Genos and Competition ?

[panos]

Both instruments sound great when the keyboardist chooses how they must sound in each case and not use the "box" settins, styles,voices,effects etc.

Vali is well observed that reverb and hall effects are everywhere in Yamaha's preset styles.
If you want to play for a gig, prepare your sound and your styles accordingly.
If you want to make more complex orchestrations use regs with multiple style parts and do the same.

I play in my home and with headphones on (so there is no reverb and hall effects problems).
I also play mostly 80's,synthesizer and nowdays Dance music so there is no such thing as a "live" band sound in these kinds of music.Using effects is  a "must".

If someone is having trouble with these kind of stuff he can always ask for help in the forum,do some reading and watch some videos.
I always read on the foroum about "muted" parts, wrong preset OTS etc.
Why don't we all just modify the styles and resave them once and for all?

Is there anyone who owns a Genos or a Tyros or a Psr S that his keyboard doesn't allow him to do so?

[valimaties]

Hi all.

I don't say it must sounds like someone, Mike. How does sound "Live"?! It's simple: Not agglomerate! What means that? So lets see: some of genre can accept a little bit of reverb/hall, like 16 Beat, which can accept more than  8 Beat, which can accept more than Disco/Dance which can accept more than Rock&Roll... Again, what means that? That means, the faster it is, much less echo/hall/reverb you can give to a style channel. What channels can have a lit bit more hall/reverb? Those which have some interventions, like Phrases channels. In my opinion, the instruments which give as the rhythm's beat, like Drums, Guitars, Bass (not even 1 % hall/reverb), must have small amount of these DSPs. Maybe they sound good on small woofers or small PA systems, like 100-250 W, but if you play on a big stage with big PA system or Line Array System, it's another sound there. The frequencies respond in other way on a loud volume. Make a test with any of your system, with the same settings, play with a volume of 25%, after 5 minutes play with a volume of 40-60%, and finally play with 80%, like audience wants when they are on the ring, to feel the groove, to feel the rhythm. The sound changes for each level , because louder you are, the room starts resonate, or even the free environment.

So, in conclusion, I think Live means "understanding" very well, each of the instrument's notes and hits. Yes, I love also the DSP effects over some of style's channels, but in some conditions (most of them) in gigs, it's a disaster using them. At home, with my headphones, or my HS7 sounds awesome with DSP, but like a CD. I feel great, like it has to be, in my studio

Regards,
Vali

[beykock]

I would like to thank all of you for your very interesting feedback !

Once again I learned a lot !👍👍👍

I agree wirh Gary : " One cannot have it all ! "

Best wishes, Babette

[DrakeM]

That said, for five years I had my own band, a 5-piece country music group, consisting of a drummer, bass player, fiddle player and two guitar players, both of which were vocalists as well. We usually had a good time performing together, though when the free drinks began coming in from various audience members, timing would gradually worsen. By the end of the night, there were times when I wondered how the bass player could still stand upright. So, sounding like a live band is not always a great thing.

Gary

Hay, quit picking on us Bass Players there. 

For me it was my drummer, I never knew what his mood for the night was going to be. Was he going to speed things up or wanna beat the heck out his drums tonight. You can't turn the drummer down in a live band but you sure can on an Arranger.

That said I do miss playing with other people a lot.

Back to the topic: I think the Korg having some of their style parts EIGHT MEASURES LONG really adds to the LIVE SOUND effect. Yamaha really ought to BEGIN doing this for at least some of their styles.

I have in the past extended my Yamaha styles parts out to 8 measures in order to record PHR needed riffs to the style, generally HORN sections. Just this week I was experimenting with a country style in which I extended the MAIN A to 8 bars. I spent about 20 minutes coming up with a very good guitar picking riff for the 8 bars.

It was hard to figure out what would work, as you need to record the full 8 bars in the key of C. Keep in mind the riff also had to sound correct when I use the pattern when playing over an F and G chord too.

I wish I understood more about music theory as that might speed things up creating such riffs. But I was still able to create something professional sounding with a bit of trial and error recording.

So, if I can do it ... Yamaha get on the STICK guys.

