vagueness' which the ear or listeners can make up their minds and resolve harmonically.   How often and when might the 3rd be omitted?  (I realise that using auto-accompaniment will automatically resolve an 'indecisive' chord resolving invariably to a major chord?)

I've learnt a lot from this thread...so thanks again Mike

[SciNote]

Definitely some people simplify the chords so it is easier to play. Its really down to you, and what your objective is. F6 has the same notes as Dmin7 (although not exactly Dmin) but there would be no discord using either The bass note is different though, and that will have an effect on the overall sound.  Its your choice but I would not think that F6 is actually any simpler to play than Dm, and I can't decide what is easier for you.

BTW - Dm/G is not the same as Gm9 because there is a B in the Gm and no C. It might sound OK sometimes when used to substitute for Dmin/G, other times it may produce a discord. Case by case.
Mike

I agree concerning the F6 and Dm7 -- same notes, different bass note, and quite a different mood produced by each chord.  But as for Dm/G and Gm9... There is no C in either of those chords.  Dm is D-F-A (now, if you meant Dm7, then yes, that chord DOES have a C).  The notes D-F-A are the top three notes (in root position) of both a G9 and a Gm9 chord, as the note that differentiates those two chords (G9, Gm9) is not present in Dm/G -- and that is the B or Bb -- If you add a B to Dm/G, you get a G9, but if you instead add a Bb to Dm/G, you get a Gm9.

Also, when Casiokid mentioned substituting an Ab/Eb chord for an Fm7/Eb, you said, "The chord substitution you mention in harmony speak is known as a V7 to II substitution, and is the most common chord substitution in music."  However, if the Fm7 is the V of the scale, then that implies a key of Bb, and therefore, the II would be C (or more precisely, Cm).  Ab would be the b7 of the key of Bb.  But, as both of the chords Casiokid mentioned would have the same Eb bass, and the only difference between Fm7 and Ab is the removal of the F, then that would be a good, subtle substitution.

However, if the Fm7 is really a Bb11 (essentially the same notes, except for having a Bb bass added), then yes, that chord being the V would imply a key of Eb, and then the Ab would be the II of the key. -- EDIT: I goofed!  Ab is the IV of Eb, not the II.  In the key of Eb, the II would just be Fm.  The key where Ab is the II would be Gb, and in that case, the V would be Db.

[mikf]

Bob
You are correct I was thinking of Dm7 and I meant to write Bb not B in the Gm.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

Hi Gary - pretty much the chords (and the key)  I would play this as well. I tend to use an Emin6 rather than the A in the first line, then an Am leading into the D7, rather than the Cmaj7. I would also add an F#min 7 resolving to B7 to lead into the chorus. But essentially much the same.
With your silky vocal over the top of this, who would care about a few chord details anyway
I think we could have been a hell of a team and would love to have played live with you. 
Mike

Mike, it would have been my distinct pleasure to have performed on stage with you. You are a superior player, my friend. The only thing that kept me going was my singing voice, which held up well until asbestosis got my lungs about three years ago. How I miss working on stage in front of a crowded dance floor.

All the best,

Gary

[andyg]

FWIW, I'd probably put more chords in than Travlin has suggested and I think you'd definitely need to go to AI Fingered mode to make it really playable. I learnt it from the music when the song first came out, but as always, I then re-arranged it.

I'd start like this: Em Em(maj7)/D# (E over D will work in AI mode as you've just played the Em), Em7/D, A/C#, Am7, D7, Gmaj7, F#m7b5, B7sus4, B7. Some nice subtle changes in harmony and there's scope for something like C, D7/C, Bm7, E7b9 etc in the chorus.

I'll usually play around with sharpening and flattening notes, seeing if I can create a subtle, but audible, counter melody line.

Much more fun than simply playing the 'dots'!

[mikf]

Much more fun than simply playing the 'dots'!

Absolutely Andy. I nearly always play piano and use the full keyboard setting for this kind of song. Much easier to get all those chords in with two hands than trying to wrap just my LH round them. And it's the way I grew up playing before these keyboards existed.
I love harmony and always look for something a little different. In reality, I don't think too much about the chord names when playing. I find that after all these years my hands just fall into the right places to get the arrangement I hear in my head in real time. But if I were to sit back and write down every change I actually play, it would be similar to your thoughts. Seeing all these changes using altered and extended chords written down can look a bit intimidating to some people though. 
Mike