Genos made in China ?

[beykock]

Today I received a message from a friend who has an arranger keyboard repair shop.

He had to repair a Medeli A1000 arranger.
Apparently this model is able to save and play Yamaha styles.
He told me the Genos is also manufactured in China by the same producer ( of MEDELI ).

This manufacturer seems to be an important producer of electronic instruments in China.
Apparently this company is producing for more than one arranger keyboard brand, not for Medeli only.

I am not familiar with Medeli but it seems Medeli is a lowend, non expensive arranger keyboard, right ?

My friend received this information directly from the local Chinese Export Contact Employee.

This employee emailed my friend all the Medeli A1000 electronic technical drawings to perform the repair.

I wonder if this information is correct and can be checked ?
I do not know the name of this Chinese manufacturer either.

Hard to believe, right ?

Best regards, Babette

[travlin-easy]

Babette, keep in mind that even if the keyboard is manufactured in China does not imply that it is an inferior quality. It is constructed to the specifications put forth by Yamaha Corporation.

Additionally, individuals that believe that everything made in China is inferior, which is obviously not the case. Anyone that knows anything about world history knows that many of the advanced developments we rely on daily were frequently Chinese innovations. For example, the Chinese invented the compass, latitude and longitude, they constructed the largest sailing ships in the world, many measuring more than 600-feet in length. They circumnavigated the globe long before then Vikings tried to cross the Atlantic. They created our first navigation charts and navigational devices such as the ***tant.

China was the most advanced nation in mining, they made it possible for America and other nations of construct railroad tunnels with the invention of gunpowder and provided a skilled workforce that made today's railroads possible.  The number of documented Chinese inventions that we use daily is beyond imagination.

I suggest reading https://www.amazon.com/Fusang-Chinese-who-built-America/dp/0060140879

https://www.amazon.com/1421-Year-China-Discovered-America/dp/0061564893

Gary

[Fred Smith]

Hard to believe, right ?

I wouldn't be surprised if Genos was manufactured in China. Why would you be?

Cheers,
Feed

[jerryghr]

More info on Medeli.

https://www.medeli.com.hk/r-d

https://www.medeli.com.hk/products


Regards,


Jerryghr

[beykock]

Gary :

Thank you so much for your very interesting reply.
Very useful.

Does it mean this information could be right and the Genos is built in a Chinese manufactury where other branded arranger keyboards ( like Medeli e.g. ) are also built ?

Best wishes, Babette

[beykock]

Hi Fred :

I am not surprised the Genos is built in China.
If I am not wrong it has been confirmed the Genos is built in China.

I am not aware the Chinese manufacturer is building arrangers for several other brands ... that information is new to me.
I just wanted to know if this information could be real.

Cheers, Babette

[KeyboardByBiggs]

This is very common in many industries.

[beykock]

Hi KBB,

Thank you for your feedback !

Now I remember the Korg PA4X is also built in China. Before it has been built in Italy, IMHO.

Would it be possible the Korg PA4X is built in the same Chinese manufactury where Yamaha's Genos is built too ?

Babette

[SeaGtGruff]

The incredible similarities between certain models of Medeli keyboards and certain models from other brands— such as Kurzweil and Roland (or Korg?)— has already been noted in other threads. The outer casings, the dedicated LCD screens, the song recording features, and even the Voice lists and Style lists appear to be identical or nearly so, with the brand names and model names printed on the casings being the only obvious differences between them!

However, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're all the "same" keyboard, just branded differently for marketing purposes. For example, the advertising for the Kurzweil models mentions that they use Kurzweil's acoustic piano samples, and presumably the other companies' models don't use Kurzweil's samples. But the similarities that can be seen by comparing pictures of the keyboards as well as the information in their manuals are pretty astonishing.

To my mind, the three main questions that this raises seem to be as follows:

(1) How deeply do these similarities go? Are they so deep that these could indeed be said to be the "same" keyboard except with different brand names for marketing purposes? I would hope not, and that would seem to imply that the manufacturer who's producing these keyboards for Medeli, Kurzweil, Roland, and other keyboard brands is actually the owner of those brands, or that some other company owns the manufacturers as well. While that sort of thing isn't unheard of in the business world— big companies buy small companies all the time— I don't think it's the only possible explanation.

