How to insert Effect in Style Creator ?

marcodg · July 05, 2019, 12:31:43 AM

Hi
Please could someone tell me how i can insert effect like portamento, reverb Pan aso,in style creation on Genos ?
I want to insert effect on Bass part. Portamento or Glissando.
Thanks.
Kind regards

valimaties · July 05, 2019, 04:15:08 AM

These are not Effects, there are Controls... I don't remember Portamento Control to work in Style Creator! Portamento control should be enabled in voice edit. But I remember you cannot use User voices, but only expansion user voice. So you have to edit your voice in YEM to be able to use it in Style Creator.
If I'm wrong, I apologize, I am not right now near my keyboard, I'm at work, and I remember I've tried sometimes something similar , with legato parameter...

Regards,
Vali

jwyvern · July 05, 2019, 04:27:04 AM

Marco,
After selecting the Style Variation you want in Style Creator go to the Style tab1 in Mixer. There at the left you will see selections for various effects and controls including Pan and System Reverb sends. (If you want to insert a special DSP reverb directly to a part go to Effect to select it). The possibilities are somewhat limited compared with edits you can do with panel voices and I don't believe you will be able to create true portamento in a style part. Maybe you could assign a wah insertion DSP but it may not produce the same effect you are seeking.
Exit back to Style Creator to save (or select another Variation if more editing to do).
John

marcodg · July 05, 2019, 06:21:14 AM

Thanks for your reply. But what i mean is to insert a slide effect on two note. I saw long time ago on youtube someone did it with Panorama but i cannot remember where i saw it. So you go in style creator and insert one effect as exaple "Panorama" and give the value from left to right. when i look on event in style creator i can filter with "portamento time" or expression, panorama. So i want to know if i can insert this in step recording or if i must use a pedal to command it? Is the pedal control allowed in style creator ?
thanks you

DerekA · July 05, 2019, 06:42:21 AM

On the step editor, try inserting a Control Change event of type 5 (portamento time) with a big number just before the note you want to slide to, then set it back again afterwards.

(I'm not at the keyboard so don't know if this will work or not - give it a shot though!)

marcodg · July 05, 2019, 09:55:42 AM

Quote from: DerekA on July 05, 2019, 06:42:21 AM
On the step editor, try inserting a Control Change event of type 5 (portamento time) with a big number just before the note you want to slide to, then set it back again afterwards.

(I'm not at the keyboard so don't know if this will work or not - give it a shot though!)

Thanks a lot Derek. It s exactly what i searched. But the control change that i have there is not Ctrl change type 5 portamento time.
I just habe something with 84 and it is portamento control. Where can i get this one ?

DerekA · July 05, 2019, 10:09:17 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by "where can I get this one" - you can freely insert Control Change events of any type anywhere that you want.

valimaties · July 05, 2019, 10:56:55 AM

I'm sorry to tell this, but...
Yamaha's Style Creator is the most weak Style producer in the world of arrangers. You can create limitted styles or assembly parts of styles from keyboard or custom ones, but when it comes ADVANCED SETUP, it's very weak. (I speak most of keyboard style creator, not about PC software)

It accept the less number of controls in style. Important Controls Change (CC) like sustain, portamento, sostenuto, cannot be played by Yamaha Style engine. Even if you insert it there, and BTW you can play from software like StyleMagicYA thru midi cable, when you put the style in keyboard, it does not play anymore with those controls...
Very bad approach! (I told it some months ago: we are not so clever like Yamaha's engineers

)

I must confess that might be a door with Sy*** codes, to open some hidden controls, but I don't know why they don't let this opened FULL for all users

BTW, accepted CC are:
0 - Bank MSB
1 - Modulation
10 - Pan
11 - Expression
32 - Bank LSB
71 - Resonance
74 - Cutoff
80 - Ctrl 80
81 - Ctrl 81
82 - Ctrl 82
84 - Portamento Ctrl (Attention this is not Portamento Time, which is 5)
91 - Reverb Send
93 - Chorus Send
94 - Variation Send

So, Derek, even if you insert controls those are not read by Style engine

Regards,
Vali

panos · July 05, 2019, 11:38:01 AM

Sorry for asking this Vali although I don't own a Genos but I am confused.
We can insert effects in style's creator edit tab and they will work but those effects are limited comparing to other "machines".E.g we can insert just one DSP effect per style part.Is that what you mean?

