6-8 or 12-8 Style ?

[Luluc]

Hello all,

In the Genos , we have the preset style called '6-8GuitarBallad'.
When you look inside the file, you can see the style is based on 4-beat bars. So, it would be called '12-8GuitarBallad'

Fox example, in the A variation, the bass duration is a whole note as for a 12-8 time signature.

I guess trhat is an old convention for naming the style...For me, that adds some confusion.

[Fred Smith]

In the Genos , we have the preset style called '6-8GuitarBallad'.
When you look inside the file, you can see the style is based on 4-beat bars. So, it would be called '12-8GuitarBallad'

Fox example, in the A variation, the bass duration is a whole note as for a 12-8 time signature.

I guess trhat is an old convention for naming the style...For me, that adds some confusion.

Yes, 6/8 styles that are actually 4/4 is a "feature" of Yamaha keyboards for as long as I've been using them. I think they do it because most people are more comfortable playing 4/4, and let the style do the syncopation.

For what it's worth, you can create your own proper 6/8 styles, and many people have.

Cheers,
Fred

[Robert van Weersch]

A few weeks ago, someone posted a ZIP with a bunch of 12/8 and 6/8 in 4/4, to real 12/8 and 6/8. Can't find it anymore...


[edit] Found it         https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,46991.msg387918.html#msg369091

[Wim NL]

I have converted the 6/8, 12/8 styles in real 6/8, 12/8

https://app.box.com/s/9os68vkhv5lrog4kk9o4ltc4xmlws2j5

[Luluc]

You are all saying that the '6-8GuitarBallad' style is a fake 6-8 but in real a 12-8 style.

That is a pity that Yamaha still goes on naming 6-8 styles that are real 12-8.

I suppose it has already been reported to Yamaha ?

[Fred Smith]

You are all saying that the '6-8GuitarBallad' style is a fake 6-8 but in real a 12-8 style.

That is a pity that Yamaha still goes on naming 6-8 styles that are real 12-8.

I suppose it has already been reported to Yamaha ?

what's to report? A lot of us are happy using the style, and its name makes it easy to find. And I wouldn't say it's really a 12/8 style either.

Cheers,
Fred

[mikf]

Time signatures might be the most misunderstood thing in music. They are much less definitive than people think. Many 12-8 (doowop feel ) songs are actually written in 4 - 4. When you use a time signature it can have several purposes - eg to make it easier to read/write the music, to tell you something about the feel of the music. When describing a style Yamaha undoubtedly are describing the feel of the style so adopt certain descriptions like 6-8 or 12-8. There is not really a right or wrong here.
Mike

[Janus]

the trick they use triolen
written like --- --- --- --- notes
to get the waltz feel

[Luluc]

Wim NL,

Thanks for the style. You made a good job.

According to theory of the music, a 6-8 time signature means you have two beats in a bar, and a 12-8 time signature means you have 4 beats in bar. And right, both time signatures include triplets.

[Robert van Weersch]

According to theory of the music, a 6-8 time signature means you have two beats in a bar, and a 12-8 time signature means you have 4 beats in bar. And right, both time signatures include triplets.

As far as I know, a x/y beat means you have x beats in a bar, where y is the prevailing time value. A real 6/8 has 6 beats, and a 12/8 has 12 beats.

[voodoo]

As far as I know, a x/y beat means you have x beats in a bar, where y is the prevailing time value. A real 6/8 has 6 beats, and a 12/8 has 12 beats.

But no one would count 12 beats in a bar. As Luluc said, 12/8 is a convention to write notation for a 4/4 beat with triplet feeling (for human reading).

So for a musician it may be easier to read 12/8 over 4/4 with triplets.
But for machine recording, it may be easier to use 4 counts with triplets, because most metronoms (or BPM counters) are made for counting 4th notes.

Uli

[mikf]

Like I said - one of the most misunderstood things in music! 
Many time signatures are actually mathematically interchangeable. I could easily write a piece in either 3 -8 or 6-8. It would be the same piece. The choice is partly convention - for example if it were a jig I would use 6 -8 , because that's what you do! The time signature would transmit something about the feel of the music, not just the note length. And all partly because the notes naturally cluster together in certain ways for easy reading with some time signatures. So I could choose to write a shuffle or doowop piece in 4-4 or 12-8, and both would be correct and could be played correctly. 12 -8 is four beats with 3 notes per beat, as the poster said. But what if I wrote it in 6 -8. Then it could still be technically correct but each 12-8 or 4-4 bar just gets spread over two bars. But I would never do that, because convention would mislead the musician. You don't write shuffles or doowop in 6 - 8, not because you can't - but because you don't.
Mike 

[Robert van Weersch]

I was just talking about the notation 

Apart from that, it would be very practical if the 12/8 and 6/8 styles were real triplet /8 styles, preferrably in 3/8. It would make breaks and transitions at the counts of 4, 7 or 10 a lot easier... I play some songs which use 6/8 or 12/8 but also have the occasional 3/8 bars in it. Now I have to create a custom style, with some fake half-bar fills or have to use the sync start/stop with a pedal, to get in sync with the song.

[mikf]

Yes Robert, I guess that bar length can be a problem with some aspects of a style, like the fill. Some Andrew Lloyd Weber stuff has this issue, but I must admit that I seldom try to be completely technically correct when playing this kind of song, I just stretch the short bar. I think this is seldom noticed by listeners, and much easier than trying to customize the style.
Mike   

[Robert van Weersch]

I've been the keyboard player for some choirs and with them, the original song is always the goal   So I have quite some modified styles to be able to be literally "note perfect" for songs. The 6/8 and 12/8 in 2/4 and 4/4 are, frankly, a pain to modify. WimNL's 6/8 and 12/8 are quite an improvement.

