Genos 1.4 - Thank you Yamaha

[Pianoman]

Hello PJ.

I get your point, especially with you being someone who has worked in the industry
and knows the nitty gritty of what it takes to be in an engineering department.

Sadly some others do not approach this subject from the same position as yours.
I sometimes get upset when people throw logic out of the window.

I always highly appreciate your input.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Dromeus]

sometimes to the detriment of their personal lives.

Excuse me for being OT, Paul, but I met some colleagues acting like this and - in the long run - affecting seriously their health and/or family relations. They don't need thanks, but help, preferably professional. Just my 2 ct.

[beykock]

GENOS

12 POINTS, right ?


Babette

[EileenL]

Yes for me I will agree with that.

I must add that I don't see any mention of corporations being thanked. I for one am expressing my thanks to all that help us when it is needed and do it in a very kind way at Yamaha. They are people like we are. A little appreciation dose not cost anything.
  Don't forget that when most people retire now days they have a little money to spare and want to take up music again or have a new hobby. What better than a Genos.

[Pianoman]

I must add that I don't see any mention of corporations being thanked.

I respectfully disagree.

Yamaha IS a corporation, and the title of this thread IS "Thank you Yamaha."
And the conversation here does suggest that we should thank that corporation for
whatever crumbs that have been thrown our way.

Why do we have to prostrate ourselves before a corporation and say thank you?
It is not normal.

We owe them nothing. It is we, the customers who have reached deep into our pockets
who deserve to be thanked, by the Yamaha Corporation.

It has been said that Yamaha read this forum regularly.
It would be very kind of them and appropriate if they were to post a big thank you to all
of us here who buy their products.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[soundphase]

Thank you Yamaha 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXnt_URhDYc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRuDLuWYAQQ

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Thank you Yamaha 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXnt_URhDYc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRuDLuWYAQQ

Man, you gotta' love Aki! I've followed her for some time.

[EileenL]

Hi Abby,
  Why is it you only quote the part of my posts that suit you to have a go at and not the whole concept.

[Pianoman]

Like most people here, I quote the parts of a post that I conclude are either inaccurate,
or are debatable.

For example, from the extensive argument that I wrote 5 or 6 posts above, the response
you wrote mentioned primarily my suggestion that we should maybe also thank those who
make our speakers, toasters, other household appliances etc.

That suggestion was of course a bit tongue in cheek.

The important points I was trying to make, were conveniently left out, thus reducing
the context of my argument.

Quoting that post in it's entirety would have been more helpful and would have presented
a clearer picture of what I was trying to say.

Other than that, sometimes it's just because of a lack of time, so one quickly responds
to a part they find inaccurate then run off to do something else.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[beykock]

Like in politics we have to accept people might have different opinions.
Sometimes these differences cannot be solved ... but we have to respect them and move on, I guess.

Keep smiling !😁

Babette

[Pianoman]

Hello Babette.

Hear, Hear.

Best Regards.
Abby.


The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question
without debating it.

Joseph Joubert.
French Writer 1754 - 1824.

[pjd]

I sometimes get upset when people throw logic out of the window.

Hi Abby -- I get your point, too. Logically, I don't know what it means to thank a corporate entity?  Does one use a legal document? 

Excuse me for being OT, Paul, but I met some colleagues acting like this and - in the long run - affecting seriously their health and/or family relations. They don't need thanks, but help, preferably professional. Just my 2 ct.

Hi Michael -- I was one of those people and my health suffered. The details are unimportant, but getting wheel out of the office on a stretcher changed my long-term perspective.  USA tech culture can be rather intense. Dan Lyons' book "Lab Rats" sums it up pretty well.

All the best to everyone -- pj

[soundphase]

Hi Abby -- I get your point, too. Logically, I don't know what it means to thank a corporate entity?  Does one use a legal document? 

I think naive praises and continuous attacks are boring for a lot of Psr tutorial members.

Yamaha's resources are not extensive, programming such real-time operating system is difficult, and Yamaha's strategy is clear. For me, if they really wanted their flagship includes awaited high-level features, they would have added them when they reprogrammed the OS for the Genos.
Even without these features, a lot of Genos are sold, the number of youtube videos is huge, and most of us are happy with the Genos. A successful strategy.