Regards
Drake

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Let's remember one thing about the competition to the Yamaha brand:
The PRSTUTORIAL site clearly puts the YAMAHA brand far above all the competition, they are not even CLOSE.....

Regards
Drake

Thanks Drake.

I understand and accept this site exists to support YAMAHA's marketing, just read the rules for posting.

But when it is overdone, like claiming the Genos was very good at 1.1 when it definitely was not "gig-ready"   it does not serve its purpose.
The obvious  "alternate truth" made me not buy the Genos for quite a while.  I actually felt the instrument my dealer gave me for trial  was defective. And he agreed.  It was not.  But unfortunately there were a lot of people I am sure were not paid for their contributions by Yamaha who joined the the indiscriminate praise choire.
I believe the byas should be a bit less evident. There is a German saying, "man merkt die Absicht und wird verstimmt"   e.g. you notice the intent and get disgruntled.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[travlin-easy]

Kaarlo, Yamaha does not, and has never paid anyone on this site for any statements, or anything else, for that matter. Keep in mind this is essentially a Yamaha support site that is not funded by anyone other than individual contributions by forum members. Because of this, it will, obviously, place its emphasis on Yamaha arranger keyboards - not other brands. Sure, most of us are more than willing to help owners of Korg, Roland, etc... with any problems within their area of expertise, and this has happened many times in the past.

Now, when you got that first Genos, in YOUR opinion, it was not gig ready. Well, most keyboards are not "GIG READY" fresh out of the box. They ALL need to be tuned, registrations created, etc... I have owned more than 2 dozen arranger keyboards in the years I was a full-time entertainer and none of them went on stage until I spent up to 3 months getting everything ready - none! As I stated in another thread, there is no "One Size Fits All" arranger keyboard - it just does not exist, especially when you are an on-stage musician/entertainer.

All the best,

Gary

[beykock]

Hi Kaarlo,

Thanks for your input.

I would like to know why you finally have decided to buy a Genos ?

Do you regret this decision ?
What are your plans for the near future ?
Is it your intention to sell your Genos and replace it ?

Looking forward to reading your reply soon.

Thanks and best regards, Babette

[mikf]

Drake - know what you mean, recording phrases over a single chord in style creator and guessing how they will sound with multiple chord changes is quite frustrating.
I know quite a bit about music theory but it doesn't really help, it's still largely trial And error. And it's not quick to do the trial bit. You have to save, exit, select , play, and work out what goes wrong. Then re enter style creator and repeat the process several times.  And I found sometimes no matter how long you spend it never comes out good, especially if the song has a lot of complex chords. It's a long time now since I have even attempted this. It's probably best just to play these phrases live, or keep them very short!

Mike

[panos]

There are plenty of riffs and little phrases that are Yamaha made so they sound good and we can copy and paste them in our styles.

Also if we wish we can have up to 32 bars long parts.
Copy something from another style and paste them in phr1 for the first 8 bars.
For the rest 8 bars copy something else in phr2 and paste them from bar 9 to bar 16.
For bar 17-24 use the same pattern of phr1 but change the voice of the organ.
For bar 25-32 use the same pattern from phr2 abut change the voice of the organ.
(Style Creator Assembly Function,Bar Copy-Bar Clear,Edit Menu-> Copy Bars etc)

Another method is to create two or three almost similar styles but with some changes to each part and use them for a specific song.
We move to the parts not only by using the style control but also with the registration  buttons.

If we want to play just a couple of parts for a song we can still buy something from the psr E series and save money.

Telling that Yamaha style parts are too simplified well, we seem to have paid for a lot of functions we don't use or don't want to learn how to use them.

I am still waitting to see a Genos owner that can take the ready made drum patterns from a DAW and use them as audio drum parts in a style to see how "real" drums sound on a Genos.

[beykock]

Hi Panos and Drake :

I am very interested in adding, copying and pasting riffs and phrases in existing Yamaha styles. 👍

I have never done that before.
Completely new to me though.

Are there video's available how to proceed ?
If so, where can I find them ?