(2) If these are actually different keyboards that are manufactured from the same parts, is it right or wrong? To me, it doesn't seem much different from different brands of automobiles which use parts that are manufactured by the same parts suppliers— or different brands of refrigerators, televisions, cell phones, etc. It would be nice if every individual company either manufactured their own parts, or had exclusive contracts with the companies that supply them with parts, but that's unrealistic. The real question here is, how much "additional value" or "uniqueness" is being contributed by the companies whose brand names are on the end products? If you and I go shopping at the same grocery store and buy the exact same items— same brand and size of eggs, same brand and type of milk, same brand and type of flour, etc.— and then we each bake a cake, have we baked the "same" cake? Even if we followed the same recipe, we might vary it in different ways according to our personal knowledge and experience— add a little bit more or a little bit less of a certain ingredient than the recipe calls for, or add a pinch of a certain spice that isn't in the recipe, or bake it at a slightly different temperature or for a slightly different amount of time, etc. Any cook who has asked another cook for the recipe to a dish knows that even if you follow the recipe to the letter, the outcome can be different than what you were hoping to duplicate. So as far as "right or wrong," if the issue is whether or not the consumer is being fooled into spending different amounts of money or becoming loyal to a specific brand when in fact it is all really "the same product," I would say that it's okay, that the consumer is not (necessarily) being fooled somehow, that the products are (hopefully) different.

(3) Finally, are the parts manufacturers doing something underhanded? For example, if they had been contracted by Roland, or Yamaha, or other large corporations to produce specific parts according to specific company-owned designs, proprietary information, etc., is it possible that they've offered to supply other companies with those same parts? Judging by the lawsuits that have been filed between Apple and other companies (just to give an example), I'd say that yes, this is a real possibility— which is not necessarily saying that it's actually the case.

[BogdanH]

hi Babette,
It is well known that many (especially consumer electronic) companies in China produce "generic" products. Let's take "multimedia player", "navigation device", etc. for example.. in this case some unknown (at least for western countries) Chinese company produces 20 or more different products (models) without any brand label. These products can be ordered at minimum (for example) 100, 1000 or more pieces, and are very cheap -seen from end buyer perspective. These products are usually ordered by "known" (or startup) companies in western world. Sometimes, "brand logo" is printed on product in final destination, or Chinese company does that at wish. In short, usually only package is made/printed in destination country. That is, if you see some well known brand product, it's quite possible the product itself is Chinese repack. Yes, many western "brands" don't even bother to create a product anymore -they simply order final product and repack.. and sell it at 5-times (or more) higher price. As you can see, such Chinese companies aren't any "threat" to western globe. After all, everyone is happy.. except end consumer sometimes, because he feels being cheated when (s)he realizes same product could be bought MUCH cheaper.
And then we have Chinese companies which have slowly come out of the shadow and had established a "brand status" over the past 10-20 years. Most known would be Lenovo and Huawei. Ten years ago, even Huawei was already a big company (telecommunication infrastructure), nobody seems to knew it. Now, as they started to make hi-quality cell phones and sell them under their own brand (Huawei, that is), everyone knows it.. and they've become a "threat" to western globe. Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola, Sony, etc.. they've fell asleep and they've failed. Now Samsung and Huawei dominate in this department. I won't touch Apple here to avoid a "war" 
As previous posters pointed out, China products aren't synonym for "low quality" anymore.. it's opposite actually. Darn, I guess it's too late for me to start learning mandarin language... btw. My PSR is made in Indonesia -no big deal 

Wish you all fun playing on Yamaha

[sooty8]

Hi Babette

Most of the keyboards are now made in China. In fact in the United Kingdom it's hard to find some things made in the UK or Europe, the labour force costs to much hence this is where China comes in. Our shoes are made in India/Hungary  our clothes are made in
Shi Lanka /India. My wife's sister in Hungary is involved with making Leather seat covers for a top end German car
Manufactures. We have noticed in the UK the quality of the shoes and clothes has declined but you get what you pay for.
The electrical goods as mentioned by previous members are governed by the companies specifications. But we must all remember that to keep costs down the materials used can be changed for cheaper ones and the labour costs making things have to be considered.
My second  organ a Yamaha C605 came in a wooden cabinet came with a wood bench stool, solid tabs strong music rest, but that was in 1984.Since then we have no bench the wood has been turned into plastic the music rest is just strong enough to hold a light music book, the tabs have been replaced with small push buttons. But the price has not really gone up that much over the years. As each Yamaha model is made I always compare what Yamaha has saved on. You will see where the savings were made on the Genos compared with the Tyros 5. Yamaha  has a limit as to what costs they can go to for each model so if the mechanics inside the unit are improving the saving has to be made on the shell, material used and labour costs.

Steve

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Indeed unlike in the old days when we buy something  now we never know where it was made, assembled or designed and that is Ok with me as I  hold the  owner of the brand responsible for the quality of the product  and the service provided.  That maybe a mistake: YAMAHA Rellingen which you would presume is responsible for the Genos keyboards sold in Europe does not answer mails, for which reason some of my friends have decided they will never again  buy anything bearing the YAMAHA brand.   
My over a decade old  Mac Book Pro  has a label "designed in California, assembled in China". So the Chinese knew how to produce  excellent hardware already then.

