I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....

[stephenm52]

Of course, as we are on a Yamaha Forum ... 
Same Question on a Korg Forum - different outcome 
Eric

[beykock]

Hi Eric :

I like your sense of humor.👍😃

But what I wanted to say :

I have the impression, based on the comments I have read, most people prefer the Genos.

Maybe, after the June 28, 2019 Genos update, it might be possible this high end arranger will become more popular than ever before, who knows ? Time will tell.

Up to now nobody knows ( yet ) when the PA5X will be available and/or what it will bring.

Best wishes, Babette

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

John I'm sure you will love it... I could not be without Sonarworks now if i tried... don't forget you can make profiles for you Focals and yamaha speakers but of course you Focals are the important ones  https://www.gearnews.com/sonarworks-reference-4-3-update-adds-dark-mode-usability-improvements/

Hi Tommy

I have taken your advice eventually and paid the £180 extra.
I have got the dreaded square room and now two Foam panels on stands behind me. Wooden slatted 45 degree blinds for window and panel opposite site on wall.
When not doing a mix i can take the foam panels on stands down and put them in the corner for more space.  Sound on Sound advised all of that.
I will have to have a look at the site , but have not seen the write up yet.
Once setup  and measured i hope life will become easier on that final mix.
Right now not happy as I had double tooth out and a week of naggling pain. Getting better now. Any more steak crunchers that go will mean implants. Something to look forward to in my 70s

All the Best
john

[EileenL]

First and foremost I think as this is a Yamaha forum most people will join because they are Yamaha owners and really enjoy using there products. Korg owners will join a Korg forum. I don't see the point of long threads comparing the two as people make there minds up when they purchase them. There first port of call if unsure is of course a shop where they can try them for themselves and have a good comparison first hand. Forum's will not do this. They are designed to help you get the best from your keyboard when you have it. 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I think in my opinion only that comparisons are a good thing and communication between fellow musicians only adds to knowledge.
I firmly stand behind the Genos but also like to hear about peoples views being Genos or whatever.
oh well i'm off on my Yamaha 650!!  

[beykock]

IMHO not so many people  are lucky to test, try and/or compare their arranger keyboard in a music shop before they buy.

Nowadays most customers order from internet sellers, pay and after receipt of their keyboard they are allowed to send it back within 30 or 60 days, free of charge.

After return of her/his arranger the buyer receives his full payment back ( from the internet seller ).

However the buyer is obliged to gather all information from a forum, from friends or other internet sources, I guess.



Babette

[Tankdave]

Great thread this one 

[stephenm52]

IMHO not so many people  are lucky to test, try and/or compare their arranger keyboard in a music shop before they buy.

Babette

This is true.  I have to say I've been lucky I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased.  I know of at least one other forum member who lives within driving distance too of Frank's store.

[Bachus]

This is true.  I have to say I've been lucky I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased.  I know of at least one other forum member who lives within driving distance too of Frank's store.

Trying before buying an arranger is for most here in Western Europe not a problem..

[travlin-easy]

For me, it is a drive of about 4 hours round-trip in the world's most congested traffic to Washington Music in Rockville, Maryland, a store that has been around forever and carries all the high end arranger keyboards in the Keys Section of their store. While they charge full retail for everything, their service is incredible, they have an excellent return policy and you get to try before you buy. I got my hands on the Genos there and played for about two hours, then drove home after deciding not to buy because I no longer am performing on stage and really didn't need it.

As I stated in your other post, no one is going to bash you for purchasing a PA4X - and if they did, they would have me to deal with.

Cheers,

Gary :cool:

[Pianoman]

First and foremost I think as this is a Yamaha forum most people will join because they are Yamaha owners and really enjoy using there products. Korg owners will join a Korg forum. I don't see the point of long threads comparing the two as people make there minds up when they purchase them.

I have been following this subject with interest for a while.
We have a Genos owner who bought a Korg PA4X and has kindly decided to share his
experience of both keyboards on this forum, pointing out the strengths and weaknesses
of both keyboards.


This can only be a good thing, as it may make both manufacturers take note and
add or correct some features in their future products.

I find it unhealthy to suppress comparisons as these comparisons are educative
and will only benefit the end users, us.

The claim that " they are Yamaha owners and really enjoy using their products "
is debatable.
It may apply to some users but perhaps not all.

