I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....

[Yinon]

I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....

Prices are going down in the US and I got a 76 key new for $2800.
Before I continue and before the good people on this forum start bashing me I will state immediately - I'm keeping my Genos too 

One more note - these comparing notes are subjective and it's my own. I'm not paid by Korg or Yamaha to review and much like most of you on this forum, you I'm a musician who wanted to taste both

There are quite few YouTube vidoes out comparing the Genos to the Pa4X.
These are focused mostly on Styles and Sounds.

Sounds -
The sound quality of Genos is superb. Nothing can touch it. Since I have the Genos for over a year, I will allow myself few more weeks for final verdict but at his point any sound I pick on the Genos sound better to me than the Korg.
If you are looking for a workstation with great samples - Genos is your ultimate instrument.

Styles -
I think that this has a lot to do whit how you use styles. Some folk use Midi files which again will take to point 1 and the sound. I need to start and state I' mostly playing styles. I think that styles provide an easy way to play a song if you are a piano player (and play chords on your right hand and bass on your left). In this way of playing, there is no melody played except for instrumental solo every now and then and this method is used to accompany a vocalist.
In my view - the Korg Styles sound a little more like a live band. The Genos - the new Styles with the Revo drums in my ears sound like a movie production or a CD.
Before people jump here - Live band is usually 4-5 players, its is usually punchy feel and the drums and bass are key to make you feel the music. For Genos - I holnstly think it's the sound selection and mix ... and the complexity of the styles which make it sound too complex - something you can only do in a recording studio.
The Korg is arrangement in the styles is simple and what I would expect from a well experienced band to play.
Having said that - any style in Genos is customization and can be "dialed down".
The easy way is to save a registration and start muting some of the extra channels.

If you are gigging, if your playing rock/pop/country and if you don't have time to get into style customization - Korg will give you a better starting point. It's styles are generic (less song orinted) so you can select a ballad and play multiple songs with it.

BTW - oddly the older Yamaha styles sound much closer to a live band. If you check the Tyros3,4,5 styles it seems like the "studio production" feel is significantly lower with the older styles so I tend to pick these rather than messing with the new Genos styles.
The Pa4X feels more like a Tyros 3, 4 with the out of the box styles ...

Body and Build -
In this case I must choose the Kord. The Genos shape is like a little spaceship control center. The round shape, the lights, the colors (white lower body?) the kebod lights ... feels like a toy ..
It is also very wide comparing to the Korg. This impacts our ability to find a non-customize case or flight case for it ....

The Korg is 2Kg heavier but is built like a tank. Metal aluminum body. the colors are dark and. Led lights indicators are on the button but do not light up the entire button. (I think these buttons will last longer this way).

Keybed -
This again a personal preference.
The Genos key are very smooth and very light to the touch. Genos keyed feels like a fast waterfall organ.
The Pa4X keyed is tighter and feels heavier.
When playing a Piano/E Piano the korg feels better and this helps the dynamics.
Every other instrument - Genos keyed wins ...
The reason is that you need a light keyed to be able to gliss when playing horns, be very quick when you are playing guitars or flutes so if you use the Pa4X mostly with Styles and your main voices are Piano's and E-Piano - this is your instrument.
For workstation versatility of pre-recording, If you are using Genos mostly to play added instruments live - Organ, Hammond, Horns, Flutes, Sax, Guitar - Genos keyed will be helpful.

keyboard ergonomics - (Keyboard layout and design)
This is a big section and I will get to write it up later.

All in all - both great instruments and you should buy the one that fits your needs the most. 

Cheers

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent post, Yinnon. No worries about starting a battle at my end of the world. You expressed a very objective point of view and pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of both boards.

I really like my Genos but agree that playing live shows where there is a high level of ambient noise, is a challenge with the drums and bass. When time permits, I'm going to overhaul all my Registrations and create custom drum and bass parts that will cut through the noise.

I think it's important to note that when playing in a noisy environment, the Genos doesn't cut through the noise as well as the T5 - probably for the reasons you mentioned. The Genos sounds more like a CD than a "cut through the noise" keyboard. For shows where people just sit and listen, there is nothing that compares with the Genos.

[panos]

Nice review Yinon.

For "live" playing sound I would do those on an arranger:
1.Expand the style measures.(from 4 to 8 or 16 or 32.It depends by each song)
While I was doing that I would go to edit tab and change the notes to different volume levels
(now they are equalized for "CD quality",right?)
I would also delete some "secondary" notes here and there.