I have never had any problem with the  assembly/production part of YAMAHA keyboards. (one of my Tyroses stated "assembled in China"   
But I do have a problem with YAMAHA's  attitude , and that is manufactured in Japan.  Yamaha claims my Genos was produced in Japan,  which might very well be Trumpish second truth, but I could not care less. 
But worse, I cannot buy from Amazon because in Europe it is not buying from  AMAZON Company, it is buying from XZY company and you will have to spend a lot of time even to find out where they are located. Returnpriviledges are a joke if you have to send the item  from Finland to Portugal.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[elad770]

Let just quote the bible for you. It will clarify everything:

"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth, All the rest is made in China"

[beykock]

Hi,

Up to now I was always convinced and believed Yamaha were building their own branded instruments in one of their own manufacturies somewhere in the world.
Silly me. 🐻

I did not know Yamaha's arranger keyboards, like the Genos, are built by another manufacturer, a third party, where also competitive arrangers are made.😯

It looks like all arranger keyboard brands are one big family.😁

Babette

[SeaGtGruff]

It looks like all arranger keyboard brands are one big family.😁

I'd say it's like a crazy spin on Animal Farm:

"All arranger keyboards are made differently-- but some are made more differently than others."

[beykock]

Most of these arranger keyboard brands and production units are located in Asia and most customers are located in
Europe, the UK, the USA, Canada and Australia.

The only reason might/could be : technology, experience and
lowest production costs.

I should not be surprised Chinese companies will build and launch their own branded highend arranger keyboards in the near furure at a much lower enduser price.
See the present smartphone industry e.g.

Will Yamaha be able to keep their #1 global market
position ?
Time will tell.

Babette

[panos]

The only reason might/could be : lowest production costs,lowest production costs,lowest production costs.
Oh! and not to forget: lowest production costs!

Babette as a woman you know that there are expencives clothes as there are cheap clothes to wear.
The same worker/tailor in the same factory sews them both.
Gets paid the same

Keep in mind that these boards don't show what is the cost and wage of a "simple" worker in a factory for each county. 
https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105

[franksboard]

what happened to all the products that were made in Japan.years ago i had a tv repair business and from my knowledge if it was built in Japan buy it as it was the best you can buy. i owned  vcrs that were made back in the eighty,s and still work today that were made by Panasonic. before i bought the tyros 5 and the new Genos i alwas bought Techics keyboards up to the last one they made which is the KN7000 which is part of Panasonic.I had many pss models and moved up to all the kn models and never had any issues with any of the boards and still own the KN7000 now and will not part with it as it was the best keyboard they ever made.Yamaha would have a run for their money today if Technics was still making keyboards today.The Genos is a great keyboard with some features and bugs that need attention.after all i believe this is the most expensive keyboard today.Products that came from japan seem to be tested better for issues before released to the public,maybe it is just the fast pace today and hunger for profit and work on issues later,like all the cars made today most have recalls and way to expensive to repair and most people can't repair them selfs,thats why i buy older models and fix them up and last me many years and not braking down on the road and save me thousands.

[mikf]

During their economic recovery in the 70s Japan had well trained and low cost labor and an educated population. The national ethic was for their companies to be successful and grow in the export market, and that was sometimes put ahead of the return on capital statistics that drove Western companies. This was a powerful and very successful combination, but inevitably it led to wage inflation. So although the design and marketing excellence was still there, the low cost manufacturing advantage slowly disappeared. The emergence of low cost competent work forces in other parts of Asia, meant that Japanese corporations have moved towards manufacture in those countries, just as American corporations have. Quality of manufacturing and oversight has improved so much in those other countries, that there is no longer any low quality stigma attached to products made in these areas.       

[Lee Batchelor]

There is only one issue when it comes to companies having their products built "elsewhere." In the case of Yamaha, if they are content to let the Chinese build the Genos (and others), I could care less - with one condition: Yamaha must oversee the process and set strict limits on the inspection process and quality control.

Honda has pretty much turned over the design and building of their cars to the U.S. Specifically, my 2018 Odyssey was built in Alabama. It's been back to the dealer 5 times for build quality issues. This never happened when Honda built the cars in Japan. Where are their inspectors? It's false economics for a company to let some morons build their otherwise nice cars, only to have people by the thousands going for warranty work on processes that should have been done right in the first place!!

