My Genos Froze.

[Pianoman]

My Genos froze last night, 5 minutes before starting a gig.

The buttons didn't respond, neither did the menus or anything else for that matter.
I tried switching it off but that didn't work either, so I had to unplug the power cable
in order to switch it off.

I then did a reset, just to be sure, and then it got working again.

I have owned a Tyros3 for 10 years, and not once did it ever freeze.
It was robust and reliable until the motherboard started giving me problems a
couple of months ago.

I have owned the Genos for almost 3 months now and it's already showing weaknesses.

I am not a big fan of the Genos but had to buy it out of necessity 2 days before starting
my gig season, when my T3 gave me trouble and there was nothing else available at short
notice.

I am trying so hard to like this instrument, but the sound is terrible and I struggle every day
to get a decent sound out of it, Especially from the preset styles.

It's incredible that the 3rd party styles posted on this very forum sound better than many
of the Genos preset styles.

I suspect that whoever designed or programmed these styles, especially the drums,
has never gigged in the real world of noisy stages, bars, restaurants, hotels etc.and have
probably spent most of their time in the safety of a sanitized studio.

Car manufacturers clock 10s of thousands of miles testing their cars, from the coldest
arctic climates to the hottest deserts of the world, not to mention racetracks like the
Nurburgring,, before presenting them to the public as a finished product.

I am now gigging 6 times a week, so I won't really be able to try any more adjustments
until early November, when the gigs slow down a bit.

The compressor settings aren't much to write home about, as all they seem to do is
mainly just raise the general volume or strangle the right hand voices when
increased.

After trying various EQ settings, without any improvement in sound, I only succeeded
in damaging the woofer on one of my main JBL speakers.

This is a flawed instrument in so many ways, and I refuse to insistently repeat the mantra
of "Genos good, Genos good" as some may want to do here.

Doing so would be like making excuses for a partner who constantly lets you down.

It is time for us to come clean and admit that what we have here is an instrument
with questionable durability and reliability, not to mention other flaws.

I put an instrument to the test 6 nights a week every week, for the most diverse public
that one can find anywhere, maintaining the gig intensity for 180 nights every year,
before things slow down to 2 or 3 gigs a week.

So I like to think that this has enabled me to have a bit of knowledge about sound quality
and dynamics.

And just to dispel the notion that this is Yamaha bashing, I have exclusively used Yamaha
instruments since 1971, apart from my current JBLs and Kawai MP11, and a Fender Rhodes
I owned from 1980 to 1984.

I've owned Yamaha Organs, Synthesizers, Leslies, Amplifiers, PA sound systems,
Saxophones, Flutes, Pianos, a Trumpet, and 2 Yamaha motorbikes.


Best Regards.
Abby.

[Toril S]

Abby, you have my deepest sympathy!! I am just thinking: could a PSR 975 fill your needs instead of the Genos? Even better, search for a Tyros 5. Hang in there!

[Roland]

Hello Abby,

I don't own a Genos (yet) - but you make me really wonder now if I should wait for the next generation to come out. Most of my friends using it seem more or less happy with it, except a few who gig and miss the fast button access vs. navigating menus.

As for the styles: If I recall correctly, Yamaha lets you download the previous keyboard generation styles (forgot where they are, but I'm sure you will find them.) So why not download those? You might want to go through every one of them to make sure that everything is mapped correctly (so you don't get any "Revo Drum" surprises in places where you don't expect them.)

And as for reliability: I just hope that the next update which should come out soon will address that. You're getting me worried here :-(

Have a super weekend. Cheers, Roland

[DrakeM]

Hi Abby

So now will you start making yourself Custom Styles and save them to your USB stick?

If you use Registration, then connect them to your Custom Styles.

That way when you purchase your next Yamaha keyboard ... you don't have to go through this sort of thing again.

I went from a PSR2000 to a PSR-S950 with no issues doing the upgrade.

Every style I use when gigging is coming from my USB stick. And I have 3 copies of the it and back them up every 2 to 3 months. As I continue to add 3 to 5 new custom song styes each month.

Regards
Drake

[Fred Smith]

Abby,

Why use Genos presets at all if you don't like them? Why not just use what you had on the T3 that you liked so much.

When I upgraded from my T4 to the Genos, I copied everything from the T4 to a USB stick. I had them working on the Genos within 30 minutes of turning it on.

If you still have your T3 styles, why not go back to them?

Cheers,
Fred

[andyg]

I suspect that whoever designed or programmed these styles, especially the drums, has never gigged in the real world of noisy stages, bars, restaurants, hotels etc.and have probably spent most of their time in the safety of a sanitized studio.

I happen to know many of the people who programmed the styles, some have been good friends and colleagues for over 40 years. Your suspicions are way off the mark! These guys have all served their apprenticeships the hard way, gigging in all the places you mentioned for years and doing a lot more besides. They're basically the same team that has worked on all the Tyros and high end PSR models.