For 45 years I have looked at electones and arrangers, each time a new major engine is launched, it's for me a real source of pleasure as it can be when I listen to professional players like Abby. Even if they are both paid for this, it's not a problem for me to thank them for the pleasure they provide.

Soundphase

[Pianoman]

This is off topic but I miss the EQ and Compressor controls of the Tyros 3 which probably were
also the same for the T4 and T5.

They were simpler and actually easier to obtain a good sound.

Especially the Compressor.
I think that it's the thing that bothers me the most from the 2 things that I mentioned above.

I've always considered myself savvy about the Compressor and had tuned it to
perfection on my T3.

The T3 compressor added a beautiful richness to the overall sound quality and I find
it quite difficult to obtain that richness on the Genos.

Try as I may, I don't hear any audible difference in sound with the Genos compressor,
apart from the rasing or lowering of the general style volume and the strangling of RH
voices. In my opinion it doesn't do much really.

Most times it feels like riding a wild untamable horse when playing on the Genos.

As far as the EQ is concerned, I've been struggling with the settings since February this
year and continue to do so, in search of 1 satisfactory setting that I like and can keep.
I am so far still unsuccessful.

I've tried all the settings suggested here, from Lee, EQ Gold, Norman Fernandez etc.
Lee's settings were the closest to the sound I'm looking for, but I've also been struggling with
them to remove the mid range harshness.

I find that I spend a significant amount of time on these two things during my gigs,
aside from the myriad other things that I have to do with the keyboard with every
song.

I wish that for once someone here will offer a frank and honest opinion about these 2
things, especially the Compressor.

Any suggestions anyone?

[beykock]

Hi Abby :

Did you contact Yamaha and have you explained them
your problems and how they must be solved ?

If not, it might be very useful to contact them directly.

I am sure they are happy to help you out.

Good luck !
Babette

[EileenL]

Most people I know that gig using other mixers and speakers nearly always run there keyboard EQ's on flat They then adjust on the separate mixer when they run there sound checks at the venue. This seems to be the preferred method by many.
  They also use a different set up when playing at home with just the keyboard. I used to do the same.

[Pianoman]

Thanks for the responses Eileen and Babette.
Yes, I do keep my mixer on flat or unity as they sometimes call it.

It is actually the compressor that bothers me the most though.
Tyroses gave one more settings possibilities for fine tuning it.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[panos]

Abby the compressor is for balancing the dynamics between the sounds.
Let's say that in a band the bass player and the drum player both are playing louder than it should be then the compressor just "cut's" the high volumes.
On a pc I would prefer a normalize function than a compressor but anyway...

In style parts, right and left hand voices etc, we choose while we save the style and the OTS or the registration each one off them how loud it will play.
I don't see why a compressor should change our settings presuming that we don't exaggerate with the sound volumes and we can trust our ears.
We play the song,we test all voices to see that they sound good and then we save the settings.We can even record our playing and sit comfortably and relaxed and listen to it, to see how it sounds.

I also never liked mid range frequencies much on any EQ setting(even if it is my car's audio system) so I always keep them slightly lower.
Especially for my keyboard where there is no singer but just organs.
And always preferred the "V" shape equalizer or kind of an "M" shape.
I can see people using other kinds of EQ settngs.
OK it's a matter of taste probably?
Not mine for sure.
I prefer instead of altering the high EQ or the Bass EQ too much, to add effects like EQ high and EQ low, brightness and harmonic content to all sounds,
That means to each style part and to all right & left hand voices individually and not relying that I will change the master EQ and suddenly everything will sound e.g "brighter".
To my opinion no.
There will be several annoying and disturbing sounds with the new settings.

The problem of the sound with the different venues or if it sounds good on other systems,or on Youtube etc. it's another matter.
First we must make sure that the sounds from our keyboard itself are coming out as we want them to be.

Hope you will find the sound that you like soon.

[beykock]

Hello Abby :

I have the impression ( maybe I am wrong ? ) the Genos is not your favourite arranger keyboard.😒

You explained here why you were " forced " to buy a Genos.

Perhaps you like the Tyros much more, am I right or wrong ?

It is up to you ( nobody else ! ) to make the right decision, I guess.

Good luck !
Babette

[soryt]

the compressor on the Genos is the worst ever , youre right it isnt real effective .

Maybe Yamaha wil come with a real update next time 

Soryt 

[EileenL]

Even though it may not have been a first choice I don't think anyone would want to go back to a Tyros from Genos after having it for a while.