I for one am not much of a Fanboy and have pointed out several times the things that
I found lacking, or wished that Yamaha hadn't changed.

For example, this being summer, I perform outdoors a lot, and the inability to
tilt the screen of the Genos is quite a problem as I'm playing practically blind or have to
constantly get up and peer at the screen from up close, to check registrations, EQ, Filters,
Compression, Accompaniment volume, Keyboard volume etc.

And this is only one of a few other issues that for some may be important to
discuss.

Reading this Genos section over the last year or so has revealed that many users have
different issues with their instrument.

Hopefully the upcoming update will resolve some of those issues.

Discussions and comparisons are healthy and should not be discouraged, in my opinion.

Best Regards,
Abby.

[Lee Batchelor]

Abby is 100 percent correct. There are two basic keyboard users - home and gigging. The home user is in full control, and if he or she needs to stop and re-assess how to approach a problem, they simply do it. Gigging musicians must learn to anticipate every challenge they will neet on the stage. I am one of those gigging musicians and find that I can only anticipate perhaps 80 percent of what's going to happen. The rest is left to chance.

This is where a comparison between the two keyboards is valid. Overall, I think the sounds of the Genos are superior. The piano sounds have more body on the Korg, from what I can hear over my computer speakers. If the Korg offers better control at a gig, then it's the keyboard of choice. If the Genos does, then it's the superior choice. Much of this choice depends on what material you're playing, how long, and what adjustments must be made during the gig.

If Yamaha swims in this forum on occasion, then some healthy feedback about the Genos is completely valid. There's always room for improvement.

[stephenm52]

This is where a comparison between the two keyboards is valid. Overall, I think the sounds of the Genos are superior. The piano sounds have more body on the Korg, from what I can hear over my computer speakers. If the Korg offers better control at a gig, then it's the keyboard of choice. If the Genos does, then it's the superior choice. Much of this choice depends on what material you're playing, how long, and what adjustments must be made during the gig.

You're right on with the body of piano sounds on the Korg, it just doesn't sound that way thru your computer speakers.   I'd never want to use either the Korg or Genos if I were playing a complete piano solo gig somewhere. Throwing in a couple of piano solos during a gig is one thing but not for an hour or 2 gig.   When I sit at either Korg or Genos at home or on a gig, I'm always amazed at what I hear.

[beykock]

Hi Abby,

I think you are right the Genos is missing the "tiltable screen" especially for those who are obliged to play outside.😯

I have seen some people found solutions to cover this problem. See other threads.

This feature might be available when Yamaha will launch the Genos2. Time will tell.

Hopefully the update of June 2019 will be very useful for your own applications.

Of course it is allowed here to compare the Genos and the PA4X. Why not ?

IMHO every player wants/needs to know the differences to be able to make the right decission before buying.
Finally the buyer is the only decision maker and all of us are respecting his personal choice, I guess.

But ... I believe for most of these forum members ( like me and you ) Yamaha will always be their # 1 and their favourite arranger keyboard.

Some members of this forum are owning both arrangers.

All of these owners like them both and explain us why.
Very interesting comments, IMO.

None of them are forcing to convince people to go for one or the other or both.

In my perception these guys are simply sharing here their observations and experiences and obviously they love them both.

Wished I could follow their footsteps though.😺

Best wishes, Babette

[Pianoman]

Hi Abby,

Some members of this forum are owning both arrangers.

All of these owners like them both and explain us why.
Very interesting comments, IMO.

None of them are forcing to convince people to go for one or the other or both.

In my perception these guys are simply sharing here their observations and experiences and obviously they love them both.

Wished I could follow their footsteps though.😺

Best wishes, Babette

Me too Babette.

To be honest I am quite tempted to buy a Pa4x myself, to have both the Genos and Korg
after having read this review, but can't really afford to right now.

Having just forked out a substantial amount of money, I need to be careful for a while.
There is family business and other things that also need my attention.

For a gigging musician (and each musician has different needs) it is more than just buying
an instrument.
There are things like renewing or replacing many things related to gigs, civil responsibility
insurance, promotional material, fuel, vehicle wear and tear, clothes etc.

I find myself spending up to 1200 Euros every year on clothes and shoes related to gigs.
Unfortunately for me, I love elegant shoes and suits.