[mikf]

Must admit I see the use of electronic accompaniment (styles) for choirs or congregations as a big risk and would personally avoid it. There is no room for error if they get out of time, so I have always used more conventional piano or organ accompaniment for church playing or choral/community singing. I do notice many people on this forum saying they do this though, so obviously they make it work.
Mike

[Robert van Weersch]

It can work, most definitely! I've done stuff like modern Christmas songs like Merry Christmas Everyone (Shakin' Stevens) but also Nothing Else Matters (Metallica), Africa (Toto) or even Born This Way (Lady Gaga) using both generic and song-specific styles, customized mult-pads etc. You'll need a conductor and keyboard player who can work in tempo sync really tight. The conductor is no longer in control of the tempo, but the keyboard. And when something goes wrong, it is up to the keyboard player to stop/start the song really fast to get in-sync again without the audience noticing. But honestly, we've never had that problem during a performance.

[pjd]

Must admit I see the use of electronic accompaniment (styles) for choirs or congregations as a big risk and would personally avoid it. There is no room for error if they get out of time, so I have always used more conventional piano or organ accompaniment for church playing or choral/community singing. I do notice many people on this forum saying they do this though, so obviously they make it work.
Mike

Reminds of the time when I rehearsed our church group to perform over backing tracks. (Yep, I know that is even more rigid than styles.) I had to work hard to get them to really listen and to understand that "when the bus pulls out, you've got  to be on the bus."

Now these were reasonable experienced singers/musicians. But, seeing their troubles, I can't imagine having an untrained congregation sing along with even style-based accompaniment. Something and everything happens on any given Sunday...

All the best -- pj

[panos]

I have just downloaded Wim's conversions.
The light on the keyboard it does lightening differently and follows the hi hat sound.

The metronome (and the light) is ticking too fast to be able to count anything.
(not that I am always sure that I know what I have to count )
I just follow what I hear from the style parts to get in the....mood.

Is that helping you better to sight read sheet music when the style is playing in 12/8 and not in 4/4?

[Robert van Weersch]

Now these were reasonable experienced singers/musicians. But, seeing their troubles, I can't imagine having an untrained congregation sing along with even style-based accompaniment. Something and everything happens on any given Sunday...

No church choirs (I'm an atheist) but mostly choirs with people over 20 years of singing experience. And quite strict selection critereria when applying to join so the members are really musical and actually can sing. But it is the conductor who has to listen to the style and keep the choir synched. Like I said, never had any problems on stage.

[pjd]

And quite strict selection critereria when applying to join so the members are really musical and actually can sing.

Groups vary, of course. Most parishes have fairly minimal criteria as participation is an important goal. Not much different than many secular community groups, but probably more pressure to allow parishioners to participate.

My spouse just passed an audition for a community choir with fairly stringent criteria. Now it's my turn as I need to seek a new liturgical position on keys. It's hard to keep my chops up while living in a hotel! 

All the best -- pj

[a1gene]

As far as I know, a x/y beat means you have x beats in a bar, where y is the prevailing time value. A real 6/8 has 6 beats, and a 12/8 has 12 beats.

Here's a little bit about time signatures for people who might be confused. The top number of a time signature always refers to the number of notes (or rests) of the type indicated by the bottom number that are needed to fill a complete measure. In other words, a  measure of 12 8 would contain the equivalent of 12 eighth notes or rests, etc. The top number also determines whether the time is simple or compound. If it's evenly divisible by 3 but not 3 itself, it's compound time. If that's not the case, it's simple time, and then the top number also indicates the number of beats in each measure. If the time is compound, that is, a top number of 6, 9, 12, 15, etc., the number of beats in each measure is that top number divided by 3. The "compounding" concept come from subdividing each beat into 3 equal parts and superimposing them onto a system that's basically designed to work in groups of 2. In compound time, a beat is always represented by a dotted note of some type, for instance in 6 4 time, a beat is represented by a dotted half note. The feel of compound time can also be duplicated by using triplets in simple time. Note that after the first division of a beat into 3 in compound time, the next division almost always reverts back to 2, that is in 6 8, the next division of a eighth note is into 2 sixteenth notes.

[mikf]

Piece of music is a collection of notes occurring in a specific sequence and time interval. The problem for a composer is how to transmit this accurately on paper to someone so they can create the sound and feel as he intended. You can write them in one continuous sequence, but this could be hard to read. Over the centuries conventions emerged to make this easier and more convenient. This included separating the music into equal chunks (bars) and things like time signatures. Time signatures really do two things, collect the notes into easier to read anticipated sequences and transmit some information on what the composer intended about the feel of the piece. I could write a piece of music in a variety of time signatures, and a musician could play it accurately and all would sound the same. But they might not be equally easy to read. Or what the musician was used to.
The information from A1gene is all corrrect, but makes music seem like nuclear physics with a right and wrong. In fact, the time signature is more akin to getting a dinner invitation with the words 'dress code , black tie'. Its not an exact description but tells an informed person all they need to know in just two words. It's not really a highly technical thing for most music.
Yes, there are some very advanced situations re time signatures, but most of us will never deal with them.
And if we already know how the piece should sound, time signature becomes pretty unimportant because the whole point of the written music is to convey how it should sound when you don't know.
Mike