As far as the freeze is concerned, have you considered the purity of the AC mains supply where you were. All of the freezes I've encountered over the past 49 years have been on digital instruments or 'analogue instruments under digital control'. In many cases it's been down to something putting ripples, spikes etc onto the mains. Other people's faulty instruments on occasion and even a really electrically noisy set of Christmas lights. You might like to check out what devices can prevent this happening!

[soryt]

just buy a  "old" remanufactured Tyros 3 , and jou lost a lot of frustrations .

If the Genos isnt youre friend right now , it wil never be .

S,

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Abbey

If i was playing out  professionally I would make sure to have a back up keyboard.
I personally think that in this digital age it is a must as electrical or computer software is vulnerable to glitches.
I used to run a disco years ago and thank god i carried a spare amplifier.
Amplifiers hate Larger and lime.
I also think that the Genos is not a keyboard for out of the box playing as it is a workstation. You have to manipulate the sounds and rythms, eq and effects etc to get a good end result.
The older keyboards were not so complicated and  easier play.
We all know that when new designs come out things are more complicated and more interesting adding to the learn curve.
The Genos sounds much better than it's predecessers . It has to be manipulated


All The Best
John   

[EileenL]

As has been mentioned I would firstly check the electrical supply. Keyboards will react if this is not constant and could be your problem. Remember there are other things
to check before you blame it on the keyboard.
  Most of us like very much some of the new styles on Genos but not always all. I always revert back to the styles I have used and tweaked myself in the past for certain songs and they sound great on Genos
and much richer than they did in my previous Yamaha keyboards as dose the OTS I set for them.

[StuartR]

As far as the freeze is concerned, have you considered the purity of the AC mains supply where you were. All of the freezes I've encountered over the past 49 years have been on digital instruments or 'analogue instruments under digital control'. In many cases it's been down to something putting ripples, spikes etc onto the mains. Other people's faulty instruments on occasion and even a really electrically noisy set of Christmas lights. You might like to check out what devices can prevent this happening!

Absolutely agree. You should be playing through a pure sinewave UPS or a surge suppressor with good EMI filtering (ISOBAR for example) . Not at all expensive for the small amount of current these keyboards draw.

[Bachus]

Cóuld be unstable voltages at the gig?

Do you use surge protection, or even better a small ups with power stabillization?


Either that or a corrupted user file/song/style/voice...
Those are in general the most common reasons of freezing/crashing..


My Genos is still rockstable, even when switched on for hours..

[Pianoman]

I am beginning to suspect that it could be something to do with the free expansion pack
I installed just before loading the Genos into the car.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
What happens if there is an EMP strike?

[Mark Z.]

No , that is impossible . I have 18 Sound Packs in my Genos
including the free one and my Genos never gives me a problem .
The free Pack is good , if you like it or not is a matter of taste .

I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .

That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .

Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes
"how to questions "

Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing
messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .

[Bachus]

No , that is impossible . I have 18 Sound Packs in my Genos
including the free one and my Genos never gives me a problem .
The free Pack is good , if you like it or not is a matter of taste .

I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .

That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .

Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes
"how to questions "

Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing
messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .

Aren't there a few to many assumptions that make you jump to this conclusion?

I am sure there is a logical explanation for a single freeze up..
And you can never rule out corrupted data..

[Pianoman]

No , that is impossible . I have 18 Sound Packs in my Genos
including the free one and my Genos never gives me a problem .
The free Pack is good , if you like it or not is a matter of taste .

I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .

That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .

Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes
"how to questions "

Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing
messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .

What on earth has come over you Mark?

I am not a "Beginner" and have been using complex instruments since before
you ever owned or played an instrument.

I am flattered that you talk about me with Music shops employees,
but what do mean by "Normal Members" anyway?

I do own a Genos and have paid good money for it and it is my right to criticise it
when I think that something is wrong with it.

Do you even know what it's like to stand in front of 200/300 people and silence
falls upon the room as everyone waits for you to start playing, then your
instrument freezes on you?

I play my instrument for a living and have a contractual obligation to deliver on an
agreed performance whether my instrument has frozen, or I'm ill, have lost my voice,
or have broken hands.

As I mentioned in my first original post above, I have exclusively owned Yamaha instruments
and even Yamaha motorbikes from the age of 17, I am now 64.

That is 47 years with Yamaha. Can you say the same for yourself?

Please let me remind you that you are neither an administrator, nor a moderator,
and nor do you own this forum.

I please urge to address other members with respect.
Respecting others is a sign of good upbringing and education.

This is the second time that you address me with disrespect.
The first time was about 10 months ago but I chose to ignore your comments
and not respond.