I think Yamaha has decided to keep all the design stuff in Japan, but let the cheaper folks build them. As long as Mr. Yamaha and his underlings ensure the Chinese are building the keyboards to the quality Yamaha did in Japan, I'm good to go. If they go the route of Honda, we'll all be in big trouble. There will be no time to play gigs or in the living room because your keyboards will always be on the repair bench!!

[Dick Rector]

Many Yamaha keyboards are build in Surabaya and other places in Indonesia. I never had a serious problem with them.

[Patrick]

Hi all, the built quality of the Yamaha keyboard are not as good as before! Just plastic and much more problems; screens, buttons, keys, mother board, .... i hope to pay for a better KB quality! Yamaha is the leader of the market but not for the quality of the KB! All the best Patrick

[Wouter1972]

I don't see how geographical location is key to keyboard QUALITY: the specs of the board are set by Yamaha and whether they are produced in China, Finland or the moon doesn't make any difference.

I do agree that COST can be a factor to produce it in a specific region.

[travlin-easy]

Patrick, keep in mind that some plastics are as strong as steel, yet only a fraction of the weight. Yamaha uses high impact plastic in the construction of their outer shells, and the plastic used on the buttons of the TOTL arrangers are the same with most manufacturers. The only manufacturer that still uses steel cases is a Roland, which is extremely heavy. When I was still working on stage, I wanted all my equipment to be light weight.

Gary

[pjd]

Yamaha must oversee the process and set strict limits on the inspection process and quality control.

Right on, Lee! I had a long conversation with a chap who was responsible for manufacturing an electronics-based product in China. Specs alone aren't enough. Continual oversight and product sampling/evaluation are necessary. Yamaha engineers are sharp and I expect they will get this right.

All the best -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks PJ.

I ran a service business for 25 years, with 10 employees. I set the height of the bar. When an employee didn't reach "the bar" I was ultimately responsible. Needless to say, I concentrated on educating my employees and following up with encouragement and quality control. For the most part it worked.

Honda, as large as they are compared to me, could learn a lesson from Yamaha, little business people like me, and thousands of others. In my view, Honda has lost their tone. I'm sure the Alabama plant has a giant poster at the entrance gate that reads, "The beatings will continue until moral improves!" Put another way, they lost control of their quality when they started letting others build their cars and didn't pay attention to procedures. The endless service and warranty calls are costing them more money than doing it right in the first place.

Fortunately, Yamaha is still meeting the mark. When Yamaha's appetite for profit becomes more important than their quality control (like Honda), they'll fall apart. Once again, I don't see Yamaha letting that happen.

[Patrick]

Yes Gary the plastic butons are strong enought but they doesn't works perfectly; we've had some problems with them on the S970; we've had an up date but the problem is still here; on my PSR S2100 the disk drive was the main problem but the keyboard was perfect for me! i've had a lot of freinds around me with problems on their PSR S series; Tyros are of course much better! Have a good day Gary, cheers Patrick

[Amwilburn]

What problems have you had on your s970? If it's under warranty, Yamaha will take care of it.

Anyway, yes Babette, the Genos are made in China (under Yamaha's own QA control); Tyros were made in Japan. I'll take the Genos any day; Yamaha actually has their own plant.  I don't think they don't trust anyone else to do quality control (nor should they!). The claim that medeli's play the .sty format doesn't mean anything; the fact is, most of the major manufacturers used to comply to the same .sty (even Roland; if you took old Roland styles, and change the extension to .sty, they'd play on Yamaha).

Medeli are a pretty big Hong Kong brand, and they actually supply entry level models for several other big brands (I saw their SD500 series drum repackaged as an Alesis, for example, and they used to have *identical* keyboards to Panasonic (I don't know if copied, or supplied, but I suspect the latter). They are most similar in quality to Casio stuff. I never tried loading a Yamaha style into one, but I'll bring my usb stick with me next time we're in HK and try it out.

I *can* tell you, though, the Genos has *so* many custom instrument sounds, that even if the style file is compatible, most of the sounds won't be there. If you'd like to try locally, stick a Genos style into a DGX660. It'll *play*, technically, but it won't sound anything like the original (Revo drums get mapped incorrectly, megavoice disappears, and so do a lot of Articulation 1 & 2 voices).

[dai phan]

I have no problems with "Made in China". The labor is cheap so that makes sense. What I learn over the years is that I had enough of " cheap Chinese knock offs" of the original. For a fictional example " Tairos" for 2k instead of 5 of the original. They offer so much for so cheap compared to the original but they short out, failed to work after a few weeks... Simply junks ! I have several large reef tanks and I tried saving money by buying cheap Chinese knock offs equipments... Never again! Dai

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Probably the Black Hole of Calcutta next