Can Marcodg add the effect that he wants or not?
Is it called modulation? is it called portamento? and what CC number he should add
( CC:5?? ),
or the effect that he wants cannot be inserted in style creator at all?

DerekA · July 05, 2019, 01:33:59 PM

Panos - although marcodg started off talking about 'effects' he did not mean DSP, he meant changes to the sound which occur by applying MIDI control change messages.

So reading Vali's reply. it seems that the style engine supports some control change messages but unfortunately not the one that marcodg wanted.

panos · July 05, 2019, 02:14:50 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU2EciADd8o

I can see what Vali means now.
If marcodg slows down radically the tempo,press the Rec button for the bass channel and use the pitch bend wheel won't help for the "slide"?
No need to record the notes again.
Just to add the control change as long as Vali said that this is not consider an effect but a control change.

Or maybe moving the harmonic content effect (or maybe also brightness) e.g from -40 to +40.

For glissando maybe using a bass which the modulation wheel has an effect on it that we can hear?
Again by slowing the tempo and pressing the Rec button.

I wonder,aren't there any Yamaha parts that use these control changes so someone can check and see what and how they were written in the edit tab?

valimaties · July 06, 2019, 04:01:46 AM

Again... Portamento time is NOT an effect, it is a Control Change!
Portamento time is a control which can be assign to a voice, by editing the voice, set it Mono/Poly to Mono and change the portamento time to which value is needed for you. You cannot add Portamento Time Control in Style Creator as a Control on a channel.
So, to solve this situation:

Open Yamaha Expansion Manager
Create a new Custom Genos Normal Voice in your pack.
Double click new voice to open editor
Select Common in upper left corner
Set Mono/Poly to Mono
Set Portamento time value
Use Legato if you want Legato function on your voice (for some voices it sounds more real)
Save your work
Install your pack into Genos.
Use your new voice from the expansion into your Bass channel in your style.

Cheers

marcodg · July 06, 2019, 04:29:31 AM

Thanks you all for your replies. I expressed myself wrong in first time. vali is right. What i want is not an effect but a Slide with i can do with Pitch Bend.
I try now to understand how it work. What means the ´value between -8000 to 8000 ? Octave ? Notes ?
And where can i change or give the pitch time and the note i want to fall on ?
Thanks you

jwyvern · July 06, 2019, 04:38:54 AM

Vali, normally, to get a style to respond to a Yem edit you have to carry out the edit at element level. For example to change the octave you would alter the note shift of the individual elements and the style should recognise that. You will find carrying out edits in the Common section gets the same result as using Voice Set outside of YEM ie. ignored by styles. But I have not in the past tried editing Portamento into a YEM voice so cannot speak for it. Would be interested to know if it does work in a style

John

panos · July 06, 2019, 06:05:02 AM

Ok I think I know for the time being what portamento is.I am pretty sure that I will forget it again in a while."Pitch bend" I see it on my keyboard so it is easier to remember

The time of portamento isn't the time you move the pitch bend from a position A to a position B?
If Mardog tries to do that with the pitch bend I think he may be able to succeed it after some rehearses using the Rec mode?
If the example below is portamento or portamento time or that what our friend is trying to do then, even if you cannot perfectly succeed of doing this while recording,you can still go to edit menu and change the values there.
Are there so many notes that needed a pitch bend in the bass channel?
If all bars contain the same pattern then all you have to do is succeed it for just one bar and copy-paste this bar to the rest bars.

Sorry again for asking too many questions.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jmf_7un7oQfV8Dq_5V5xDE8MRgXpcyts

the style with just the bass channel.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KgAWwh7sYvnOVA5UVT_AKbQob8n5b4gK

valimaties · July 06, 2019, 06:31:00 AM

Quote from: panos on July 06, 2019, 06:05:02 AM
Ok I think I know for the time being what portamento is.I am pretty sure that I will forget it again in a while."Pitch bend" I see it on my keyboard so it is easier to remember

The time of portamento isn't the time you move the pitch bend from a position A to a position B?
If Mardog tries to do that with the pitch bend I think he may be able to succeed it after some rehearses using the Rec mode?
If the example below is portamento or portamento time or that what our friend is trying to do then, even if you cannot perfectly succeed of doing this while recording,you can still go to edit menu and change the values there.
Are there so many notes that needed a pitch bend in the bass channel?
If all bars contain the same pattern then all you have to do is succeed it for just one bar and copy-paste this bar to the rest bars.