Best Regards,
Abby.

[Tommy 73]

Interesting thread... although I am not a Genos owner at the moment I am still following the lady's and gentlemen over here and there journeys with Genos as i am a "all things keyboard fan generally" so no real bias in any particular direction here..... So I have to say what has caught my eye is Genos with V-console which looks like a very interesting propersition indeed and even more so of late as unfortunately the PA4X is not without its problems after the latest major OS V3 update and that is something that can be explored on the korg forum... so could anyone point me to some YouTube user reviews (if one exists) showing Genos and V-console together in a little more depth or any reviews that could be of interest...also I can not see any pdf manual for V-console to study are there any available?..thanks in advance 

[beykock]

Hi Abby :

I think your customers like to see musicians are well dressed. I think it is an important part of your show.🎩
You are not a rock band.👀

We have no idea when the PA5X will be available though.

Some people believe it might take more than one year or longer before it will be available due to the latest/recent PA4X update.

Personally I believe it might be in the music shops sooner than we all may expect ... and order it too soon might be a huge mistake. " Try before you buy " ... remember ? 😻

The PA4X is already a long time there ( 6 - 7 years maybe ? ) ... sorry I cannot remember when it came out for the first time. See Google.

PA700 and PA1000 were introduced in December 2017 or early 2018 ?

I should not be surprised the PA5X ( or a complete new brand name, who knows ? ) will be available early 2020 or even at the end of this year. Nobody knows ...  pure speculation ? 📢

I wonder if it is not better to wait for the new high end Korg arranger ? 😻

Babette

[mikf]

There are many things about being a paid musician that are humdrum or stressful - finding work, getting paid, transporting heavy equipment to/from and in/out of venues, (especially after midnight when you are tired!),  maintaining equipment, staying current, sometimes dealing with people who get out of hand after too much alcohol, .... But one thing that was never a chore was performing for an audience. That was the pleasure that makes it all worth while. Basically a pro is churning out the same rehearsed material over and over and that should be a piece of cake, almost autopilot. Whatever equipment you use, playing it it has to be second nature so you can just relax and enjoy the experience. Of course technical things occasionally go wrong, but a pro can usually deal with that.
I played gigs from the time I was 15 years old, until my mid forties, with a break of some years in the middle and always loved playing for an audience. I probably would have carried on longer but both my wife and my daytime employer had other ideas !
Mike

[DonM]

I've had the PA4x since it came out.  Problems have sprung up, but very few affected me and the way I play.  All problems were quickly corrected by Korg with updates, plus both minor and major upgrades at no cost along the way. 
While I've had the Korg, I have also had Yamaha S970, Ketron SD7 and SD40, and Roland EA7.  They all have their outstanding areas and they all have some drawbacks.  I also auditioned the Genos twice, all day both times.
Having said all this, the only thing that could pry the PA4X from my hands is the introduction of a replacement from Korg, and only then if it offers some features that would be significant help to ME.
I could go into the features that I love, but it has already been done, and I don't want to sound like I'm selling Korgs.
I could actually be happy with any MOTL or TOTL arranger made in the past ten years, if that were necessary.
If Yamaha comes out with an arranger that is light weight, comact size, has good drums and vocal harmonizer, touch screen, preferably joystick, and doesn't cost a fortune, I'll be in the market.  I have zero brand loyalty.
I think we can only benefit from discussions such as this.

[metcam]

I think we can only benefit from discussions such as this.

Well said.

Very good discussions here.


Regards

[beykock]

Hi DonM:

Well said ! 👌

The Korg PA4X is the only real competitor of the Genos today, as far as I know.

Both arrangers are pro instruments but they are different.

It is up to the enduser/player to decide :  a Genos or a PA4X or both.

All depends on the needs of the individual player, IMHO.

However, before he/she can make a final decision, he/she
has to " know " both arrangers very well.

To " know an arranger keyboard " takes a lot of time and energy but it saves a lot of irritation, useless discussions, painful and expensive regrets.

Best regards, Babette

[travlin-easy]

Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

..... I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased....