2.Change the volumes of the parts.
You want especially drums and maybe bass? to be much louder than the other organs (parts).
I would increased the "High EQ" effect with drum parts so the hi hat sounds be more loud
and increased the "Low EQ" effect so you can feel  the Bass drum hit you in the face.

3.I would lower down the unnecessary "studio made" effects (reverb for example).
The styles must be as "dry" as possible.

4.If a voice still sounds like "CD quality" I would pick another voice.There are plenty for each organ.

5.I would change the pan of the parts so it wouldn't be so nicely equalized from a studio.
Maybe all organs are playing together almost in the middle and someone is playing at far right?


I just thought that if there are some principles to achieve a "CD quality" doing the exact opposites maybe will make you sound like a "live band" maybe?

[voodoo]

Hi Yinon,

excellent post. I find it important to compare the "own" brand with the rest, just to know, what is possible.
When you find new points, please write us a report. I hope, nobody will start bashing.

Although I am happy with my Genos, and I decided for it intentionally, there are points I like on the Korg keyboards:

* more weighted keybed (your description is very good), but Genos keybed is also very good.
* capacitive touch with tilt (but the Korg graphics is like C64, Genos UI is much more modern), but Genos Touch is also very good.
* more compact build and more hardware buttons, where Genos is more beautiful (as you described)
* better sounds in category organ and synth, but Genos is unreached with SA2 natural voices
* better and deeper editing possibilities, but in real life I am happy with Genos as it is
* chord sequencer (I love this function and miss it on Genos)

In other aspects, the PA is more restricted as compared to the Yamaha philosophy, for example

* fixed number of memory slots for voices and styles, where as Genos allows unlimited number of voices, styles and regs on user or USB drive
* fixed system of mode (voice, song, style), where as Genos can combine all together
* fixed system of DSP effects. Using more voices at the same time uses the DSP of the first voice. Genos can combine several parts including all DSP.
* no registrations for memorizing everything

So it is interesting to know the differences to understand the strength of the own instrument.

Uli

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent points, Panos. This post has made me think that we need to set up our Genos in one of two modes: playing at home and live playing. They really are opposite sides of the same coin !

It would be nice if we could use global settings to achieve these modes. I'm going to play around with this idea and if anything of value results, I'll post back.

[Lee Batchelor]

no registrations for memorizing everything.

I didn't know that about the Korg. That would be a deal breaker for me. How do you store settings then??

[voodoo]

I didn't know that about the Korg. That would be a deal breaker for me. How do you store settings then??

I think it has a kind of song book, but not as mighty and flexible as registrations.

[beykock]

Hello Yinon,

What a great source of information !🎩

Wonderful ! THANK YOU VERY MUCH !😺

What I really like is " how " you are explaining the differences between both high end arranger keyboards.👏

It is up to the (end)user to decide which arranger keyboard he/she wants to buy to make his/her dream come true.

But ... if I hear you well ... you are saying the best option
would be : having both arrangers, right ?

The perfect combination, maybe ?

I will seriously think it over ...
Having a T5/76 - an arranger I really love very much -  + adding a second hand PA4X in my home studio, sounds like " music to my ears ".😀

Would be a very nice birthday present ... 💥

👍

Best wishes, Babette
 

[guitpic1]

I had a 61 key PA 4X.  Excellent keyboard...just didn't compare, for me anyway, to my Genos.

[Bachus]

Nice review Yinon.

For "live" playing sound I would do those on an arranger:
1.Expand the style measures.(from 4 to 8 or 16 or 32.It depends by each song)
While I was doing that I would go to edit tab and change the notes to different volume levels
(now they are equalized for "CD quality",right?)
I would also delete some "secondary" notes here and there.

2.Change the volumes of the parts.
You want especially drums and maybe bass? to be much louder than the other organs (parts).
I would increased the "High EQ" effect with drum parts so the hi hat sounds be more loud
and increased the "Low EQ" effect so you can feel  the Bass drum hit you in the face.

3.I would lower down the unnecessary "studio made" effects (reverb for example).
The styles must be as "dry" as possible.

4.If a voice still sounds like "CD quality" I would pick another voice.There are plenty for each organ.

5.I would change the pan of the parts so it wouldn't be so nicely equalized from a studio.
Maybe all organs are playing together almost in the middle and someone is playing at far right?


I just thought that if there are some principles to achieve a "CD quality" doing the exact opposites maybe will make you sound like a "live band" maybe?

Very well said, its not that hard to make Genos styles sound much more live.
Also you have a great tool to edit the Genos drums.
But your list of tips is top knotch

I think its much much harder to make a live sounding style sound much more cd-like.
Because that would require adding things to the arrangements..