I know of no other member of this forum who deliberately shows disrespect
to another member.

I am attaching pictures of my Genos here for your perusal.
I will attach more pictures tomorrow after I set up my gear.
.
Best Regards.
Abby.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[louwe46]

Best friends.
For me the Genos is still not what it should be, with me it also happens that it freezes, happened several times, after power off again good.
Regarding Rhythms, sometimes it is to weep how a rhythm is composed, not much attention has been given to the whole device, the intention is good but the expected is not realized.
I played with Roland, with all the Tyros, the best for me was Tyros 4.

I grasp De Heer Pianoman, he is disappointed, of which I think there are several, but who dare not express themselves.
Yamahah genos is not what it should be, maybe it will get better after the next update.

Sorry I don't want to despise anyone here, but these are my findings.
I feel somewhat cheated by Yamaha with their genos , for which I have paid a lot of money
I hope to come out with an update.
Sincerely to everyone.
louwe46
this has been translated (google) from dutch to english, sorry for the mistakes.

[mikf]

Abby
Mark's comments are unwarranted and well out of line, and I expect that will soon be quietly dealt with. No need to post more pictures, or justify your position, all of us who have played many gigs know how stressful equipment failure can be in front of an audience, no matter the cause.
Mike

[soryt]

Why does everyone feel so personally attacked when some criticism is given to the Genos ?
I also had several problems with the Genos and I have resigned myself to it, these will be resolved with the next update and otherwise I will wait for the Genos 2.
Abby has lost faith in his Genos and was not satisfied with the sound and use of it from the start, and certainly expected more.
But what I am convinced of myself (I have had the entire Tyros series of 1/5) is that exactly the same sound can be made with the Genos as it came from the Tyros 3, a matter of stopping a lot of time in adjusting the EQ and not only in the main screen but in the depth of the instrument.
Sound technically the T3 is quite a step back, but if that is your "holy grail" for good sound, that is of course your personal choice.
I see that you use the "Golden EQ" setting, which can give a nice sound for many, but is a bit too "present" and too direct for old music. I would advise you to spend some time together with another musician in setting your EQ to your own taste,  I am convinced that you will then forget about the Tyros 3 

Soryt 

[Pianoman]

Abby
Mark's comments are unwarranted and well out of line, and I expect that will soon be quietly dealt with. No need to post more pictures, or justify your position, all of us who have played many gigs know how stressful equipment failure can be in front of an audience, no matter the cause.
Mike

Thank you for your comments Mike.

I believe that Mark Z is also the gentleman who chose to call Mr.Kaarlo von Freymann
"A clown in a white suit ."

And now we don't hear from Mr.Freymann very often..

Flinging personal insults at people who are having difficulties with their instrument
is deplorable in my view and should be discouraged.

As I wrote above, I know of no other member who does this kind of thing.
One can politely agree to disagree without being rude.

Best Regards.
Abby.

PS: I'm going to set up my gear now and wanted to proudly display my setup anyway, before
this unfortunate event.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

If you have difficulties with your instrument, you can take a pill for that!!! Your Genos will spring into life

[Yinon]

Hi Everyone,

I must say, regarding the styles, I agree 100% with Pianoman.
I loaded the tyros 5 styles (and older) and I find myself consistently chose the older styles over the new ones.
Even when the same style was created for Genos.

I think it's the drums selection. The Revo drums are not punchy enough ... (In my opinion).

By the way, if I played Jazz,60's and 70's I would chose the Genos styles. I think that it's a matter of the material you are playing.
For rock, pop, ballad - my taste is taking me to previous styles.

Having said that, Yamaha can always say it's there for you ... older and newer ... you need to choose.

I agree with Pianoman that by default, Genos is not set for gigging musician.
It's set for the living-room player.
We need to customize it to get it to rock.

One more note about sound.
I'm using either 2 Bose L1 compact or 2 EV evolve 50's.

Genos is rocking it with flying colors.

Again - this is only my taste and opinion.
Sound is good on the ear of the beholder ...

Cheers!

[Lee Batchelor]

I believe Abby posted a few videos of him playing at various gigs. He is a fine player and entertainer. His post is about two things: the Genos freezing and the Genos sound quality. Let me offer my two cents (or whatever your lowest currency is ).

Genos freezing
The two explanations make sense to me. The quality of the incoming AC power must be pure. I believe (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) the incoming 110 volts or 220 volts is converted to 12 volts DC before the Genos circuits are powered up. I was once told by an electronics service tech that the incoming voltage is not set strictly at 110 volts or 220 volts. Most electronic devices entertain a range of incoming AC voltage. There is also the quality of the incoming voltage. For example, phase, interference, and other variables. So, I would conclude that using a GPS power supply with proper filtering is a wise move for all of us. I can't tell you how many places I've played where the stage circuit was linked to the kitchen, dimmer switches, or fluorescent tube fixtures! These halls were built before the dinosaurs roamed the earth, that is, long before the halls were intended to be used for live electronic music.