Thank you for your help !
Best wishes, Babette

[panos]

The official tutorial from Yamaha about the Assembly function:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGatUmhVqw&t=104s

One of our members started a Genos tutorial series.You could ask him to do some tutorials about more "simple" functions too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogTaq1jimOw

The menus of Genos may be a lot nicer than in our Tyros,Psr S,A3000,CVP but the big majority and the most important functions are in our keyboards too.

As for the non existing midi to style function in Yamaha keyboards we can use the midi2style program of Jørgen Sørensen
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm
In the case a part doesn't sound correctly in some chords we don't use it and just replace it with something else.

And the last thing we can learn if someone wants to go far more deeper into style creation by reccording some parts by himself as Drake did, is to see what Yamaha is doing.
For example:
How Yamaha created a guitar riff?
Which notes they used? Which parameters it has in high notes,low notes etc and make that riff sound good in all chords?   

Of course I don't recommend you to learn style creation from scratch.
But as long as we have chosen to play the keyboard and not a piano, we should learn to do some stuff by ourselves (the assembly function is not that hard) and don't expect from an engineer to know how a style should sound for a song he never heard or for a room he never visited or to come to check our ears if we can hear all the frequencies equally or not.

We keep asking for more and more functions while we don't use the existing ones.

[travlin-easy]

We keep asking for more and more functions while we don't use the existing ones.

I agree 100 percent. I have been constantly amazed at the number of individuals that utilize less than 10 percent of the keyboard's features, yet those same individuals continue to ask for more and more functions - functions they likely will rarely, or never use.

Gary

[beykock]

Many thanks for your great help, Panos !👍

Babette

[Bachus]

No Bachus, it's not that! I disagree one more time and I tell you why!
Most of factory styles (Yamaha or Korg) meet only 8 channels (Yamaha) and only one CV on Korg, all 8, on both Y and K. Why does Korg seems more live but Yamaha don't? Yamaha uses a lot of DSPs as Hall, Delay, etc. These types of DSPs will rich frequency range, and in some cases it will do a lot of trouble instead of a good sound. This rich DSP sound is more like a studio sound, not a live band sound. Did you made any test with a spectral view of a song played with DSP active and with DSP inactive, to see the differences? (DSP - Hall, Delay.. not distortion, or compression, to be clear)

K uses its sound board on the main out with almost 10-20dB boost. It's a huge boost, but this gives the power in K sound.

Personally, I have eliminate entire the hall on drums or any other instrument that is part of beat. Brasses or pianos, or other instruments I write on PHR channels and PAD, I give them 10-20 units of custom hall DSP, edited on frequency, to meet only high frequency, because if it gives me hall on low frequency, will alter in the bad way the sound.

We do in almost every time our gigs in large rooms, restaurants or large ballrooms, with 200-300 peoples. In most of the cases the rooms already have a bit of hall in, or a delay on high notes, or a very bad acoustic for low frequencies. If I use DSP hall over room's hall, the people in that room will not hear clearly what I sing and the entire sound quality is a disaster.

Did you hear a live band? How many bands did you hear using DSPs on beat instruments (drums, bass, accompaniment guitars, etc) ? Yes, indeed, is good in small rooms, but will not give you sensation of a live band. If you close the eyes and hear the sound you will bet to a CD playing, not a real player! That's the sensation!

Regards
Vali

Its not just DSP...

But yes, Yamaha uses more DSP..
And yes,  on the Yamaha as you indicate the the dsp is more a natural part of the sound

But then... on Yamaha you can switch dsp off..
While Korg does not have the same levels of DSP as the Yamaha
So the pa4x does not have the same potential..

Genos is a DSP powerhouse which adds much of the verstallity and is responsible for much of the sound we on Yamaha arrangers love so much. Yamaha is the king of DSP power as well as quallity where it comes to hardware solutions. Its the reason their mixers are so much praised.

Now really, i think your knowledge is admirable
But you seem to forget the simple thing that its much easier to remove something to get the results you want, then to add something... wether its dsp, mute some tracks.. and thats the power of Yamaha.. there often is to much.. but its easier to addapt to get less..

[beykock]

Hi Bachus,

Maybe giggers are dealing with other problems you are not familiar with since you are not a gigger, am I right ?
BTW, neither am I. Not my cup of tea : stage fright.