Well said, and there is much to be learned for everyone in your post (including me)

[stephenm52]

I didn't know that about the Korg. That would be a deal breaker for me. How do you store settings then??

Yinon congrats on your Pa4x! 

Songbook is how you make your registrations, Korg does it differently. I have both a Pa4x-76 and a Genos.  In my opinion Yamaha registrations allow more flexibility on set ups especially when you have 10 buttons. 

With Songbook on the Korg you chose your styles, voices, keychanges, volume levels, vocalized settings etc. Then you save your entries as a Songbook entry ( in a way similar to a playlist entry in Genos or even the MFD system on the PSR and Tyros series). 

Both are great instruments and Yinon has given an excellent review.   I find the Genos and Korg Pa4x is like food some days I may want a steak other days a pizza.  Some days I want to play the Genos other days the Pa4x.   I will say though lately my go to keyboard for gigs is the Genos.   For live play I still give the edge to the Korg Pa4x especially the vocal harmonizer sections.

I prefer the keybed of the Pa4x, but that's because I'm basically a pianist.  No matter what both are superb instruments.

[marcodg]

I can understand you. The Genos sounds are really good but the pa4x does have some nice advantage. I owned it 1 years after using yamaha keyboard since 10 years. I went back to Genos for 6 months but i really consider to buy as second Keyboard a pa4x 61 int. The best option is always to have them both.

[beykock]

Hi,

It would be interesting for me to hear from giggers how they feel about the sound differences : " cd - and live band sound ". I would be very delighted to read their feedback.😁

Now I hear from some members it is possible to change the so called " cd Genos sound " into the " live band sound " too.

Very good news and a big advantage, I guess.

It might be possible the newest Genos update of June 28, 2019 will bring a lot of editing improvements ...
That would be great !

Babette

[Lee Batchelor]

Babette, I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect the Genos can be placed in a more live mode through the Master EQ and Compression page. I single push button selection would be fantastic. I will give it a try for sure!

[Nickt5]

I have owned both and now have my Genos.  My personal opinion is that the Korg build quality is far better than the Genos - If ever you've played one you'll know what I mean but sadly it is let down by the styles as Yamaha are winners in that respect.

The Korg is much more of a band musicians instrument and the clarity and sounds are excellent but the genos sounds like a 'polished band'with lots of EQ so its a much better 'finished' sound ready to play with minimal tweaking.

[Bachus]

I have owned both and now have my Genos.  My personal opinion is that the Korg build quality is far better than the Genos - If ever you've played one you'll know what I mean but sadly it is let down by the styles as Yamaha are winners in that respect.

The Korg is much more of a band musicians instrument and the clarity and sounds are excellent but the genos sounds like a 'polished band'with lots of EQ so its a much better 'finished' sound ready to play with minimal tweaking.

About the buildquallity

Modern day plastics are superior to metal in almost any way..
They are just as strong.. but are more flexible..
When a Genos drops, it bends back to its orriginal form..
But when a metal pa4x drops, chances are high that it bends and stays bended..

The power and strength of modern day plastics is very much underrated..

On the other hand, nothing beats real metal and real wood where it comes to looks.

[dacca]

Korg PA4x vs Yamaha Genos - comparison sound and styles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vh8dNNBIqI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YwAarhuH2I

Grt Marc

[Yinon]

Thanks everyone for your nice comments and thanks for not starting the usual Korg vs Yamaha fight ... 

Babette - I would not recommend owning both unless you have a studio and need the extra sounds or unless you have extra $3000.
In my opinion, when you gig and play real time (I'm not talking about midi songs) you need to be able to activate and control many of your buttons - song variations, fills, sound selection changes, pads, vocal harmony you may want to control during etc.

The instruments are very different on their ergonomic layout.
I think that switching between the 2 for alternate gigs will be very confusing for your "muscle memory" and your hand will reach out to the wrong button or location.

This leads me to the next section of Ergonomic Design - (Layout of the keyboard).

I got to be honest - although it seems like Genos allows more functionality... The Korg has better ergonomic design (for me)

The pads are on the left and close to the transport. (start, stop, fills, variation)
These pads are often used to activate loops and be in essence another variation to the song section.
Your left hand should be naturally reaching left for either set a fill, new variation or a  .... pad.
(This was the T5 design and was by far better for me).

Another key button not hidden under menus (or registration) is chord scan.
The Korg has 2 buttons close to your right hand which will allow you to scan lower, upper or both parts of the keyboard.
This is excellent when you want to switch between playing your full keyboard to recognize chords (which I do 90% of the time) or go the solo part of the song. With this you can immediately switch, play the chords on the left hand and the solo you play with your right hand will not interrupt the chord recognition.