I am always amazed that Americans feel  100 miles is just nothing.  When coming home at 6 PM from his work a very dear friend of mine in L.A. years ago said to me,  "Let's go and see my cousin, he lives just round the corner." Being Finnish I imagined that would be a 15 minutes drive. We drove over 400 miles round trip .   I sometimes drive to see the YAMAHA importer for Finland,  they used to be located  3 miles from my house. Now they have moved very far away,  is it 12 miles.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[stephenm52]

I am always amazed that Americans feel  100 miles is just nothing.  When coming home at 6 PM from his work a very dear friend of mine in L.A. years ago said to me,  "Let's go and see my cousin, he lives just round the corner." Being Finnish I imagined that would be a 15 minutes drive. We drove over 400 miles round trip .   I sometimes drive to see the YAMAHA importer for Finland,  they used to be located  3 miles from my house. Now they have moved very far away,  is it 12 miles.

Cheers

Kaarlo

This does all sound familiar.  I live in the smallest state in the United States, it is smaller than Yosemite National Park.  Most people who live where I do think driving 10 or 15 miles is a long trip.

[stephenm52]

Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary

Abby, Gary has some nice clothing he was kind enough to send me a nice selection of his satin shirts, vests and matching ties/bow ties.  The only reason I didn't want his tux because I already had 3 and rarely wear them at gigs.

[Pianoman]

Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary

Hello Gary.
You're a wonderful man and I thank you for your kind offer.

Alas, I'm unable to accept your offer as my place is overflowing with clothes as
well as the problem of size.

If I'm correct, I believe that my US size would be 34.

As for ties, I just bought tie number 105 yesterday and will probably buy a couple more
before the week is over.

I think that I have a tie fetish, as I can't walk past a tie shop without buying one or two.
Probably the same with shoes.

I have about 11 Tux suits that I use for my work, and 3 more for casual  events.

I also wear almost exclusively cotton shirts, of which I have bought 6 in May, to
add to the other ones that I already have.

Thank you for your kindness but I wouldn't know what to do with the extra clothing.

Best Regards old friend.
Abby.

[beykock]

Hi Giggers :

WOW !👏👏👏

You are ALL Wonderful People !😃😃😃

I call it " Real Friendship " !🏆🏆🏆

Babette

[robinez]

interesting topic.

i also have a korg pa4x and a yamaha genos so i can compare them really well and would like to add my thoughts about it.

My opionion is that it's a matter of personal preference, both keyboards are top of the line but also use a quite different approach.

i agree with all the comments in the previous posts, here are my thoughts regarding some of the comments:

Yamaha Registrations versus Korg songbook:
The yamaha registrations are more like snapshots from your current style setup and also include the style settings. The Korg songbook only has one registration (if you compare it to a genos), however, it uses a different approach, in Korg you can change anything in that style without destroying the original style, this goes really far, you can program new sounds for that specific style, You can change elements of the style (like different sound mappings, other bass patterns, etc), you can create chord sequence to play along for that specific song. Custom multipads and much more. It's extremely powerful and the heart of using a korg pa4x and one style or song registration can be changed in a way that it's impossible to recognise the original style (which still will be the original in the style library).

In the genos this is not really possible, if you make changes that way you have to save the style as a new style, also chord sequences are missing, the reprogramming of sounds on a genos is limited to a few parameters, etc.


Yamaha multipads versus Korg Multipads:
Here the yamaha has a much better implemenation then the korg. It's so easy on a genos to create your own multipads (audio or midi, even custom arpeggiators) with almost no limits to audiosize. Korg has very limited functionality on this part and the Genos is miles ahead in this area.


Styles:
This is a matter of preference. I think if your goal is to play covers that are sounding close to the original arrangements then the yamaha genos is the way to go, there are so many song styles available for the yamaha genos that the list seems endless. The korg pa4x has a much more limited list of styles. Also there are only a few song specific styles available for the korg Pa4x.

Sound wise the styles are mixed differently and also the density of styles are different. The Genos has complete arrangements and sounds more like playing the melody over a cd arrangement. The Korg Pa4x has much sparser styles where you have to do a lot more yourself to get close to playing a cover. The Korg Pa4x is more like playing with a live band.

One thing the Korg has great support for new styles, every 6 till 8 weeks there are free bonus styles available on their website in different genres that you can download for free. This is the case for almost anything on a korg, once you buy a korg then almost anything is free.