[pjd]

It is actually the compressor that bothers me the most though.

Hi Abby --

This is the sort of question/issue that I like to deep dive, but unfortunately, I'm short on time and my gear is packed up to move.

In Genos, Yamaha changed the master compressor to a parallel compressor. This is the same parallel compression algorithm as Montage/MODX. My ultimate take on parallel compression is that it is used mainly for final mastering. By itself, it's not much of an "effect" like a classical compressor as used in Tyros 3 or elsewhere.

Many people expect the Genos master compressor to really pump the music like a classical compressor. They may walk away disappointed. Parallel compression is subtle, not a hammer.

Wikipedia has a decent article about parallel compression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

So, I'm left wondering about a possible work-around. Maybe assign a classical compression algorithm to the variation effect and use the variation effect in System mode to apply classical compression to all parts. This might achieve the same effect as the T3 master compressor.

Wish I could be more help, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to investigate this. Shucks, I don't know where I will be living 3 weeks from now. 

All the best -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Earlier, Abby said...

I find that learning anything just before going to sleep helps better in memorizing what you've learned.

That has been proven medically. Good for you, Abby! You discovered this on your own - it's true - it does work.

[Pianoman]

Earlier, Abby said... That has been proven medically. Good for you, Abby! You discovered this on your own - it's true - it does work.

Yes Lee, it works for me.

A few years ago I realized that I remember complex harmonies better
when practising at night before going to bed. Especially lyrics and vocals.

So I normally practice a couple of hours during the day, let the music soak in,
then do another 2 hours at night.

I then immediately switch off and head straight to bed. No TV or reading, just
straight to sleep.

What do you think about PJs explanation concerning the
Genos compressor ?

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Pianoman]

Hi Abby --

This is the sort of question/issue that I like to deep dive, but unfortunately, I'm short on time and my gear is packed up to move.

In Genos, Yamaha changed the master compressor to a parallel compressor. This is the same parallel compression algorithm as Montage/MODX. My ultimate take on parallel compression is that it is used mainly for final mastering. By itself, it's not much of an "effect" like a classical compressor as used in Tyros 3 or elsewhere.

Many people expect the Genos master compressor to really pump the music like a classical compressor. They may walk away disappointed. Parallel compression is subtle, not a hammer.

Wikipedia has a decent article about parallel compression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

So, I'm left wondering about a possible work-around. Maybe assign a classical compression algorithm to the variation effect and use the variation effect in System mode to apply classical compression to all parts. This might achieve the same effect as the T3 master compressor.

Wish I could be more help, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to investigate this. Shucks, I don't know where I will be living 3 weeks from now. 

All the best -- pj

Hello PJ.

Thank you very much for your explanation.

It has made things more clear, and has confirmed what I have been thinking
all this time.

I've always thought that the Tyros series had a better compressor worthy of being called
a compressor, and that actually gave you good and useful compression.

I use the Genos live in front of an audience 6 nights a week and can testify to the fact
that the compressor is pretty useless.

It may be good for other uses and users, but you don't want uncontrollable sound when
playing in front of an audience.

The Tyros compressor actually made a big difference, made the sound richer,
and held all the ACMP parts together very nicely.

This compressor does nothing of the sort.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[beykock]

Hi Abby :

Why not inform Yamaha directly ?📌

Best regards, Babette

[emmaco]

the compressor on the Genos is the worst ever , youre right it isnt real effective .

Genos's effects are from the rivage mixer series... more than 3500 $ each (the cheapest...).
Are you sure to use them properly ?... compressors are complicated to use...

[Pianoman]

Hello Emmaco.

It's not about it's origins. What matters to the user is whether it works or it doesn't.
The explanation that PJ provided is more useful and makes more sense.

Pray show us the right way of using this compressor.

I for one am quite familiar with a compressor and have also assisted a sound engineer
for a year in a recording studio in Belgium, where I worked as a session musician.

This particular compressor does not provide one with many fine tuning options.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[beykock]

Strange ... nobody else is really complaining about the quality of this Genos compressor, am I right ?👂

Different use and/or application maybe ? 🎈

Babette

[beykock]

Hi Abby :

Very interesting to hear you have been working in a Belgian pro recording studio in the past.👋

In which recording studio('s) were you active there ?
A long time ago ?

Babette