Moreover - it seems like the Korg had something I wished Genos had for many months.
Its seems like you can save the chrod scan configuration with a sound.
So when you select a sax it will deactivate the full scan automatically and will just go to lower scan.
A piano, e-piano sound switch will keep you on full keys scan.

No matter how you look at this this is available in a button with a led indicator close to you. - Very useful for me!

Metronome - The Korg has a button to lock the tempo.
"Temo + -" On the right hand, allowing the keep changing the chords while changing tempo.

Fade In/Out - the Korg has these dedicated buttons right by the transport.

Sound and Style Criteria buttons - instead of touching the screen constantly the Korg has buttons for each criteria.

This can all be done with Genos - but it feels more natural with Pa4X.

Screen Tilt -
The Korg screen can be tilted and if you ever lost your screen in the Sun using Genos - this is very useful.
I think that the material for the screen is different too.
The Korg Screen feels like an Ipad screen while the Genos is soft .... and few cases I have to re-touch it.

Last - Tempo Reset -
I know that many of you will not care about this ...
I have seen many people who are willing to take take a song with changing time stamp (4/4 -> 2/4 -> 4/4) and keep using a 4/4 style throughout the song without feeling it. (In this case your 3 beat becomes a "1")
I can't ...
It confuses me and the style feeling is wrong.
The fills are not going sound good and they will be coming half way ...

The Korg has a reset Temp button.
While you are playing a style, no matter where you are in the bar, hitting the button will reset it the style to the "1"
this is critical for many modern songs and the fact that you need to go through so much trouble with registrations is killing theses songs for me. (Just avoiding them with Genos or Midi file with DAW edit).

True - Genos does have "half a break" optional pedal function.
I tried it for a while - 1. This only works on symeric tempos (so songs like 4/4 -> 3/4 -> 4/4 cannot be handled)
2. It takes a lot of training to activate the pedal on time tohhave the half bar triggered.

Having said that, Vali informed us that temp reset is coming with Genos 1.4 update.
If nothing else comes and only this feature ... I will be extremely happy.

I know this long and it feels like I'm recommending the Korg ....
However -

I need to say that with Korg I feel that sometimes the chord recognition is not accurate, there are hickups on chords changes and I'm not sure Korgs recognize the "Jazzy" chords so well - 7,9,11,13. I sometimes struggle to hear the Korg play them back in the style accurately.

Bottom line -
My main keys are Genos and at this point it will remain my main :-)

[stephenm52]

The instruments are very different on their ergonomic layout.
I think that switching between the 2 for alternate gigs will be very confusing for your "muscle memory" and your hand will reach out to the wrong button or location.

I can only speak for myself but for the last 8 years or so I've owned both Yamaha and Korg at the same time.  I had a Pa800/PSR3000,  then Pa2xPro,  then Pa3x/Tryos4,  then the Pa4x/Tyros5 and finally Genos/Pa4x.   I've switched between the 2 and gigged and rehearsed enough where I'm comfortable switching off between the 2 boards only because I've had many hours at both brands.  For a newbie to Korg who has worked only with Yamaha and vice versa switching could be confusing.

[vbdx66]

Hi Steve,

Now for a dumb question:

If you were stuck on a desert island for the rest of your life (but with enough food, water and power supply), would you opt for the Korg or for the Genos?

I am really curious to read your answer.

Regards,

Vinciane

[voodoo]

got to be honest - although it seems like Genos allows more functionality... The Korg has better ergonomic design (for me)

Yinon,

thank you again for these precise evaluation.

As you mention, there are some fine features that make life easier, sich as chord sequencer, tempo reset, or chord scan mode. Perhaps we will get some functions in both worlds in future.

Another comment on registrations: Korg has the concept of key sets. This is a library of settings for the keyboard parts only. And in the presets there are some very cool sound combinations. for example, a setting for "Jump", giving fat sound by layering some synth sounds. This can be simulated by registrations or OTS on Yamaha, but it is not quite the same.

Yinon, do you make use of these key sets?