I would not discount file corruption. Perhaps a custom style that worked on Abby's T5 doesn't like to play nice with the Genos? I've had similar problems. The solution was to open the custom style, resave it, and then resave the registration to which it belonged. I've had no more problems after that.

Genos sound quality
This is a very personal subject. Abby is a professional player who could care less what his Genos sounds like at home. It must sound perfect wherever he plays. Trouble is, not one hall is the same as the next. There are so many variables with room responses and numbers of patrons. He likely plays in the same venue fairly often, so he knows his halls.

There is also something called "schemata." Schemata is how we perceive information, based on our prior knowledge. Abby played the Tyros series for years before buying his Genos. His brain has a preconceived idea of how his instrument must sound. I believe that when he first sat down to play his Genos, his brain told him, "I only bought this keyboard because I need something for tomorrow's show. It's probably as good as my T5." Problem: the Genos is a totally different animal. Yamaha completely overhauled the sound processor and (in my opinion) brought us much closer to CD quality than any other arranger. Abby must get used to that or adjust his Genos so it sounds more like what his schemata dictates. Fortunately, he has a choice. If there is one thing Yamaha is stellar at, is reverse compatibility. You can make your Genos sound like a PSR2000 if you want to - although why you would want to is beyond me !

Parting thoughts
Abby, it sounds like the EQ Gold settings go against your schemata, which is fine. Try the "out of the box" settings. They are much closer to the T5 sound. You can prune them back even further to you like. I believe you have excellent ears, which means you can get close to finding the sound you want. I don't think the Genos is the problem. It's your lack of time that makes it difficult to find that sound. Perhaps you can get into one of your favorite venues before opening time, and play with some of the Master EQ and Compressor settings to see if you can get the sound close to where you want it?

[Pianoman]

Here's my setup for tonight's gig.
I normally set up in the afternoon then go home and sleep, in order to be fresh for
the gig.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Lee Batchelor]

Nice place, Abby! That hall is long and narrow and has a lot of hard surfaces. Whether you're playing a PSR2000 or Genos, a proper sound is going to be a challenge. A full house would help, but then you must deal with the high ambient background sound level from the people - somewhere around 75 dB. This is not an ideal place to judge the Genos.

[Pianoman]

Hello Lee.

I know, the room is long and you get a hollow sound full of echoes.
I was just explaining the same thing to a hotel guest.

The place fills up completely at night and the background racket is overwhelming.
I actually hear the people from the street already, as I arrive and park my car.

This is only one of the hotels that I play in.
Thank God it's only on Sundays.

I play in a different hotel every day, this is the nearest to my home and one
of 3 where I can pop in quickly to set up and then run home for a nap.

The best acoustics are in a 5 star called the Hotel Fenicia here in Ibiza, where I played
last night. Check it out on Google.

I play there Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.
I'll post a couple of pictures from there the next time.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[panos]

Abby find the reverb hall effect of the styles and voices and put it to...... minus 10!!
I can see a large hall already 
Hard work indeed to make a good sound in places like this one.
I can see why you are struggling for a proper sound all you gigging musicians.
Good luck with your show 

[travlin-easy]

Until my health forced me into retirement 2 years ago, I made my living as a full-time entertainer, performing more than 400 times a year. My biggest fear, and I only encountered this 2 times in more than 30 years, was to have a major equipment failure. Fortunately, I never had a complete keyboard failure, though I did have a corrupt file cause the keyboard to lock up. Like Abby, I had to unplug the keyboard in order to shut it off, then did a minor system restoration when I fired it back up. Also, had an amp die on the job, but I carried a spare and was back in business in just a couple minutes.

I agree with Abby about many of the problems he has, and because of his success with the T3, I think that I would have purchased a remanufactured T3 instead of the Genos, then purchased another for a backup board. When I was still working, I had a complete backup system available and everything was identical.

Good luck, Abby and I sincerely hope you are able to find solutions to the problems you have been experiencing.

Gary

[Lee Batchelor]

Good stuff, Abby. I love the pics !

I find the more "live" the room, the less bass you can use. I see you have a nice sized sub. In those echo chambers, I'd keep the sub really low, if not off. If possible, always shoot across a live room rather than down the length. I also try to set up away from corners and in a position where I only feed the dance floor. People sitting in the wings don't need or want the full fidelity of your playing. To them, you're just background. Happy playing !

[jerryghr]

In the picture it looks like the speakers are in a separate room behind you, with the sound coming out through the doorway.  If this is the case I would bring the speakers outside the room on each side of your keyboard, with a monitor behind you.


Regards,

Jerryghr