Sorry again for asking too many questions.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jmf_7un7oQfV8Dq_5V5xDE8MRgXpcyts

the style with just the bass channel.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KgAWwh7sYvnOVA5UVT_AKbQob8n5b4gK

Your example, in my opinion is not a portamento.

BTW, I made a test right now, and John has right. Portamento time is not see by Style Creator, so... you cannot do it using Portamento Time control with voice made in YEM. Ohhhhh, Yamaha, Yamaha.....

Dromeus · July 06, 2019, 06:38:08 AM

Quote from: valimaties on July 06, 2019, 04:01:46 AM
You cannot add Portamento Time Control in Style Creator as a Control on a channel.
So, to solve this situation:
Open Yamaha Expansion Manager
...

Sorry to disappoint you, but this doesn't work either. (edit: just saw that Vali did recognize this in his post above). Portamento is generally banned in style creator and therefore may not be used in styles. I think, there is a reason for this. When using portamento you set the portamento time, which is the rate at which portamento slides the pitch between two notes. Now, a style follows the tempo. When changing tempo it would be necessary to adjust the portamento time accordingly. Otherwise you'd get a very different effect which is not what you want. Makes sense to me.

Bottom line: if you need slides in a style, use pitch bend.

panos · July 06, 2019, 07:17:14 AM

I don't know Vali.
If it is not a portamento but something else,the guy with the violin on the video told me that the slide is a portamento.It is his fault

It is a bass organ.
How much time a bass player can sustain and bend a note with his finger to do the slide to be more obvious? I don't know...
Anyway,I used the pitch bend to the already preset existing notes that were on the bass channel.
And I 've got these numbers in "style creator's" language which can be changed if you wish for more accurate results.
For electronic music you could add some brightness and harmonic content along with panpot and different volumes and got a more strange sound effect.

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valimaties · July 06, 2019, 07:37:46 AM

Quote from: Dromeus on July 06, 2019, 06:38:08 AM
Sorry to disappoint you, but this doesn't work either. (edit: just saw that Vali did recognize this in his post above). Portamento is generally banned in style creator and therefore may not be used in styles. I think, there is a reason for this. When using portamento you set the portamento time, which is the rate at which portamento slides the pitch between two notes. Now, a style follows the tempo. When changing tempo it would be necessary to adjust the portamento time accordingly. Otherwise you'd get a very different effect which is not what you want. Makes sense to me.

Bottom line: if you need slides in a style, use pitch bend.

Yes Dromeus, I've saw, as you see in my earlier post, I've test it!
Depends on how do you use mute notes in style's channel, you can make portamento sounds good (if this control have been working), but as I said depends...
Yes, Pitch bend is the last option, and you have to set the pitch bend range higher than 2 semitones.

Quote from: panos on July 06, 2019, 07:17:14 AM
...the guy with the violin on the video told me that the slide is a portamento.It is his fault
..

I don't know what video, what violin?!?!?!

Best Regards,
Vali

Dromeus · July 06, 2019, 08:07:24 AM

Quote from: valimaties on July 06, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
Yes, Pitch bend is the last option, and you have to set the pitch bend range higher than 2 semitones.

Which means that the slide is limited to four octaves (pitch bend range -24 ... +24 semitones). Portamento does not have such a limitation.

BTW: Genos Voice Edit does limit you to -12 ... +12 semitones

. This is ridiculous. Another example where the Genos designers fail in contrast to their colleagues of the synth department. My MODX does not only offer a -24 ... +24 range for the pitch wheel, but you can also set pitch bend down to a different value than pitch bend up.

jwyvern · July 06, 2019, 08:32:55 AM

When the style plays does it actually respond to (and play) pitch bend data, or does the style engine conform to a cut down "Midi Lite" since it seems to ignore many controls anyway regardless of whether they could interfere with timing or not?
John

Dromeus · July 06, 2019, 09:11:49 AM

Quote from: jwyvern on July 06, 2019, 08:32:55 AM
When the style plays does it actually respond to (and play) pitch bend data

Yes. Timing is correct, the pitch bend events just get fired quicker or slower accord to the tempo.

panos · July 06, 2019, 10:52:17 AM

ok seems I 've got it all wrong.
I see that you are talking about octaves and lot's of semitones.
If this glissando or portamento it is something that evolves more than one note then I guess maybe the notes in the black and white keys should be played in the first place and after you should add the effects or the pitch bend or the modulation to the note or notes you that you want.
Sorry for bothering you guys