Uli

[mikf]

I have never owned a Korg, but played around with then in a dealers. My impression is that while the two brands are broadly equivalent, there is a difference in design philosophy of their top end models. The Korg just seems more aimed at pro players with features and layout. Their alternative to registrations for example seemed more intuitive and more suited to gig organization. Both brands sound good, and I think the differences can be overstated, but if I had bought Korg first, I might have stayed with it. But the difference is not enough for me to consider changing because I don't see it as important enough to invest effort in the change. If it were my day to day living I might look at it differently.
Re the sound, ....on enthusiast forums people sometimes obsess about differences that are too small to be noticed by most listeners, especially when they cannot compare directly. Compared to quality of performance this is almost a non issue. Give a mediocre singer the best mic and sound system in the world and they are still a mediocre singer.
Mike

[stephenm52]

Hi Steve,

Now for a dumb question:

If you were stuck on a desert island for the rest of your life (but with enough food, water and power supply), would you opt for the Korg or for the Genos?

I am really curious to read your answer.

Regards,

Vinciane

Hi Vinciane,

That's not a dumb question! I think it's a great question! First I pray that I'm never on that desert    The answer is easy I'd keep both ( all kidding aside).  I'd pick the Genos to keep.  If you had asked me if I had a Tyros5 and Pa4x which would I keep on the desert, it would have been the Pa4x.  My feeling is that Genos improved in many ways including smaller foot print for transporting to gigs( Genos fits in the same case as my Pa4x)  and the inclusion of the playlist feature that in some ways mimic the Songbook feature in the Pa4x.   There's also many other improvements that I enjoy to the Genos too numerous to list.

[Lee Batchelor]

First I pray that I'm never on that desert

Me too! It would be a real chore trying to get people out to your gig!!

All kidding aside, I've never seen a Korg up close but it sounds like it is more of a gigging machine than Genos. On the other hand, if you can learn to skate around some of the missing buttons on the Genos that we used to have on the T5, you're good to go. Hopefully, the update will aid in some of these issues.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
I could not hold myself today and upgraded Sonarworks to the complete studio edition with mic.
I have got to crack the mixing 20% off headphone upgrade.
Hope the Gen s sings after room correction.

All the Best
John

[Eric, B]

One of the main things to get a life sound is to reduce the overall reverb.
For the home player it might be fine, but for life play Yamaha drowns their styles and sounds in too much reverb.
I use Stage1 on the Genos for Global to get a much more dry sound.
Just enough reverb for fullness.
As already mentioned I turn up the drums and base and adjust EQ.
The audience doesn't care if it is life sounding or not.
The main thing is the groove. Its got to be tight.
Driven by Base and drums in most cases. There are a few exceptions.
Genos styles have a good groove.
Of course the PA4X too.
I owned many KB's and was always able to achieve the sound I wanted.
My audience never complaint that my KB's were not life sounding enough ...
I auditioned the PA4X several times, but still like my Genos better at this point for the kind of music I do.
Plus there are soooo many song specific styles available for Yamaha.
The PA4X is certainly a great KB and I would recommend it to some over the Genos.
It comes down to taste.
Most people don't use a lot of editing. Even the ones who gig.
The Genos gives me plenty of tools at this time.
I might be swayed by the PA5X .... Who knows.
Great topic.
Thanks
Eric

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

.....The best option is always to have them both.

I admire you, I could not do that. Apart from the difficulty  deciding which instrument to take to the gig or taking even both (!) in the heat of a gig you must be able to press the right buttons just like you have to use the right whiskers on your car.
I have a 30 year old Mercedes and a 19  years old Range Rover. They both have the steering wheel on the left side, but the whiskers and the way to engage constant speed and operate the seats and windows  is not the same.  In a stressful situation I still after so many years may do the wrong thing.
I still have the in my view  very nice YAMAHA 5700,  but  when I try to play on it I just cannot remember which button to press.

I admire you just like I admire those who can do the fingering and embouchure switchin from a ternor sax to clarinet.  Switching to a Trumpet in the middle of a tune must be easier just as I used to have no difficulties switching from a Vespa to a car.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Tommy 73]

Hi Lee
I could not hold myself today and upgraded Sonarworks to the complete studio edition with mic.
I have got to crack the mixing 20% off headphone upgrade.
Hope the Gen s sings after room correction.

All the Best
John

John I'm sure you will love it... I could not be without Sonarworks now if i tried... don't forget you can make profiles for you Focals and yamaha speakers but of course you Focals are the important ones  https://www.gearnews.com/sonarworks-reference-4-3-update-adds-dark-mode-usability-improvements/

[beykock]

Hi,

After reading all these comments, I understand most people will finally go for the Genos instead of the Korg PA4X, right ?

Babette

[Eric, B]

Hi,

After reading all these comments, I understand most people will finally go for the Genos instead of the Korg PA4X, right ?

Babette

Of course, as we are on a Yamaha Forum ... 
Same Question on a Korg Forum - different outcome 
Eric