Updates:
The korg pa4x had 2 major updates in the last few years. These added lot's of new functions (like a new Kaos Effect Processor, a new very high quality piano, enhanced memory to 3 Gigabytes for your expansion packs by introducing sample streaming functionality and more new sounds, styles, etc). Every major update make it seems like having a brand new Keyboard. And all these updates are free of charge.

The Yamaha genos doesn't have this major features in their updates, the updates until now seems to add only minor addons to the feature set. Maybe in the future it will add major new functionalities?


OTS versus keyboard sets:
If you create your own sound setups (by combining the three upper and one lower element to a total sound) then the Korg Pa4x has a feature called Keyboard Sets, you can save your own sound sets to a library which you can call up anytime you want, even when playing live you can change infinitely between this keyboard sets.

Yamaha does this through the OTS feature, however, those are limited to the selected style. If you want to do something compareable then you have to create up till 10 registrations for your specific song. The OTS is changed depending on the connected style (unless you use the freeze button), but it is possible, although not as convenient as selecting realtime keyboards sets during play.



Creating your own arpeggiators:
Both keyboards can do this, but it is much easier on a yamaha Genos, for instance if you want to connect a new arpeggiator pattern to your left hand, then you can do this within minutes in the multipad midi creator and assign this to a multipad.


Creating your own styles:
The korg pa4x can analyse your midi files to create a new style from it. The results are sometimes really good and sometimes really bad (depending on the midi file). There is a feature on the korg pa4x where you can import a style created in your daw, those results are always really good if you set the labels correctly in your midi file.

The yamaha Genos can create styles onboard by recording every element or by merging elements of styles to create a new version (assembly). This is a very easy proces (much easier then on a korg pa4x), so it's a breeze to create great new styles from elements of the thousends of styles available on a yamaha genos.

I think that for the majority of users the Yamaha genos way is the best way to do it, since it's so easy to do.


Style locations
The korg pa4x has memory slots for every style. Also they can add extra memory slots by using a SET file on a usb stick, but still the memory location space is limited.

The yamaha genos is unlimited, it can load styles in realtime from your usb locations and has a much better system for style management.


User friendly:
The korg pa4x has a very difficult to understand interface, it can do a lot (it even has a fully fledged synthesizer including wave sequencing! on board), but since every button has multiple implementations you need to study a lot before you know your way around a korg pa4x.

The yamaha genos is very easy to understand, the user interface is straight forward and i didn't need much time to understand the feature set.


My conclusion:
There is no good or bad, it's all a matter of preference. Both keyboard are using a very different approach so they complement eachother very well. My opinion is that if you want to play covers in a convenient easy way with lot's of available song styles then the yamaha genos has no competition. If you are looking for a more complex keyboard with lots of programming features and more ranged on styles that sounds like you are playing with a live band then the korg pa4x is a more obvious choice.

Combining both board will give you everything. I'm glad that i have both keyboards, it's not nessecary of course, but it's a lot of fun

[beykock]

Hi Robinez :

Thank you for your comments.

As you have noticed well we discussed this issue many times before. 
Finally we all are coming to the same conclusion.

You are not the only member with a high end Yamaha - and a high end Korg arranger keyboard in this group but most of you ...  are sharing the same conclusion.   

Imagine the Genos2 will have almost all the PA4X features. A real WOW, maybe ?
But ... will Korg wait that long to launch their PA4X successor ?
Will that new Korg kb add also some of the present Genos arranger features and even more ... ? Who knows ?

IMHO I believe both arrangers are great instruments ... they are serious competitors ( yet ) though.
In the near future competition urge might be increased between those two ... or they might become one big family in the long term, who knows.
The arranger market became very small and nowadays only 2 manufacturers are the main players.

A close collaboration between both companies is not excluded, I guess.
They are both located in Japan and far away from Europe and the USA. 

Finally it is up to the consumer to decide but their is one important difference : their OS.
Having two brands with a complete different OS makes it not always so easy for the enduser, IMHO.

Bye for now, Babette

[Wouter1972]

The arranger market became very small and nowadays only 2 manufacturers are the main players.

Finally it is up to the consumer to decide but their is one important difference : their OS.
Having two brands with a complete different OS makes it not always so easy for the enduser, IMHO.

Hi Babette,
I think for users of arranger keyboards it mostly is easy in the sense that you are familiair with the OS of the particular arranger and that it somehow works for you. The fact there is still something to choose for the consumer makes it even more sensible to me