As far as I know you are a " home musician " or am I wrong ?

In the earlier days I was playing in a band but that is a complete other experience.

Nowadays I am only working in my small private home studio. Alone.
A place where I feel good, where I can do what I want.
Making a lot of mistakes is allowed there. Nobody is complaining.😉

These giggers can teach me lot about sound quality of in- and outdoor performances.

Each situation and place is different and a perfect sound check is not always so easy to do if the performer is a OMB.

Playing music in front of an audience is a complete different world and absolutely not a piece of cake, IMHO.

Most pro giggers are paid and mistakes are NEVER allowed.
Gigging is their income ... do not forget !

Giggers are expected to entertain and to please their audience.
WOW ... not so easy, right ?

Cheers, Babette

[valimaties]

...
We keep asking for more and more functions while we don't use the existing ones.

Hi panos.
I'm not agree with this! If someone does not use some functions because didn't know they are present in keyboard's software, or they didn't read manual to know what certain function does, it does not means someone else doesn't use them. And if they are people who needs extra functions, let us keep asking I bet it will be more easy to work with your keyboards if Yamaha will implement functions that only some advanced users use them right now, by PC Software.

All the best,
Vali

[Misu]

Hello to everyone,
I'm one live time owner of Yamaha, last PSR S970 from 2 years ago.
One year ago I bought also PA 1000 to see how it is.
If you go to the store and test both regarding the sound, what do you hear, you never choose Korg.
If you go to home to play on headphone, internal speakers or small speakers you never choose Korg.
If you need international styles without custom voices, this site and resources are amazing.
On another hand, all the gigs where I was or I was present, with both brands on stage, Korg was used for all except the international styles. On this corner of world, from 12 hours of party it is around of one hour of international music.
I usually like to do things, voices or styles for myself or friends; I never touch the computer for Korg except to copy something to stick. I don't need from any kind computer program, everything inside of the arranger.
If 100 peoples make 100 new voices on Yamaha community with YEM and CPF never will be for all, this means less resources less creativity more money to spend for your needs.
One traditional pack here can be max. 800€. Happiness.
Korg must to thank Yamaha for the presence and Yamaha community for all these nice international styles.
Yamaha community must to thank Korg (to don't have <KEM>) for all the voices and styles which were exported to improve Yamaha resource. Here best Yamaha packs makers choose this way on his work.
Of course this is my personal opinion and is true in my country.
Best keyboards ever: Yamorg or Komaha
All my best regards
Mihai

[beykock]

Hi Mihai,

Thank you for your interesting input.

Are you using your Korg PA1000 for live performances ?
If so, are you and your audience pleased with the sound quality ?

Your comments would be very much appreciated.

Babette

[Bachus]

Hi Bachus,

Maybe giggers are dealing with other problems you are not familiar with since you are not a gigger, am I right ?
BTW, neither am I. Not my cup of tea : stage fright.

As far as I know you are a " home musician " or am I wrong ?

In the earlier days I was playing in a band but that is a complete other experience.

Nowadays I am only working in my small private home studio. Alone.
A place where I feel good, where I can do what I want.
Making a lot of mistakes is allowed there. Nobody is complaining.😉

These giggers can teach me lot about sound quality of in- and outdoor performances.

Each situation and place is different and a perfect sound check is not always so easy to do if the performer is a OMB.

Playing music in front of an audience is a complete different world and absolutely not a piece of cake, IMHO.

Most pro giggers are paid and mistakes are NEVER allowed.
Gigging is their income ... do not forget !

Giggers are expected to entertain and to please their audience.
WOW ... not so easy, right ?

Cheers, Babette

So yes,

But what are you trying to tell me?

[beykock]

Bachus,

In this message I have trIed to tell/explain there is a huge difference ( night and day ) between a commercial live performance ( in- and/or outdoor, in front of an audience ) and  playing ( alone ) at home where the sound situation is perfect without the presence of a critical audience and where mistakes are allowed and always can/will be corrected and/or repaired easily.

Babette

[travlin-easy]

Babette, your assessment is absolutely spot on. I have been performing in front of audiences since age 17 and I can assure anyone that it is a totally different approach than playing at home or in a home studio.

Not only must you be a great musician, but you must also be a great entertainer. Additionally, you must be able to sing, on key and with perfect timing.

There are no second chances. If you screw up, everyone notices, at least this is true for the majority of our audiences. I was on stage until age 76 and I was always asked to return. There is a lot of pressure on the OMB entertainer to do it right every time they perform, and never miss a beat or word in a song. At home, you can redo anything you wish, and there is no one there to throw rotted fruit at you,

All the best,

Gary

[mikf]

Babette
There isnt such a huge difference. When I was playing gigs I didn't actually play any differently than when I was playing at home, with the exception that you don't usually experiment on stage in front of an audience.
What is coming out here is that  different things are important to different people. And not always for logical reasons. I would say that most really experienced performers know deep down that if you don't perform very well, small differences in sound quality will not matter a damn, and are pretty subjective anyway. And that within acceptable norms, if you do perform well, nobody will notice.
Mike

[EileenL]

Yes Mike I was the same. What you saw was what you got at home or gigs. I did do more preparation in the way of setting up my set list in the order asked for and selecting styles and registrations before hand. I don't sing so I had to make sure everything sounded good in the performance.
  At home I will just pick a style and then start playing songs that suit the style I have chosen. This is great fun and very relaxing. I do record the occasional song for posting on my forum and also prefer listening to Instrumental performances rather than Vocal. I like to hear how different people interpret 
the same songs.

[beykock]

Hi Mike,

For a lot of reasons ( I already explained earlier ), I have a lot of respect and admiration for pro giggers ( OMB ).

Pro giggers ( in my perception ) are pro musicians.
They are excellent  keyboard players, pro singers,  great entertainers and last but not least " entrepreneurs " without personnel who have to earn their daily income by making music only.

Not an easy life, I guess :
high costs, hard work and almost no family life.

IMHO 90% ( or maybe more ) of this forum members are home players ( hobbyists ) and approx. 10% are pro musicians. Am I right ?

Babette

[pjd]

I have found a hen's tooth. My local Guitar Center has a Korg Pa700 on the floor! This is the first time that I have found a demo Korg in the Boston area -- ever!

I don't want to provoke a Korg vs. Yamaha discussion. After trying some voices and styles, I hear and respect why some musicians prefer Korg. Vive la difference! Having been spoiled by Genos, I'm quite happy with my Genos. I did like Korg's Hammond B3 and even folks on the Yamaha Synth forum would agree that Yamaha needs to strengthen drawbar organ and rotary speaker emulation.

I didn't have time to try and evaluate workflow, etc. Maybe some other time. I have too much going on in real life, right now.

All the best -- pj

P.S. I like the Wurlitzer EP, too. It totally nails "What'd I Say".

[travlin-easy]

Babette, I would think, from my experience on this forum, that only about 2 percent of the players are pro performers and performing on stage as entertainers for a full time living. And, I could probably name them all. Sure, there were also some weekend performers as well, but those individuals had full time employment in fields other than music.

As a full-time, professional, musician/entertainer/vocalist you need to also be a bookkeeper, advertising agent, tax accountant, costume designer, public relations manager, transportation agent, accountant, salesperson, etc... On top of this, you had to find time to be a parent, spouse, caretaker when your spouse was ill, mow the lawn, take care of the gardens, make household repairs, and if you will lucky, find a few hours a night to sleep.

When a big job was coming up the next day, I often found sleep was nearly impossible, often lying awake in bed thinking of every aspect of the job and what songs I was going to perform in front of 1,000 people that I had never encountered in the past and had no idea of their musical likes or dislikes. Fortunately, I have always been able to read a crowd within a few minutes and get things going without a hitch. This, for many, is a very daunting aspect of being on stage. In order to cope with this, many musicians take to drugs and alcohol, which killed many of the best performers.

Now, Mike is correct that small differences in sound will not be noticed by most audience members, and for this I was always grateful. However, those sound differences were often masked by the overall sound quality of our PA systems used in the past, which were frequently distorted at higher volumes. When performers switched to vertical array systems such as Bose L1 PAS and L1 Compact systems, the clarity was such that everyone could hear every note and word perfectly, and the coverage was so much improved that everyone in the entire venue was quite aware when you made even a minor mistake. My wife was the first to notice this when I first purchased the Bose PAS system and she was in the audience of a noisy nite club. At the end of a performance she said, "Wow - you hit a couple sour notes when you performed the high notes of New York, New York." I'm sure she was not the only person in that audience that heard this. I had made a mistake when I started the song and played it in a key that was at the very top end of my vocal range.

Good topic, everyone,

Gary

[DonM]

It depends on the venue and the audience as to how discerning they are.
I've found that if you get the "hook" right and most of the words, most people are satisfied. 
In a concert situation, the audience may be more knowledgeable and know all the words, and actually be listening very closely. 
I've done four to six nights a week for the past 45 years.   A lot of it has been in the same venue, in the club room at a high-end dining establishment.  Sometimes you do a song perfectly; sometimes you have to "fake" a request and, as mentioned, do enough of it right for them to recognize.  Most don't listen that closely as they are eating, talking and texting. 
The real task for me is to keep things fresh.  I have lots of repeat customers and have to know which songs are their favorites, yet try not to get in a rut and do the same songs the same way over and over.
I suppose that is one reason I change arrangers a lot.  I currently have one of every brand; Korg, Roland, Ketron and Yamaha.  For me the Korg fits best in most occasions, but all are fantastic these days.
This week, in addition to my regular nights, I have an outdoor pool party Sunday and a private function in the main dining room where I work on Monday, a night where the place is usually closed.  I have at least two of everything, so will be able to leave all my regular gear in place tonight and still be able to handle the other two jobs.
These days I very seldom play or practice at home.  If I want to learn a new song, I'll listen to it several times, write down the chords and lyrics and save it all to my lyrics folder, or to Songbook or Registration as it may me.
I often experiment with these on the job, but after everyone has left.  When I'm comfortable with it I add it to the "regular" list.
Sometimes it's nece$$ary to do a request I don't know very well.  I can Google the lyrics and chords and do most songs, IF I'm familiar with the melody. 
It's a very interesting way to make a living!

[vbdx66]

I have found a hen's tooth. My local Guitar Center has a Korg Pa700 on the floor! This is the first time that I have found a demo Korg in the Boston area -- ever!

I don't want to provoke a Korg vs. Yamaha discussion. After trying some voices and styles, I hear and respect why some musicians prefer Korg. Vive la difference! Having been spoiled by Genos, I'm quite happy with my Genos. I did like Korg's Hammond B3 and even folks on the Yamaha Synth forum would agree that Yamaha needs to strengthen drawbar organ and rotary speaker emulation.

I didn't have time to try and evaluate workflow, etc. Maybe some other time. I have too much going on in real life, right now.

All the best -- pj

Hi PJ,

Maybe in a few months time you'll get this demo PA700 on sale at a bargain price... might be fun to try out this board at the side of the Genos...

Regards,

Vinciane

[beykock]

Hi Gary :

Very interesting how you describe how the daily life of a pro gigger looks like.

I think you are right that only 2% of this group are pro's.

For me real pro's are those giggers who have only one source ( making music ) of income like our friend Abby e.g.

Like most other pro musicians ( drummers, guitar players etc. ) giggers have no personnel.
They all have their own business but they are always alone ... a vulnerable and risky work situation, I guess.

I understand some giggers have made agreements with other giggers to help each other out in case of emergency
( sickness e.g. ) to avoid customers are running away.

All by all a very special profession.

Best regards, Babette

[mikf]

I've found that if you get the "hook" right and most of the words, most people are satisfied. 

Very down to earth statement don .LOL .. But only true if you already do the basics well - like pick suitable songs, sing in tune and play competently - as you and Gary definitely do
I'll bet that no one has ever told either of you the performance sucks because you overused the DSPs or because the styles are not well written, or because you need to tweak the equalizer. Unless it is amazingly bad, this is the stuff that only the player might notice, and even then more down to personal preference than good or bad.
Mike